anyone have any thoughts on...

[jasonj]

I have a lot of speculation on that deal with dead men walking and where the thief on the cross went after death, but that is all they are -- speculations. The Bible doesn't tell us more.

Y'all do understand you're giving each other theories, right? Theories, not doctrine. I worry about people turning theories into doctrine on here too easily.

its a discussion forum. no one is establishing doctrine as far as I know. I'm honestly just trying to see peoples understanding of things. I figured if I'm looking to discuss the bible, I should look to a forum that is made for discussing the bible. God bless you

 

[jasonj]

You'll find more in 1 Peter 3 about the "spirits in prison", which was prophesied in Isaiah 42:7 for Christ's first coming.

Don't forget this later passage in 1 Peter 4 that goes with that:

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Like our Lord Jesus said to the Jews, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto Him (Luke 20:38).

scripture also says that jesus was crucified for the very resson that He should be the God of both the living and dead....... yes I'm familiar with those passages thank you for taking the time God bless

 

[jasonj]

There is a connection with the Festival of first fruits when some of the harvest was presented to the temple

thanks I will look into that, was kinda looking for ideas like you left here to look into. connections ect.

 

[jasonj]

Here is one I was looking at awhile back, which I thought was interesting (I reduced it to a smaller size here) so it wouldnt get lost in too many words, but more towards the middle part here

Prov 14:31 He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

This one, it says,

1Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

An example of which beggar even prince can be seen in a picture of Abraham

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

The rich man not honouring the LORD in having mercy upon him (Prov 14:1)

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

As it says, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory

Even as Abraham was regarded as a mighty prince amoung them, saying,

Gen 23:6 Hear us (Abraham) my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us

The LORD made both of these

1Sam 2:7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.

This one just reminds of that picture, the whole verse again

1Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory:

Although the rich man "looked up" able to see above him to see the beggar with Abraham, which in this verse seems to equate it with the throne of glory there, but thats a little unclear to me.

honestly this entire comment is unclear to me on its relation to the resurrected saints that appeared at Jesus death. maybe it is above mt head I'm not sure. but thank you for taking the time to reply God bless you

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

You are never a hastle.

Luke 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Abraham's bosom is where the righteous went and were comforted. The other compartment was full of torment.
There was a great gulf fixed so that people couldn't pass between the two.

"Abraham's bosom is where the righteous went and were comforted. The other compartment was full of torment."

Interesting

 

[jasonj]

These few thoughts will explain it for you...

I was actually just looking to get peoples thoughts on the subject, basically what ive gotten for the most part is scripture quotes, dictionary definitions ect. I appreciate the thoughts of other Christians and the purpose of it all is to come into a knowledge together. the church isn't meant to be so divided over every issue or topic. I honestly have plenty of Knowledge of scripture, my desire is to hear what other believers think about the scriptures we have all read and can repeat to each other.

 

[jasonj]

Jewish people believe that they go to Abraham's Bosom when they die.

ahhh thank you lol makes a little more sense now. do you know if there are any scriptures that they base this belief on? and Abrahams bosom would be a waiting area for the righteous then?

 

[jasonj]

Agree. I don't recall anybody who knew what they were talking about, in terms of obscure and difficult Bible passages, ever talking in terms of their theories being doctrine, rather always use "I believe" or "a possible explanation" sorts of contexts for their comments. It's a red flag, passages like this one, for anybody to be categorical, when exact details of this event are not in scripture.

It's not known if those resurrected were glorified bodies, or like Lazarus, or exactly who they were, in terms of being any whole groups, just that they were saints. The scripture seems to imply they were known to living people at the time, as you'd have to wonder how a stranger, appearing to the people, would necessarily mean anything, what this would have demonstrated. Also, it's not like the rapture or a general resurrection: this group is appearing to people around Jerusalem, out on the streets or whatever, as the Lord appeared to many, spent time on earth to show His resurrection, prior to His ascension. The big resurrections are yet future in subsequent scripture.

There is one interesting theory from scripture, that this group were glorified saints of a firstfruits type, like Christ, hearkening back to a small, sample grain offering and possible prophecy of the event, here in scripture,

Leviticus 23:10-12 Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. And on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb a year old without blemish as a burnt offering to the LORD.

