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K
Those good deeds would not matter if the person is not a believer, as that person will still end up in the same lake of fire as the other unbelievers no matter how good they were !!!
However when it comes to believers the Word of God does say and show we will be rewarded for those good deeds we do in the Lord.
However when it comes to believers the Word of God does say and show we will be rewarded for those good deeds we do in the Lord.
I just read the most bizarre thing on a reformed apologetics website. It was refuting synergism and said that we are able to do what GOD commands because he controls us and enables us. I can't wrap my head around this idea because these are two contradictory things. GOD enables us to do because we have free will, yet are unable, but he doesn't enable us in order to control our will. The bible is filled with examples of GOD enabling those with free will (yet without ability), but it is void of examples of GOD telling people to do things and then controlling their will to accomplish it. It seems that free will and ability are being conflated. Is this a common belief?
This same website says that regenerate man is too corrupt to do GOD's will of his own free will! Thus GOD must do his will through us by co-opting our will. I'm starting to get the picture. This is a totally gnostic idea. Gnostics believed that matter was totally corrupt; therefore it was impossible for the physical body do do anything good. This is little different from the reformed/Calvinist idea that the flesh is so depraved that a believer cannot do the will of GOD freely, i.e., through acts of his will; GOD must take control and do through us. This belief in total depravity (which really translates into total inability), IMO is the underlying factor that constrains the reformed/Calvinist mind to conflate free will with ability.
So did the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 10:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Is the Lord Jesus a gnostic because He taught OSAS?
Is the Lord Jesus wrong for teaching this, as Kenneth says, because its against the 'Word of God'?
No and No. These are just labels from people with no understanding. It doesn't seem too difficult to understand what Eternal is or the word Never or how about 'no man is able'. Can't quite grasp it.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Workers and legalists can't believe in OSAS. That would cause all their work to be of no consequence. It would cause their 'understanding' to crumble. There has to be some consequence for not doing all the works that legalists require. Right?
John 10:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Is the Lord Jesus a gnostic because He taught OSAS?
Is the Lord Jesus wrong for teaching this, as Kenneth says, because its against the 'Word of God'?
No and No. These are just labels from people with no understanding. It doesn't seem too difficult to understand what Eternal is or the word Never or how about 'no man is able'. Can't quite grasp it.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Workers and legalists can't believe in OSAS. That would cause all their work to be of no consequence. It would cause their 'understanding' to crumble. There has to be some consequence for not doing all the works that legalists require. Right?
K
No He did not !!!
I think you need to go read Matthew 25, Luke 12, and especially Matthew 24:10-13 again !!!
There is multiple verses that speak on those that fall away or depart from the faith in the NT, multiple !!!
Jesus did not teach OSAS, that is a lie my friend started by Augustine and carried on by Calvin.
Jesus taught of believers that will be cast away because of being disobedient servants.............
The Calvin and Augustine teaching of eternal security does not align with God's Word, as God's word says only those who continue to abide in Christ (faith) will receive eternal life.
There is no eternal life outside of Christ, nor any security of it !!!
There is a way to lose your salvation ( as if it is "yours" that obtain it for you ).....but you have to be able to use a lot of imagination and have a very low opinion of our Lord's sacrifice and the integrity of our Father..( oh brother.. )
John 10:27-30 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
[SUP]28 [/SUP] and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; andno one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] "I and the Father are one."
You have to be NOT a "no one"...so "no one" really means every one else but you.....
All's you do is wrestle yourself out of Jesus' hand..then once you have Him beat..then you are ready to take on the Father. ( He's a little tougher but you will have experience now on how to pluck yourself out of His hand )
In order to scare Jesus and the Father first you must..I repeat MUST intimidate Them with your mighty power by verbally accusing Them....you can tell them that they lied when He said " I will never leave nor forsake you"
Then because you are in Christ...He is going to have to stop being a High Priest for you..( again God lied when He said He is a priest forever...)
His blood which He spilled for all sins that supposedly have been taken away..that has to stop too being efficacious ....Jesus has to stop being the Lamb of God.
