Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I definatly agree with that.. But thats not what I was asking. In order for your will to be ''free'' it must be ''free'' from something. So lets make it easy what is the unregenerate mans will '''free'''from?

Generally speaking, unregenerate man's will isn't entirely free from sin, neither is it entirely in bondage to it. So he has a measure of free will. Regenerate man has free will.

 

[phil36]

Generally speaking, unregenerate man's will isn't entirely free from sin, neither is it entirely in bondage to it. So he has a measure of free will. Regenerate man has free will.

What does the bible say?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What does the bible say?

Don't play your games with me.

 

[phil36]

John 8:34 - Romans 6:18 its not a game.

So with regard to what scripture says can you tell me what your will is '''free'' from

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

John 8:34 - Romans 6:18 its not a game.

So with regard to what scripture says can you tell me what your will is '''free'' from

Like I said, I'm not going to play this game with you. You either learn to discuss things like a normal person, or get used to having your comments rebuffed by me.

 

[phil36]

Ok, I think we will leave it there. Have a nice evening.

 

[Magenta]

I definatly agree with that.. But thats not what I was asking. In order for your will to be ''free'' it must be ''free'' from something. So lets make it easy what is the unregenerate mans will '''free'''from?

Free from having to pay the ultimate wages of sin Not that there aren't consequences to our life choices, for there certainly are... and I prefer to term self will over free will. When our will turns from being self centered and directed to being God centered and directed... that counts for a very big change, and a lot of freedom from self centered baggage and bondage.

 

[KennethC]

John 8:34 - Romans 6:18 its not a game.

So with regard to what scripture says can you tell me what your will is '''free'' from

Yes we do have to go by what scripture says, and Apostle Paul makes it clear in order to be set free from sin we have to choose to walk by the Spirit.

For those who walk by the fruit of the Spirit there is no law, however those who walk by the flesh are still bond under the Law and held under sin.

Paul makes this clear through Romans 8 that those who continue to walk by the flesh are carnally minded and can not please God because they are enmity to Him !!!

 

[phil36]

lol I would agree in Christ we are free from the ultimate wages of sin..... changed from a slave of sin to a slave of Christ

 

[KennethC]

lol I would agree in Christ we are free from the ultimate wages of sin..... changed from a slave of sin to a slave of Christ

You have said the key in what you have said that the doctrines of OSAS and Grace-only (hyper-grace) omit, and that is "IN" Christ.

Eternal security only exist's when one continues to abide in Christ, when one falls away or departs from the faith that security is no longer there.

Therefore the only way to be free from the wages of sin is by abiding in Christ (continue/stay in the faith) !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Generally speaking, unregenerate man's will isn't entirely free from sin, neither is it entirely in bondage to it. So he has a measure of free will. Regenerate man has free will.

I take the first part of this back. Both unregenerate and regenerate people have entirely free will. In either case, whether they sin or do good deeds it's an act of their will.

 

[MsKy]

Here's a good article on Gotquestions.org concerning Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

One of the biggest aggravations on discussing this issue is that people who try to discuss it don't understand the other viewpoint and are arguing against a straw-man. Those who discuss it should read a good book by someone from the other side of the argument before they discuss it.

On the Reformed side (monergism or Calvinist), one of the best books is "Potter's Freedom" by James White. I'd highly suggest reading it, along with the Scriptures referenced, in order to understand the monergist or Calvinist view.

I will leave it up to the Arminian side (synergism; some call them Semi-Pelagian) to provide references to their favorite authors in this regard.

It should be noted that Pelagians, another group, are not evangelical and should not even be considered Christian. They are not evangelical because they reject justification by faith alone, and this is a FUNDAMENTAL point of evangelical Christianity. Any group that doesn't acknowledge justification by faith and imputed righteousness isn't evangelical by definition. They also deny original sin and substitutionary atonement, and are often open theists and sinless perfectionists, and Arminians in general would not agree with any of those positions.

Both Arminians and Calvinists acknowledge justification by faith and imputed righteousness. If you don't know what these words mean, you should be researching them and understanding them.

Here's the article:

Question: "Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?"

Answer: Calvinism and Arminianism are two systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the matter of salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems can be summarized with five points. Calvinism holds to the total depravity of man while Arminianism holds to partial depravity. Calvinism’s doctrine of total depravity states that every aspect of humanity is corrupted by sin; therefore, human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord. Partial depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles). In general, Arminians believe there is an “intermediate” state between total depravity and salvation. In this state, made possible by prevenient grace, the sinner is being drawn to Christ and has the God-given ability to choose salvation.

Calvinism includes the belief that election is unconditional, while Arminianism believes in conditional election. Unconditional election is the view that God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will, not on anything inherently worthy in the individual. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ unto salvation, thereby on the condition that the individual chooses God.

