Revelation Timeline

[GaryA]

I realized that from one of your earlier posts, that you see John having been given Revelation in the era when the 2nd temple was still standing, prior to its 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans. I don't agree with that.

We have a historical example of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of Dan.11 with Antiochus IV in 165 B.C., yet our Lord Jesus quoted about that Daniel prophecy in His Olivet Discourse some 200 years after Antiochus IV had been dead.

Antiochus Epiphanes went into the 2nd temple, sacrificed swine upon the alter, spread its broth, and then setup an idol in Zeus worship. So even at Jesus' first coming, they already had a pattern for the "abomination of desolation" event in the temple.

That "abomination of desolation" event requires a standing temple in Jerusalem. It also requires the re-establishing of old covenant worship with that temple in order to fulfill that Dan.9:27 & Dan.11 prophecy, for that is the only meaning for the "holy covenant" mentioned there in Daniel's time.

And that is exactly what the orthodox Jews have been planning since they began to trek back to Jerusalem and Israel became a nation again.

Their doing that in the near future is not dependent upon our Faith on Jesus Christ as The Messiah. They still reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. God is going to send them a fake, and the fake they will worship in place of Messiah, thinking he will be Messiah. Thus in their own eyes, they don't see that they're doing anything wrong, but only following the OT prophecies of Messiah coming, and the prophecy of Zech.6 about the building of the temple by Messiah. To them, that temple will very much be the "temple of God".

I have never put forth that the Antiochus Epiphanes event was the Abomination of Desolation Jesus referred to in the Olivet Discourse. ( I did make mention of it by mistake once when I was thinking about something else -- confusing the issue... )

Daniel 9:27 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with re-establishing old covenant worship.

 

[planitsoon]

Seriously, have you guys got your visas for Israel and your airplane tickets well organised yet, so you can do what Jesus told you.

To flee to the mountains of Judea or do you know a better place than He told you to go? And why would you know a better place to go? Above all, make sure that you get a visa and ticket that doesn't expire quickly as it might take a while. We survived the blood moons and Shemitah's and I still have my left behind.

I wonder how the Israeli State is going to react with the influx of millions of Dispensationalists as they are not easy at all. But, I suppose we all need to have faith so why not having for a speciial visa and ticket. I just don't believe that Israell will release many visas.

Anyone trying to change mountains of Judea to.....the mountains of YourChoosing..... could easily also turn the New Jerusalem into the New New York. No problem there. Ones we start changing names like that, we can end up anywhere.

 

[GaryA]

That is not possible because Revelation 11:1 is during the 6th Trumpet, which takes place during the Tribulation.

Wrong about both.

Revelation 11:1 is present-time for John while he was receiving the revelation.

The Great Tribulation Period is over / ended before the first Trumpet 'sounds'.

 

[GaryA]

The phrase "to anoint the most Holy" is about the anointing of the Ezekiel sanctuary after Jesus' 2nd coming.

No, it was fulfilled at the baptism of Jesus - Who is "the most Holy" -- it is referring to Jesus.

 

[planitsoon]

Before I go into Revelation 11, I have a question. When was Jesus manifested? Has that happened yet or is it still to come? We should know the answer.

1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (I believe they were talking about their time). It was the fullness of time back then as Jesus fulfilled everything.

O yes, some believe that the last days already can take 2000 years now. hmmm. Why then was Daniel told to seal the book for a long time and we now know from history that that long time stood for about say 500 years (490 years) but when John is told that these things will happen shortly, it already takes 2000 years? That doesn't make sense.

Yes brother, but one day is a 1000 years for the Lord. Yes, that is why Jesus was also 3000 years in the grave, Lazarus even 4000 yrs in the grave and Israel walking 40.000 years in the dessert. I can hear the Creationists complaining about that one

Coming back to Peter. If we want to apply the same interpretation rules for the term "last days" consistently as it gets interpreted every where else also in this passage than we have to conclude that Jesus hasn't manifested yet as "these last days" are the 21st century and should be actually translated as "those". Unless of course you are adhere to Judaism

Time lines are so often ignored. In Gen. 47:27 the words "until today" doesn't apply to the 21st century. We don't have today a Pharaoh in Egypt. Terms like" these last days", "this is the last hour", "this generation" etc etc

Rev. 11

Revelation 11 is a quote from Luke 21 where Jesus said that the gentiles will trample the temple for 42 months and refers to the Jewish war as we know.

Now, I have to admit that as a Dispensationalist I was never ever told the history of what happened in the last days of the Old Covenant between the cross and the fulfillment of Jesus curse in Matthew 23:35 and onwards. I still love the Arch of Titus standing tall in Rome for the whole world to see and it is beautful art work where you can see the Romans carrying the Menorah and other spoils of war.

