Bible Character Study: Ahasuerus

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Dec 18, 2013
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#41
My bad again having some computer issues this week so won't be posting as frequently.

On this last post indeed I have heard this before. It's indeed part of the debate of Ahasuerus identity. Indeed it is something of a conundrum whether it was Mordecai or one of his ancestors taken into captivity. The conundrum isn't solely focused on Xerxes though, for if Ahasuerus were Artaxerxes that would mean Mordecai have to be even older since Artaxerxes is Xerxes successor. Also a clear reading of the chapter does seem to indicate Kish may have been the one exiled. Another point is the secular sources cannot be trusted for an accurate duration of Xerxes reign or a gauge of his character as the secular sources come from revisionists and the ancient sources of the revisionists were the Hellenists. They serve some function I suppose, but we must be mindful they were his big enemies. Good post for the consideration though.

I will make here a counter-argument from the vantage point that Xerxes may actually be the best fit with the identity of Ahasuerus. The first hint is indeed as we've discussed earlier the first verse of the first chapter indicating this is at a time of Medo-Persian empire's height. This narrows it down to three basic Persian kings; Darius, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes. For my opinion it is actually the super short last chapter that provides some of the most compelling evidence. The first verse of chapter ten states that Ahasuerus laid tribute upon the nations of the seas, which typically means Europe. This would support the view that Ahasuerus is either Darius or Xerxes whom were both the foremost Persian kings in dealing with Europe and warring with them during their reigns. Also to note while my naive virgin self is somewhat turned off by the harem stuff, just putting those feelings to the side that also is somewhat a supporting proof as we are told in the Bible Ahasuerus had a harme and the Xerxes of secular/greek history is perhaps the most famous womanizer of all history.

The next few verses about Mordecai may be the most vital though as we are informed Mordecai is held in high esteem, perhaps even becoming something of a prime minister. The reason this is important is it is actually known that there were a few important Mordecai's in the secular proofs as part of Xerxes regime, with one of them even serving in an official capacity living in Susa/Shushan to boot. This would seem smoking gun evidence that Xerxes is indeed Ahasuerus.

The Quest for the Historical Mordecai | David Clines - Academia.edu

Though I concede the puzzle isn't over yet as there are still other contention factors such as you bring up such as whether Mordecai or his ancestor (most theorized to be Kish) was taken into captivity, the true duration of Xerxes reign, and a host of complication factors by secular sources which are mostly revisionists from thousands of years after the fact and the ancient Greeks whom were big time enemies of Xerxes and the Persians and did not write favorably about them to put it mildly. I suppose though that's what makes the study fun, it's kinda like a big intellectual jigsaw puzzle.
 
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I

Is

Guest
#42
My bad again having some computer issues this week so won't be posting as frequently.

On this last post indeed I have heard this before. It's indeed part of the debate of Ahasuerus identity. Indeed it is something of a conundrum whether it was Mordecai or one of his ancestors taken into captivity. The conundrum isn't solely focused on Xerxes though, for if Ahasuerus were Artaxerxes that would mean Mordecai have to be even older since Artaxerxes is Xerxes successor. Also a clear reading of the chapter does seem to indicate Kish may have been the one exiled. Another point is the secular sources cannot be trusted for an accurate duration of Xerxes reign or a gauge of his character as the secular sources come from revisionists and the ancient sources of the revisionists were the Hellenists. They serve some function I suppose, but we must be mindful they were his big enemies. Good post for the consideration though.

I will make here a counter-argument from the vantage point that Xerxes may actually be the best fit with the identity of Ahasuerus. The first hint is indeed as we've discussed earlier the first verse of the first chapter indicating this is at a time of Medo-Persian empire's height. This narrows it down to three basic Persian kings; Darius, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes. For my opinion it is actually the super short last chapter that provides some of the most compelling evidence. The first verse of chapter ten states that Ahasuerus laid tribute upon the nations of the seas, which typically means Europe. This would support the view that Ahasuerus is either Darius or Xerxes whom were both the foremost Persian kings in dealing with Europe and warring with them during their reigns. Also to note while my naive virgin self is somewhat turned off by the harem stuff, just putting those feelings to the side that also is somewhat a supporting proof as we are told in the Bible Ahasuerus had a harme and the Xerxes of secular/greek history is perhaps the most famous womanizer of all history.

