Calvinism vs. Arminianism: Good article

[KennethC]

No one is really denying a human will. That would be an extreme form of Calvinism that I don't think anyone here promotes. The human will from birth is to sin. All of our choices are based on that nature. No one is good but God. humans are not good, nor can they choose to do good apart from God. Even their good works are usually for some sort of vain glory or selfish reason. Can God move someone to do good while they are unsaved? Probably yes. I think the world would be in a much worse state than it is without God providentially intervening.

Can God force or cause someone to do something? Sure. Look at the Assyrian King in Isaiah 10. Look at Jonah. Look at Pharaoh. Look at the Jews who Jesus hid the truth from.

This doesn't mean that we are mindless robots. We have a will and that will from birth is to sin and please ourselves. God saves us supernaturally because to turn to God is to abandon our nature - something we could never do on our own. He saves us and we do nothing to deserve or earn that, nor can we.

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Edit:

To answer your question, we still contend with the flesh after salvation. We will still sin. The law of sin and death is still present in our flesh, but with our spirit we serve God.

I think on this subject you have a misunderstanding of what it means to force somebody to do something !!!

I see this because you mentioned Jonah, as God did not force him to do anything !!!

You can see this by going back and reading how Jonah at first denied to do as God wanted, God did not give up on Him and kept coming to him until he choose to do God's will as Jonah 1:2 shows.

God will always come to get us to do His will, but the person still has to choose to do it. They are not forced !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

so you think Israel were exercising their free will. show me were it says so. Joshua certainly was not. He was the chosen of YHWH. So God determined Joshua. As for the remainder the choice would be on the basis of their environment, their upbringing, and so on. That is not free will. that is equally fore-choosing. Free will is a myth invented by men.

Free will simply means the ability to choose.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No one is really denying a human will. That would be an extreme form of Calvinism that I don't think anyone here promotes. The human will from birth is to sin. All of our choices are based on that nature. No one is good but God. humans are not good, nor can they choose to do good apart from God. Even their good works are usually for some sort of vain glory or selfish reason. Can God move someone to do good while they are unsaved? Probably yes. I think the world would be in a much worse state than it is without God providentially intervening.

I don't think you can support this in any way. Paul said in Romans 7 that he willed to do good, but he couldn't do the good he wanted to do because he lacked the ability.

btw, Jesus said that he wasn't good. That didn't mean he was evil.

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one [is] good except God alone. Mark 10:18​

 

[phil36]

Free will simply means the ability to choose.

But that can't be correct. I choose things all day long...in fact I feely choose...but it's not a free will.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But that can't be correct. I choose things all day long...in fact I feely choose...but it's not a free will.

Of course it is. We are free to make whatever choices our will determines.

"Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

 

[phil36]

Of course it is. We are free to make whatever choices our will determines.

"Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

I disagree. I can choose things all day long..every second of the day even... yet it's not free. What ever I choose will always be tied to my nature. so its not ''''free'''' . So there are to types of people = slaves to sin and slaves to christ.

So your will is not libertine/autonomously free. (remember in the moral sense - which is what matters here)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I disagree. I can choose things all day long..every second of the day even... yet it's not free. What ever I choose will always be tied to my nature. so its not ''''free'''' . So there are to types of people = slaves to sin and slaves to christ.

So your will is not libertine/autonomously free. (remember in the moral sense - which is what matters here)

You're conflating free will and ability.

 

[John146]

Of course you won't agree. That would destroy your Calvinistic view.

I disagree. I can choose things all day long..every second of the day even... yet it's not free. What ever I choose will always be tied to my nature. so its not ''''free'''' . So there are to types of people = slaves to sin and slaves to christ.

So your will is not libertine/autonomously free. (remember in the moral sense - which is what matters here)

 

[phil36]

Not at all HeRose,

Will and ability are 2 seperate things indeed, I am sure you are aware of that

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Not at all HeRose,

Will and ability are 2 seperate things indeed, I am sure you are aware of that

I can will things that are in no way tied to my nature. Being able to actualize those things is dependent on my ability.

 

[phil36]

You're conflating free will and ability.

Not at all HeRose..read again Have we not gone through this already. Have a nice evening

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I can will things that are in no way tied to my nature. Being able to actualize those things is dependent on my ability.

I can will whatever I want. I am free to do that. But I can only do what my nature is able to do.

 

[phil36]

I can will things that are in no way tied to my nature. Being able to actualize those things is dependent on my ability.