What I've wondered about these people, though, is how they could be glorified and no mention of the ascension of others to heaven, as the Lord Jesus ascended, though lack of mention proves nothing, of itself.

The honest answer, in any case, is that nobody knows the details of this, all theologians have ever done is offer possible explanations. Granted there is the obvious question, around here: but what could anybody have known the past couple thousand years, who didn't have an anonymous message board login? If you see it on ChristianChat, it's got to be true! (Though hardly anybody agrees... hmm...)

isn't Christian chat a discussion forum? I think the issue would be people taking blindly what someone offers as an explanation. every believer needs to Go to God Himself for wisdom. I honestly don't see harm in discussion of things and The "spirit Knows and searches all things, even the deep things of God." if everything everyone ever suggested I reject as just their theory, there would be a lot I would never understand properly. discussion is a good thing, especially in a discussion forum, thanks for the informative response God bless

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm thinking that the dead had to be judged somehow.
And Jesus is the first born out from among the dead.
And Jesus ascended to His Father.
And He led captivity captive so I think it is probably also a rapture but people will argue with me if I call it that.

Greetings Chuckt and Jasonj,

If I may jump in here, when a Believer dies 2 Cor.5:6-8 and Phil.1:23, make it clear that at the time of death, the spirit/soul departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection, for the word "anastasis" translated "Resurrection" only has to do with the "body" and not the spirit/soul. The word is made up of aná, "up, again" and hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to the physical resurrection (of the body).

From the on-set of the church, the spirits/souls of believers who have died have departed from their bodies at the time of death and go to be in the presence of the Lord. When the next phase of the first resurrection takes place (Jesus being the first) Jesus will bring with him all of the spirits/souls of those who have died and have been in his presence and their bodies will be resurrected where they will be reunited with them (1 Thes.3:13, 4:14). A Nano second after that, the living in Chirst will be transformed into their immortal, glorified bodies wherever they are and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. Then according to John 14:1-3, Jesus will take the entire group back to the Father's house.

Regarding anyone who was brought back to life by the Lord or the apostles, those people were brought back to life in their mortal bodies, as no one has yet been resurrected into those immortal, glorified bodies. Lazarus, Jairus daughter Tabitha and all those who came out of their tombs died again and will be resurrected when the resurrection takes place. When Jesus led out those that were in that compartment where father Abraham and Lazarus were, it was their spirits/souls that were led out and not their bodies.

Also, the place where Abraham and Lazarus were was Sheol, which is synonymous with Hades, both being the same place and which is under the earth and not in heaven. Regarding this, please consider Jesus words:

"And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Regarding those who die in their sins who are not in Christ, they continue to go or are taken to sheol/Hades where just like the rich man, they will remain there in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment, which is where all of the unrighteous dead will be judged, which will take place after the thousand year reign of Christ (Rev.20:11-21)

I hope this information is useful

 

[Ahwatukee]

I was wondering if it tied into those who revelation says "no lie was found in their mouths they are blamesless" because it is written many holy people" I just seem to think constantly about these things no matter what I'm doing at times

Hello Jasonj,

That group who will have "no lie in their mouths" which are the 144,000, is a future group referred to collectively as the "Male Child" who will come out of Israel (gives birth to) who are the first fruits to God out of Israel and who will be all males (Rev.14:4). Unlike Israel proper, these first fruits will recognize that Jesus is their Messiah and will be sealed on their foreheads (Rev.7:2) and will be caught up to God's throne during the middle of that last seven year period (Rev.12:5).

 

[Ahwatukee]

as I was reading here I'm reminded that Jesus told mary outside the tomb 3 days after his death that he hadn't yet returned to the father. knowing that he did commit his spirit to God at the cross, and knowing jesus who spoke always in the spirit...I wonder about the definition and explaination in this dictionary. definitely is making me think about some things and that was my thought process in posting.im lead now to a lot of other things to consider, thanks again for the insight

Hello again jasonj,

When Jesus said to that man crucified next to him, "today you will be with me in paradise" he was speaking of that same place where Abraham and Lazarus were and not heaven. When Jesus said to Mary, "I have not yet ascended to my Father" that would be period, meaning neither bodily nor in spirit. When Jesus died, the actual words that he said were "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit," which doesn't necessarily infer that he his spirit went to heaven, but that he was putting his spirit in God the Father's trust. I believe that when Jesus said that he would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, that it was also referring to his spirit which was down in Sheol in the compartment of paradise, where at some point after his resurrection he removed the spirits/souls all of the OT saints, including Abraham and Lazarus.