But Rev. 11 is also one of the tree internal evidences to show an early dating of the book as it make sense, if the temple still stood, to measure it but it must have been hard for John in 95AD.

Then we have the fact that Nero was still alive in Chapter 17. "Seven kings, five have fallen and one is now (alive) and the one after will only reign for a short time". We known from history that Nero was number six in line and died in 68AD and after him came Galba who only reigned for 6 months just as the Bible said.

Then the fact that they were still fighting about the fact who was a real Jew in Rev. 2:7 (Paul said clearly that a REAL Jew is him circumsized at the heart, it is not a race but a heart condition) and that the accusation was made that they were of the synagogue of Satan.

When Gamaleal the II in 80AD added a curse upon the Nazareens in the daily Jewish prayer there was a permanent spilt between the two parties. The fact that at the beginning of Revelation they were still arguing about this issue, shows an early dating as well.

It would not have been fair if Revelation wasn't meant for the literal churches back then who suffered persecution to send them a letter about Henry Kissinger or Obama being the beast. Even with some LSD to would have not been able to come up with that one and it would have been better to hide the letter in a bottle, throw in the sea with the words, don't open this for another 2000 years. It was unbelievable deceptive to the churches to lie like that.

 

[DP]

I have never put forth that the Antiochus Epiphanes event was the Abomination of Desolation Jesus referred to in the Olivet Discourse. ( I did make mention of it by mistake once when I was thinking about something else -- confusing the issue... )

Daniel 9:27 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with re-establishing old covenant worship.

Antiochus IV was the pattern for Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 though, almost to a tee.

And yes, Dan.11 is... referring to the old covenant, called the "holy covenant" there.

Dan 11:28-31
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.


29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.


30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.


31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

It's the forsaking of that "holy covenant" that allows the replacing of those sacrifices with an idol abomination.

 

[DP]

Wrong about both.

Revelation 11:1 is present-time for John while he was receiving the revelation.

The Great Tribulation Period is over / ended before the first Trumpet 'sounds'.

No, Kenneth is correct, that Rev.11 Chapter is still within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period that began back at Rev.9:12. It's easy to know that, because the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period is just a little later in that Rev.11 Chapter, and it signals the end of Antichrist's reign and end of tribulation. So what timeframe is it just prior to the ending of the tribulation? The tribulation. This is easy.

The trumpets with woes are timeframe periods when certain events are to occur.

 

[DP]

No, it was fulfilled at the baptism of Jesus - Who is "the most Holy" -- it is referring to Jesus.

It's about the cleansing of the sanctuary of Dan.8.

Dan 8:14
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

Even if that anointing was about our Lord Jesus, it still would not fit the prophecy, because Jerusalem and its people today STILL AS A MAJORITY reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. Remember per Dan.9:24 the vision is about Jerusalem and its people, not Christianity.

 

[DP]

Before I go into Revelation 11, I have a question. When was Jesus manifested? Has that happened yet or is it still to come? We should know the answer.

1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (I believe they were talking about their time). It was the fullness of time back then as Jesus fulfilled everything.

Irrelevant, since the majority of Jews in Jerusalem today still reject our Lord Jesus as The Christ. The vision Daniel was given was for Jerusalem and her people per Dan.9:24, which those in Jerusalem still have not accepted Christ Jesus, showing the prophecy is still yet to be finished today.

O yes, some believe that the last days already can take 2000 years now. hmmm. Why then was Daniel told to seal the book for a long time and we now know from history that that long time stood for about say 500 years (490 years) but when John is told that these things will happen shortly, it already takes 2000 years? That doesn't make sense.

Irrelevant, since there is... such a thing as timeline gaps in God's Word between events.

Just the fact that Daniel is told to seal up the prophecy for the end should have easily made the reader understand this point. In Luke 4, Jesus read from Isaiah 61:1-2 when He began His Ministry and said what He read was then fulfilled, but He closed the Book before reading the very last part of Isaiah 61:2, because that last part about the day of vengeance of God is for the time of His second coming. The Zech.9:9 verse is about His first coming, the Zech.9:10 verse is about His second coming. Got to rightly divide Scripture like Apostle Paul said, recognizing timelines per their events (2 Tim.2:15).

Yes brother, but one day is a 1000 years for the Lord. Yes, that is why Jesus was also 3000 years in the grave, Lazarus even 4000 yrs in the grave and Israel walking 40.000 years in the dessert. I can hear the Creationists complaining about that one

Completely irrelevant to the Daniel prophecies.