No I don't believe you can. When granny smiths dear grandson commits murder...she says..that wasn't in his nature I can't believe it'. I can believe it, anyone can murder, doesn't mean we all do.. Simply because its in our nature

Do you understand the actual debate HeRose.. Did you go and read and learn. When we say 'man's inability' do you actually know what that means? Your posts clearly show you that you do not know what it is you say you are against.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No I don't believe you can. When granny smiths dear grandson commits murder...she says..that wasn't in his nature I can't believe it'. I can believe it, anyone can murder, doesn't mean we all do.. Simply because its in our nature

Do you understand the actual debate HeRose.. Did you go and read and learn. When we say 'man's inability' do you actually know what that means? Your posts clearly show you that you do not know what it is you say you are against.

I can see clearly that you are conflating free will and ability.

Again. I can will to do anything I want. I am free to do that. That is a GOD given gift. But I am only able to do those things that I have the ability to do.

This is a very simple, basic concept. Something that any mature human being should know.

I simply cannot comprehend your blindness to such a simple truth, unless, of course, that's just what happens to minds that become saturated in Calvignosticism.

 

[phil36]

Ok, HeRose. I think we are becoming just a little bit silly now. Have a nice night.

 

[KennethC]

I said this before................

I know some unbelievers that are some of the nicest people you would know, they spend a lot of time helping others in need and are just straight up friendly and caring.

Yet by the whole "no free will" understanding these unbeliever in no way could be loving and caring like this, but they are !!!

We are shown in the bible before and after conversion people can choose to live however they want, they can choose to sin or they can choose to do good. Sin is a choice !!!

You can choose to serve flesh or you can choose to serve His righteousness, as Paul said !!!

 

[phil36]

I said this before................

I know some unbelievers that are some of the nicest people you would know, they spend a lot of time helping others in need and are just straight up friendly and caring.

Yet by the whole "no free will" understanding these unbeliever in no way could be loving and caring like this, but they are !!!

We are shown in the bible before and after conversion people can choose to live however they want, they can choose to sin or they can choose to do good. Sin is a choice !!!

You can choose to serve flesh or you can choose to serve His righteousness, as Paul said !!!

Hi Kenneth,

Thats a misrepresentation. Unbelievers can do many amazing good and brilliant things..and probably sometimes shame us Christians.

Unbelievers doing good things is not the issue either. unless you believe that an unrighteouss person does righteous deeds, like those in Christ? which I don't think you do?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Do you understand the actual debate HeRose.. Did you go and read and learn. When we say 'man's inability' do you actually know what that means? Your posts clearly show you that you do not know what it is you say you are against.

Do I know what 'man's inability' means? I've asked for you folks to explain your position, and no one does. So I found this on a Reformed apologetics website. Is this an accurate description of the Calvinist view of 'man's inability'? If yes, then I think that I understand pretty well your position.

"Those are things we do because of God’s hand on us and because of His enabling power. This is because we can’t carry these things out freely – we’re too corrupt."​

 

[KennethC]

Hi Kenneth,

Thats a misrepresentation. Unbelievers can do many amazing good and brilliant things..and probably sometimes shame us Christians.

Unbelievers doing good things is not the issue either. unless you believe that an unrighteouss person does righteous deeds, like those in Christ? which I don't think you do?

It is not a misrepresentation as it shows that unbelievers and believers both can choose to live however they want.

free will
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• 1.
  the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
  
  
  Can you choose to murder or not, can you choose to lie or not, can you choose to steal or not, and so on ???
  
  If yes then you have free will !!!
  
  If no then you should never ever sin again, but if you say you don't, you lie !!!
  
  
  

 

[phil36]

It is not a misrepresentation as it shows that unbelievers and believers both can choose to live however they want.

free will
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• 1.
  the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
  
  
  Can you choose to murder or not, can you choose to lie or not, can you choose to steal or not, and so on ???
  
  If yes then you have free will !!!
  
  If no then you should never ever sin again, but if you say you don't, you lie !!!
  
  
  

Oh I totally agree that people live how they want too, unless constrained by civil laws etc.

Yes one can choose not to murder, one can choose not to steal and some unregenerate people live good law abiding lives, yet they are unrighteouss (according to scriture).

Again you miss the point.. I freely choose every day I can choose to write this or make a cup of coffee, I chose to write this first and then make a coffee .

The unregenerate man will freely choose to do evil and not seek God without any constraint or compulsion..its his nature and he is in bondage to it.. a slave to sin..