Even in the Old Covenant the priest looked at the lamb for blemishes..not the guy who brought the sacrifice.. the Father looks at Jesus....He is our Lamb! He is spotless and blameless.
.."...as He is..so also are we in this world.."
It's all really ridiculous..our salvation is not based on us..it is based on Jesus and His finished work!..He is faithful and grace much more abounds around sin...it's just plain "spiritual ignorance that has gone to seed " to think of His perfect work and that somehow it revolves around us and what we do.
John 10:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]and I "give" eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the "gift" of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Romans 11:29 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
( Somehow some obscure passages of scripture that people take without looking at it in context nullifies all the vast proof of scriptures that speak otherwise of the integrity of God and HIs completed work....is it possible we have those scriptures interpreted wrong because we look through the wrong "lens"?...of course.. )
John 10:27-30 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
[SUP]28 [/SUP] and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; andno one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] "I and the Father are one."
You have to be NOT a "no one"...so "no one" really means every one else but you.....
All's you do is wrestle yourself out of Jesus' hand..then once you have Him beat..then you are ready to take on the Father. ( He's a little tougher but you will have experience now on how to pluck yourself out of His hand )
In order to scare Jesus and the Father first you must..I repeat MUST intimidate Them with your mighty power by verbally accusing Them....you can tell them that they lied when He said " I will never leave nor forsake you"
Then because you are in Christ...He is going to have to stop being a High Priest for you..( again God lied when He said He is a priest forever...)
His blood which He spilled for all sins that supposedly have been taken away..that has to stop too being efficacious ....Jesus has to stop being the Lamb of God.
Even in the Old Covenant the priest looked at the lamb for blemishes..not the guy who brought the sacrifice.. the Father looks at Jesus....He is our Lamb! He is spotless and blameless.
.."...as He is..so also are we in this world.."
It's all really ridiculous..our salvation is not based on us..it is based on Jesus and His finished work!..He is faithful and grace much more abounds around sin...it's just plain "spiritual ignorance that has gone to seed " to think of His perfect work and that somehow it revolves around us and what we do.
John 10:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]and I "give" eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the "gift" of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Romans 11:29 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
( Somehow some obscure passages of scripture that people take without looking at it in context nullifies all the vast proof of scriptures that speak otherwise of the integrity of God and HIs completed work....is it possible we have those scriptures interpreted wrong because we look through the wrong "lens"?...of course.. )
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
People who are intent on somehow placing their own free will into the picture insisting that they are good, don't understand the spirit that is given.
It is not our spirit. It is His Holy Spirit. So if your free will is in control then you are somehow able to command God to accomplish your will.
That is completely against scripture. God does not conform to our will. We conform to His.
All of a sudden obedience is something entirely different than what the legalists think it is. Obedience is resting from your own work and understanding and putting Faith in Gods Work in you.
People who are intent on somehow placing their own free will into the picture insisting that they are good, don't understand the spirit that is given.
It is not our spirit. It is His Holy Spirit. So if your free will is in control then you are somehow able to command God to accomplish your will.
That is completely against scripture. God does not conform to our will. We conform to His.
All of a sudden obedience is something entirely different than what the legalists think it is. Obedience is resting from your own work and understanding and putting Faith in Gods Work in you.
Free will is independent of good or bad. It's simply the GOD-given authority to choose. Every man has it. Unregenerate man may choose of his own free will to want to do GOD's will, but he lacks the ability to do so perfectly, if at all (Romans 7). Regenerate man receives the ability to do the good that he wills to do (Romans 8).
Jesus told his disciples that they would receive that ability to do GOD's will through the holy spirit. Men who have GOD's spirit are not bound by 'total depravity' to be slaves to sin.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
Power (δύναμις, dunamis)
Jesus told his disciples that they would receive that ability to do GOD's will through the holy spirit. Men who have GOD's spirit are not bound by 'total depravity' to be slaves to sin.