Coming back to Peter. If we want to apply the same interpretation rules for the term "last days" consistently as it gets interpreted every where else also in this passage than we have to conclude that Jesus hasn't manifested yet as "these last days" are the 21st century and should be actually translated as "those". Unless of course you are adhere to Judaism

Irrelevant, since there's plenty enough Scripture to define in which timeframe events were and are to occur. God said before He does something He tells us of it (Isa.42:9).

Time lines are so often ignored. In Gen. 47:27 the words "until today" doesn't apply to the 21st century.

We don't have today a Pharaoh in Egypt. Terms like" these last days", "this is the last hour", "this generation" etc etc

Interesting how you violate the requirement to 'rightly divide' the timelines in God's Word by the doctrine you're preaching which denies time gaps for events given in God's Word. Phrases like "last day" are clear as to their timing:

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
KJV

Rev. 11

Revelation 11 is a quote from Luke 21 where Jesus said that the gentiles will trample the temple for 42 months and refers to the Jewish war as we know.

Impossible. Rev.11 events are to occur within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timeframe. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe ends all events for this present world. It's impossible to move those events back in time when they have yet to occur today. No one back in history saw God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem, killed and then their dead bodies being resurrected for all there to see. If that had happened back in history, the whole world would have known about it! So it's easy to see what you're preaching is not the Truth.

Now, I have to admit that as a Dispensationalist I was never ever told the history of what happened in the last days of the Old Covenant between the cross and the fulfillment of Jesus curse in Matthew 23:35 and onwards. I still love the Arch of Titus standing tall in Rome for the whole world to see and it is beautful art work where you can see the Romans carrying the Menorah and other spoils of war.

But Rev. 11 is also one of the tree internal evidences to show an early dating of the book as it make sense, if the temple still stood, to measure it but it must have been hard for John in 95AD.

I don't think it was any more difficult for John to recognize the events of the end he was given by Jesus than it was for Daniel when given his visions for the end. I'm sure John didn't understand it all like Daniel didn't understand it all either. But that still is irrelevant to what you've been preaching here.

Then we have the fact that Nero was still alive in Chapter 17. "Seven kings, five have fallen and one is now (alive) and the one after will only reign for a short time". We known from history that Nero was number six in line and died in 68AD and after him came Galba who only reigned for 6 months just as the Bible said.

Not Nero, but Domitian.

Then the fact that they were still fighting about the fact who was a real Jew in Rev. 2:7 (Paul said clearly that a REAL Jew is him circumsized at the heart, it is not a race but a heart condition) and that the accusation was made that they were of the synagogue of Satan.

When Gamaleal the II in 80AD added a curse upon the Nazareens in the daily Jewish prayer there was a permanent spilt between the two parties. The fact that at the beginning of Revelation they were still arguing about this issue, shows an early dating as well.

It would not have been fair if Revelation wasn't meant for the literal churches back then who suffered persecution to send them a letter about Henry Kissinger or Obama being the beast. Even with some LSD to would have not been able to come up with that one and it would have been better to hide the letter in a bottle, throw in the sea with the words, don't open this for another 2000 years. It was unbelievable deceptive to the churches to lie like that.

Crazily irrelevant to the time of John's captivity to the Isle of Patmos during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian, which Christ's Revelation likely was a Testimony that the Romans politically feared, just as the unbelieving Jews feared Jesus' Testimony.

 

[KennethC]

Wrong about both.

Revelation 11:1 is present-time for John while he was receiving the revelation.

The Great Tribulation Period is over / ended before the first Trumpet 'sounds'.

You are completely mistaken on this as Revelation clearly shows the Tribulation and Great Tribulation period is the 7 trumpets.

I don't know where you get this GT is over before the 1st Trumpet is sounded, because that is nowhere stated in the Word of God.

Revelation 13 clearly shows the 3 1/2 years of the GT are given to the beast to rule, and God's wrath is poured out at the end of these 3 1/2 years. The 7 trumpets are going on during this time !!!


Revelation 9:13 is the sounding of 6th Trumpet and from here to Revelation 11:14 is the events that take place do to the 6th Trumpet blast. Revelation 11:15 starts the 7th Trumpet !!!

The Great Tribulation has never happened yet, if so where is our Lord Jesus ???

Because the bible clearly shows His 2nd coming is immediately after the Tribulation, not many years later down the line !!!

 

[GaryA]

Because the bible clearly shows His 2nd coming is immediately after the Tribulation, not many years later down the line !!!

Really??? Please show me that...

And - when you quote Matthew 24:29-31 and / or Mark 13:24-27 and say "See here -- it says right here that Jesus comes immediately after the Tribulation." -- I will then show you why you are wrong ( how you have misinterpreted the wording of the passage )...