The next few verses about Mordecai may be the most vital though as we are informed Mordecai is held in high esteem, perhaps even becoming something of a prime minister. The reason this is important is it is actually known that there were a few important Mordecai's in the secular proofs as part of Xerxes regime, with one of them even serving in an official capacity living in Susa/Shushan to boot. This would seem smoking gun evidence that Xerxes is indeed Ahasuerus.

The Quest for the Historical Mordecai | David Clines - Academia.edu

Though I concede the puzzle isn't over yet as there are still other contention factors such as you bring up such as whether Mordecai or his ancestor (most theorized to be Kish) was taken into captivity, the true duration of Xerxes reign, and a host of complication factors by secular sources which are mostly revisionists from thousands of years after the fact and the ancient Greeks whom were big time enemies of Xerxes and the Persians and did not write favorably about them to put it mildly. I suppose though that's what makes the study fun, it's kinda like a big intellectual jigsaw puzzle.
It's like Mr. Jones said:
This biblical assertion is rejcted because, having already erroneously presumed that Ahasuerus is Xerxes, the appearence of the verse as it stands would force Mordecai to be at least 113 years old (597-484 BC [the 3rd year of Xerxes; Esther 1:1-3] at the beginning of the story (if he were a newborn when carried away). Moreover, Mordecai would have been a minimum of 125 at the close of the book when he became "prime minister" in the king's 12th year (Essther 10:3, cp. 3:7). Though this would be possible, it is somewhat unlikely as only one man's age has been reported in Scripture as being that great since the days of "the judges" (over 700 years!). Besides, as Esther is Mordecai's first cousin (Esther 2:7), she would tend to be too old to fit the context of the story.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#43
It's like Mr. Jones said:
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I disagree with Jones then. The Bible outright calls Ahasuerus "Xerxes" in some translations as that's the direct translation, but the only contention is that the name Xerxes/Ahasuerus could also be seen as a title since it means King/prince/royalty. I believe this is why Xerxes is the prime suspect in Ahasuerus' identity.

Furthermore if it is actually Kish that was carried into captivity Mordecai would be the right age. Furthermore even if we assume Mordecai was the one carried into cpativity it's not necessarily unheard of in the Bible for certain righteous OT men to live long lives. On top of that since Artaxerxes came after Xerxes this line of thinking almost certainly rules Artaxerxes out of the running.

On top of that the surrounding proofs seem to coalesce around Xerxes as well such as the Persian Empire being at its zenith therefore narrowing it down to Darius, Xerxes, or Artaxerxes. The character flaws of the harem and the king's famous anger prevalent in both the book of Esther and the secular sources about Xerxes (ie: Herodotus). The dealings with the "isles of the seas" which leaves only Darius and Xerxes as possible. The real lynchpin in my opinion is it being known Xerxes had a high official named Mordecai in his court, particularly in Shushan/Susa which fits very well with Book of Esther.

Good stuff though for the parsing and study either way, but I am heading out for a bit, might be back later tonight, but not sure since my computer is on the fritz lol. If not I'll be back tomorrow hopefully. Lol but by all means ya'll can take this discussion wherever it so pleases ya'll now that book of Esther has been posited.
 
I

Is

Guest
#44
I disagree with Jones then. The Bible outright calls Ahasuerus "Xerxes" in some translations as that's the direct translation, but the only contention is that the name Xerxes/Ahasuerus could also be seen as a title since it means King/prince/royalty. I believe this is why Xerxes is the prime suspect in Ahasuerus' identity.