But you will receive power [when] the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest part of the earth.” Acts 1:8
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
Power (δύναμις, dunamis)
Words of this stem all have the basic sense of ability or capability. dýnamai means a. “to be able” in a general sense, b. “to be able” with reference to the attitude that makes one able, hence sometimes “to will,” and c. (of things) “to be equivalent to,” “to count as,” “to signify.” dynatós means “one who has ability or power,” “one who is powerful”; the neuter adjective signifies “what is possible or practicable.” dynatéō means “to have great ability.” adýnatos means “one who has no ability or strength”; the noun tó adýnaton signifies “impossibility” and adýnatón esti “to be impossible.” adynatéō means “not to be able.” dýnamis, the most important word in the group, means “ability,” then “possibility,” then “power” both physical and intellectual or spiritual. dýnastēs has the sense of “one who can do something” and was early used for “ruler” (including God as ruler). dynamóō and endynamóō both mean “to give power,” “to make strong,” “to strengthen.”
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Everything I've read about his conception of total depravity (and am now seeing in comments here from people who espouse his view) aligns with the gnostic idea of total depravity. I've asked for people to comment and prove me wrong, but no one has been able to do anything but impugn that I'm wrong for sundry weak reasons. I sense that people are feeling threatened by having the light shine on the nature of what Calvin really believed, but they are too weak in their knowledge about their own identical belief to be able to engage in reasonable discussion. The inherent contradictions of that belief are becoming too obvious.
rubbish. you have never even clearly thought abut it. 'free will' is never mentioned in the Bible. If it exists it is NEVER independent of good or bad, Most people never act other than their upbringing, environment and personal preferences. Do you call that free will? When is FREE will exercised? When the Holy Spirit drives men to obey God. But that is not free will either,
Since when has that been FREE will.
LOL since when has the power of the Holy Spirit been freewill>? you are muddled in your thinking,
Since when has that been FREE will.
LOL since when has the power of the Holy Spirit been freewill>? you are muddled in your thinking,
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S
Actually that's not what it says. It was by God's permissive will that sin exists, though. The fact that he gave mankind the ability to sin is proof of that. He isn't the AUTHOR of sin, but he does allow it to continue.
You can twist the words if you want, though..Arminians and Pelagians are good at that.
S
Regeneration precedes faith in the Calvinist view. Faith follows salvation. I am not sure what your point would be...it's incoherent. If you're trying to say Calvinists believe they are saved prior to faith, you're conveying error. The elect are predestined to salvation, but they are not saved until they place their faith in Jesus Christ.
Caricatures are not appreciated.
Let me torch that strawman for you
Caricatures are not appreciated.
Let me torch that strawman for you
Attachments
S
His will is constrained by his nature. Since his nature is corrupt, his actions reflect the corruption. Same with believers. Their will is constrained by their nature. Since their nature is regenerate, their actions reflect the regenerate heart.
Argue with that; argue with the Bible. Scripture clearly teaches that the unsaved are slaves to sin, and that the righteous do good because of the regenerate nature. A good tree bears good fruit; a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Argue with that; argue with the Bible. Scripture clearly teaches that the unsaved are slaves to sin, and that the righteous do good because of the regenerate nature. A good tree bears good fruit; a bad tree bears bad fruit.
S
This is a Pelagian view. Autonomous free will basically makes man sovereign.
Mankind does not have autonomous free will. His free will is subject to God's sovereign will.
Do you seriously think that your will trumps God's will?
Mankind is like a fish swimming in a pond. It can freely swim within the pond, but it can't decide to jump out of the pond and live on land. Our free will is subject to parameters that God assigns.
Pelagians and Arminians make a big deal out of autonomous free will but there's no such thing.
This is why I consider extreme Arminians and Pelagians to be idolaters. They reject God's sovereignty and make themselves the center of their universe. It's nothing but idolatry.
Mankind does not have autonomous free will. His free will is subject to God's sovereign will.
Do you seriously think that your will trumps God's will?
Mankind is like a fish swimming in a pond. It can freely swim within the pond, but it can't decide to jump out of the pond and live on land. Our free will is subject to parameters that God assigns.
Pelagians and Arminians make a big deal out of autonomous free will but there's no such thing.
This is why I consider extreme Arminians and Pelagians to be idolaters. They reject God's sovereignty and make themselves the center of their universe. It's nothing but idolatry.