 

[GaryA]

And yes, Dan.11 is... referring to the old covenant, called the "holy covenant" there.

I said:

Daniel 9:27 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with re-establishing old covenant worship.

 

[GaryA]

No, Kenneth is correct, that Rev.11 Chapter is still within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period that began back at Rev.9:12. It's easy to know that, because the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period is just a little later in that Rev.11 Chapter, and it signals the end of Antichrist's reign and end of tribulation. So what timeframe is it just prior to the ending of the tribulation? The tribulation. This is easy.

The trumpets with woes are timeframe periods when certain events are to occur.

"I'm not even going to bother..."



"That's okay -- y'all just keep on believing that every-single-little-thing in the book of Revelation fits into a pattern that is continuously-chronological - in 'event' terms - from the beginning of the book until the end of the book..."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Really??? Please show me that...

And - when you quote Matthew 24:29 and / or Mark 13:24-27 and say "See here -- it says right here that Jesus comes immediately after the Tribulation." -- I will then show you why you are wrong ( how you have misinterpreted the wording of the passage )...

BTW - you have a funny definition of 'clearly'...

Hi GaryA,

The main reason that Jesus will return within a very short time after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the bowl judgments completing God's wrath, is because Jesus said that if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth. Therefore Jesus could not put off his return for any lengthy amount of time. In fact regarding those last 3 1/2 years, consider what the angel said to Daniel:

"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

1,290 days is 30 days past the 3 1/2 year mark and 1,335 days is 45 days beyond that. Not sure what is going on during those days, or if Jesus is already here. These extra days could be the judgment of the sheep and goats and other issues that the Lord may be addressing when he returns. There will definitely be something going on during those 30 and 45 days. But one thing that is for sure and that is that the Lord's return will take place very shortly after the end of that last 3 1/2 years.

 

[DP]

I said:

Well, yes it does have do with re-establishing the old covenant, AMONG the unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel.

Deny it all you want; it's already prepared to happen with their having been gathering the materials to build another temple for at least a couple of decades now. It's just a matter of time when the Antichrist shows up in Jerusalem to create peace for the go ahead to build it.

 

[DP]

"I'm not even going to bother..."



"That's okay -- y'all just keep on believing that every-single-little-thing in the book of Revelation fits into a pattern that is continuously-chronological - in 'event' terms - from the beginning of the book until the end of the book..."

I don't interpret all the events in our Lord's Revelation as being chronological like men's traditions do. I don't think KennethC does either.

But the 7 trumpets, especially with the last 3, are definitely in order, because of the 3 Woe periods attached to the last 3 trumpets, and because the 7 trumpets represent an order for battle, the last one aligning with the 7th Vial when Jesus comes to fight at Armageddon.

The most solid alignment of events in Revelation are those last 3 trumpet - woe periods, by which is the timeframe key for all the other events written in Revelation.

 

[GaryA]

The main reason that Jesus will return within a very short time after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the bowl judgments completing God's wrath, is because Jesus said that if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth.

Jesus returns before [ any of ] the vials are "poured out' -- He is the one "administering" them.


Revelation 19:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [SUP]12[/SUP] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [SUP]13[/SUP] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


~

It is not the return of Jesus that "shortens the days" -- it is the Two Witnesses. ( Jesus comes a bit later. )

 

[DP]

Jesus returns before [ any of ] the vials are "poured out' -- He is the one "administering" them.


Revelation 19:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [SUP]12[/SUP] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [SUP]13[/SUP] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


~

It is not the return of Jesus that "shortens the days" -- it is the Two Witnesses. ( Jesus comes a bit later. )

This destroys any idea that Jesus returns before any of the vials are poured out:

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

 

[GaryA]

Well, yes it does have do with re-establishing the old covenant, AMONG the unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel.

Deny it all you want; it's already prepared to happen with their having been gathering the materials to build another temple for at least a couple of decades now. It's just a matter of time when the Antichrist shows up in Jerusalem to create peace for the go ahead to build it.

"Nope -- not in the slightest..."

Daniel 9:27 is talking about a / the work of Christ - not some future 'AntiChrist'. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "breaking a treaty" - nor, the building of a temple - nor, the Abomination of Desolation [ in particular ].

"Deny it all you want ... that is okay ... one day you will understand..."

 

[GaryA]

This destroys any idea that Jesus returns before any of the vials are poured out:

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

"No, it doesn't..."

I noticed that you seem to have completely ignored the scripture I quoted in the post that you quoted - that makes it clear ( does it not? ) - that Jesus Himself "administrates the pouring out of the vials"...

Therefore -- don't you think He would have to "be here" first - "before the vials are administered" - if He is the one doing the "administering"...?