Furthermore if it is actually Kish that was carried into captivity Mordecai would be the right age. Furthermore even if we assume Mordecai was the one carried into cpativity it's not necessarily unheard of in the Bible for certain righteous OT men to live long lives. On top of that since Artaxerxes came after Xerxes this line of thinking almost certainly rules Artaxerxes out of the running.

On top of that the surrounding proofs seem to coalesce around Xerxes as well such as the Persian Empire being at its zenith therefore narrowing it down to Darius, Xerxes, or Artaxerxes. The character flaws of the harem and the king's famous anger prevalent in both the book of Esther and the secular sources about Xerxes (ie: Herodotus). The dealings with the "isles of the seas" which leaves only Darius and Xerxes as possible. The real lynchpin in my opinion is it being known Xerxes had a high official named Mordecai in his court, particularly in Shushan/Susa which fits very well with Book of Esther.

Good stuff though for the parsing and study either way, but I am heading out for a bit, might be back later tonight, but not sure since my computer is on the fritz lol. If not I'll be back tomorrow hopefully. Lol but by all means ya'll can take this discussion wherever it so pleases ya'll now that book of Esther has been posited.
The character flaws of the harem and the king's famous anger prevalent in both the book of Esther and the secular sources about Xerxes (ie: Herodotus).
You almost threw a hissy-fit about using Herodotus and now your falling back on him to prove a point?
 
I

Is

Guest
#45
I disagree with Jones then. The Bible outright calls Ahasuerus "Xerxes" in some translations as that's the direct translation, but the only contention is that the name Xerxes/Ahasuerus could also be seen as a title since it means King/prince/royalty. I believe this is why Xerxes is the prime suspect in Ahasuerus' identity.

Furthermore if it is actually Kish that was carried into captivity Mordecai would be the right age. Furthermore even if we assume Mordecai was the one carried into cpativity it's not necessarily unheard of in the Bible for certain righteous OT men to live long lives. On top of that since Artaxerxes came after Xerxes this line of thinking almost certainly rules Artaxerxes out of the running.

On top of that the surrounding proofs seem to coalesce around Xerxes as well such as the Persian Empire being at its zenith therefore narrowing it down to Darius, Xerxes, or Artaxerxes. The character flaws of the harem and the king's famous anger prevalent in both the book of Esther and the secular sources about Xerxes (ie: Herodotus). The dealings with the "isles of the seas" which leaves only Darius and Xerxes as possible. The real lynchpin in my opinion is it being known Xerxes had a high official named Mordecai in his court, particularly in Shushan/Susa which fits very well with Book of Esther.

Good stuff though for the parsing and study either way, but I am heading out for a bit, might be back later tonight, but not sure since my computer is on the fritz lol. If not I'll be back tomorrow hopefully. Lol but by all means ya'll can take this discussion wherever it so pleases ya'll now that book of Esther has been posited.
I disagree with Jones then. The Bible outright calls Ahasuerus "Xerxes" in some translations as that's the direct translation, but the only contention is that the name Xerxes/Ahasuerus could also be seen as a title since it means King/prince/royalty. I believe this is why Xerxes is the prime suspect in Ahasuerus' identity.
The main reason that the king in Esther is identified as Xerxes is because of George Fredrich Grotefend June 9, 1771-Dec. 15, 1853. Grotefend deciphered the inscriptions of Persian characters found among the ruins of the ancient Persian city, Persepolis. The name of the son of Darius Hystaspis was deciphered as "KHSHAYARSHA" which is the "old" Persian.

Grotefend translated this into Greek as "Xerxes". When "KHSHAYARSHA" is transposed into Hebrew, it becomes letter for letter "AKHASHVEROSH," which is rendered "Ahasuerus" in English. So because of Grotefend the "Ahasuerus" of the Book of Esther was established as Xerxes.

And like you pointed out it makes Xerxes regardless of spelling, simply "SHAH" (king) and could be applied to anyone sitting on the throne of Persia. Etymology may confirm a context or even assist in clarification, but it is not an exact science and should not be used as the sole judge with extreme caution and only when nothing else is available to consult. It must never be used to overturn clear context.