Calvinism sees the atonement as limited, while Arminianism sees it as unlimited. This is the most controversial of the five points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism holds to perseverance of the saints while Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance of the saints refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.

Link to Article:

GotQuestions.org - Question of the Week

Bibliography:

Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views by Hunt & White
Chosen But Free, revised edition: A Balanced View of God's Sovereignty and Free Will by Norm Geisler
The Potter's Freedom by James White
Why I Am Not a Calvinist by Walls & Dongell
Why I Am Not an Arminian by Peterson & Williams

Good debates on Calvinism vs. Arminianism:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKnzCuBYVJm4uZUj-kjLXyn5ar75VUl1z

You know how the Calvinist use TULIP in the five points of Calvinism?

Guess what the Arminians use? The Daisy: He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me, He loves me not….


I know, it's a very bad joke. Please no one get offended.

 

[phil36]

You have said the key in what you have said that the doctrines of OSAS and Grace-only (hyper-grace) omit, and that is "IN" Christ.

Eternal security only exist's when one continues to abide in Christ, when one falls away or departs from the faith that security is no longer there.

Therefore the only way to be free from the wages of sin is by abiding in Christ (continue/stay in the faith) !!!

I think you miss the point of what myself and magenta are saying the ultimate wage of sin is what? whats OSAS?

Perseverence of the saints what assurance in Christ indeed

 

[KennethC]

I take the first part of this back. Both unregenerate and regenerate people have entirely free will. In either case, whether they sin or do good deeds it's an act of their will.

Free will choice is shown all throughout the Word of God, so it surprises that some are taught we have no free will.

Unbelievers (unregenerate) can choose to do good deeds of their own accord, the problem is without Christ those good deeds are filthy rags and self-righteous deeds done...Thus sin !!!

In Christ those good deeds we choose to do is done by and from love of the Lord, and we are told we will be rewarded for our works done in Him.

A believer (regenerate) can choose to do bad deeds as well, if not then we would never ever sin again, and we know that is not the case and a person can not claim they don't sin unless they are lying !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Free will choice is shown all throughout the Word of God, so it surprises that some are taught we have no free will.

Unbelievers (unregenerate) can choose to do good deeds of their own accord, the problem is without Christ those good deeds are filthy rags and self-righteous deeds done...Thus sin !!!

In Christ those good deeds we choose to do is done by and from love of the Lord, and we are told we will be rewarded for our works done in Him.

A believer (regenerate) can choose to do bad deeds as well, if not then we would never ever sin again, and we know that is not the case and a person can not claim they don't sin unless they are lying !!!

I don't believe this. Unregenerate people can do good works just like regenerate folks can. They can obey GOD's voice just like believers can. An act of love is an act of love no matter who does it. But unbelievers have the disadvantage of being blind to fully seeing GOD's will, and of course their good works won't save them, just like believer's works won't save them.

 

[KennethC]

I think you miss the point of what myself and magenta are saying the ultimate wage of sin is what? whats OSAS?

Perseverence of the saints what assurance in Christ indeed

The wages of sin is death, but Paul when he stated that was not speaking of physical death in the flesh !!!

He was talking about spiritual death of being cast into the lake of fire at judgment.

OSAS is "once saved always saved", I thought most people new that by now. This term was coined by John Calvin when he adopted Augustine's apostate eternal security doctrine, but changed some of the teachings.

Calvin taught that falling away from the faith was impossible, but the Word of God says and shows in multiple places it is possible and will happen !!!

Apostle John (1 John 2-4) and Apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 13:5) both showed that by the way a person walked (actions and speech) will show assurance that eternal life does abide in them, and that the Truth abides in them !!!

 

[phil36]

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Calvin taught that falling away from the faith was impossible, but the Word of God says and shows in multiple places it is possible and will happen !!!

Fancy that. So did the gnostics.

 

[KennethC]

I don't believe this. Unregenerate people can do good works just like regenerate folks can. They can obey GOD's voice just like believers can. An act of love is an act of love no matter who does it. But unbelievers have the disadvantage of being blind to fully seeing GOD's will, and of course their good works won't save them, just like believer's works won't save them.

I never said that they obey God's voice, where did you get that from ???

I said unbelievers can choose to do good deeds !!!

I know of some unbelievers that are some of the nicest people you would come across, and they spend a lot of time helping and doing things for others in need.

However without Christ those good deeds are all for naught, and the Word of God says they are as filthy rags because they are not done in the faith and love of God !!!

 

[KennethC]

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

You know that when Paul was stating that he was speaking of a before conversion state, he was not speaking of an after conversion state ???

This has been badly used to speak on people after they have become born again believers, but that is not what Paul was speaking about here !!!!