"Ahasuerus" means "the mighty" (Aha) and "king" (Suerus). So how in translating does this suddenly (according to Grotefend) reduce to "Xerxes" which means only "shah" or "king":confused: It would seems that [["Artaxerxes"]] would have been a more faithful rendering. The translators of the Septuagint certainly thought so (Esther 1:1, LXX). So what happened to "The Mighty" portion during Grotefend's translation:confused:
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#46
Interesting study. Thanks
 
B

Buzzard

Guest
#47
OK; someone tell me when the story of Ester occured
480 BC / 460 BC or when ever
give me a date if someone can
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
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#48
OK; someone tell me when the story of Ester occured
480 BC / 460 BC or when ever
give me a date if someone can
Dating anything in the BC is hard to do due to both lack of reference points and a conflict of information between the sources (ie: Greek views of the Persian empire tend to inflate or embellish the reigns of certain Persian kings). This is actually a good question for the topic.

Since we know story of Esther happened during the Medo-Persian Empire we know an approximate generalized age range for the story (roughly 600-300 BC.) We also know it was probably moreso on the older side of things since either Mordecai or one of his progenitors such as Kish, was taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. From the small context clue in Chapter 10 about Ahasuerus laying tribute upon the islands of the seas, this may imply the story ends sometime shortly before the Greco-Persian War (G-P War lasted roughly 499 BC to 449 BC).

However for a more specific date that would depend on several factors namely the identity of Ahasuerus whether he is Darius, Xerxes, or Artaxerxes. Nevertheless assuming he is any of those three still puts us at about the middle point of the Medo-Persian empire, so sometime roughly between 550-450 BC.
 
B

Buzzard

Guest
#49
Can anyone give a reason the SDA's place Ezra approx 457 BC
12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.
13 Then Tatnai, governor on this side the river, Shetharboznai, and their companions, according to that which Darius the king had sent, so they did speedily.
14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.


I am sure they have a reason for doing so;
I could care less what they claim;
I just need / want something conclusive as to when the story of Ezra and Nehemiah took place
.



 
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Dec 18, 2013
6,733
45
0
#50
Can anyone give a reason the SDA's place Ezra approx 457 BC
12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.
13 Then Tatnai, governor on this side the river, Shetharboznai, and their companions, according to that which Darius the king had sent, so they did speedily.
14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.


I am sure they have a reason for doing so;
I could care less what they claim;
I just need / want something conclusive as to when the story of Ezra and Nehemiah took place
.



No idea about the SDA angle, but Artaxerxes is thought to have reigned roughly around 465-424 BC so I would think that could be a plausible explanation.

Also this reminds me of something interesting I came across in terms of Ahasuerus identity. Book of Ezra makes a good secondary intra-biblical source for us. In chapter four we're given a briefing of the Persian kings' being prevailed upon by the enemies of the jews. In this we can see a clear distinction between Ahasuerus and Artaxerxes, and also something of a chronology of the Medo-Persian kings placing Ahasuerus between Darius and Artaxerxes, which may make the case more solid that indeed Ahasuerus is Xerxes.

Ezra 4:4-7

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.
 
B

Buzzard

Guest
#51
somewhere; years ago
(wish I have kept better notes)
when I was interested in some of Sir Isaac Newton bibilicial dating
Newton was a fellow of Trinity College and the second Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge. He was a devout but unorthodox Christian and, unusually for a member of the Cambridge faculty of the day, he refused to take holy orders in the Church of England, perhaps because he privately rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond his work on the mathematical sciences, Newton dedicated much of his time to the study of biblical chronology and alchemy, but most of his work in those areas remained unpublished until long after his death. In his later life, Newton became president of the Royal Society. Newton served the British government as Warden and Master of the Royal Mint.
he gave the fall of 458 BC as the date for the decree
any one know where I can find that ??