 

[Willie-T]

There is nothing in the text that compromises individual application. It isn't about just Israel and Gentiles. Jesus even names the man "Lazarus," the only time a personal name is used in a parable. We see great application in terms of skewed values and God's authority even over the afterlife.

Spend even 15 short minutes researching that name, and why and how Jesus used it.

 

[Willie-T]

ahhh thank you lol makes a little more sense now. do you know if there are any scriptures that they base this belief on? and Abrahams bosom would be a waiting area for the righteous then?

You would surprise yourself if you went to find the other places "Abraham's Bosom" is mentioned.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have a lot of speculation on that deal with dead men walking and where the thief on the cross went after death, but that is all they are -- speculations. The Bible doesn't tell us more.

Y'all do understand you're giving each other theories, right? Theories, not doctrine. I worry about people turning theories into doctrine on here too easily.

Hello Depleted,

Actually, regarding the thief on the cross, it is not speculation, but spiritual logic. Jesus told the man "today you will be with me in paradise." Regarding this, we know that both Jesus and the thief died that very day. So the question would be, if they both died, what did Jesus mean when he promised the thief that they would be in paradise that same day? When their bodies died, their spirits/souls were released and because we know that scripture states that Jesus was in the heart of the earth, then that is where he and the thief went. The only place mentioned in scripture that they could possibly go would be to same place where Abraham and Lazarus were. When the rich man asked to have Lazarus to dip his finger in the water to cool his tongue, Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." So, this place had water and Lazarus was comforted, ergo, a place of temporary paradise.

 

[Willie-T]

Here's an interesting thought for those of us who fight to read the Bible with all the "commas" we find there.
The languages the Bible was written in didn't have even a one of those convenient punctuation marks we depend so heavily upon.
The verse is usuaslly written in our English as:

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


For as close as we can come to the actual intent (since so little 'context' is given through accompanying and supporting words), that verse could have just as easily read:

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you this day...... you will be with me in paradise.”

And, since we know that it took three days before Jesus was raised, it is not likely He was in the "Paradise" of some sort of Heavenly place as we want to imagine, on the day He spoke those words, and He and the two thieves died.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Unfortunately, although this makes for a fine story to base a "doctrine" on, there is no way to get around the fact that it was simply told as a parable about Israel and the Gentiles.

That is conjecture on your part Willie! If you will read the scripture at face value, then it means what it says. However, if you arbitrarily assign it to being a parable, then it loses its meaning. Furthermore, there is nothing in the event of the rich man and Lazarus that would even hint that it is a parable. In fact, a parable always has symbolism representing the literal, wheat = son's of the kingdom, field = earth, harvesters = angels, etc. That said, the event of the rich man and Lazarus uses the names of real people and the real location of Hades. To interpret this as a parable would be to miss the Lord's teaching. This has been made into a parable by the people who believe that the body, soul and spirit returns to the ground at the time of death and that because the event of the rich man and Lazarus being a literal, actual event destroys their belief and so they have to circumvent it, which is what you are repeating and which is what many do, that is, repeat heresay.

 

[Ahwatukee]

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Yep, this another well know false teaching that I have encountered many times created by those who believe that the body, soul and spirit returns to the earth when a believer dies. The reason that they say that the comma is in the wrong place, is because it destroys there belief in this. By putting the comma after today would be ridiculous, as it would make Jesus sound like a thespian, "And truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Why in the world would Jesus need to tell the man that he was telling him that information "today" when the man knew when he was telling and that because he was there face to face with him? What is also significant is that, every single major interpretation has the comma before the word "today." If these people whom God chose to translate his word are all wrong here, then what other scriptures have they improperly translated. Ether this is the word of God or it isn't!

Parallel Verses
New International Version
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

New Living Translation
And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Berean Study Bible
And Jesus said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Berean Literal Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

International Standard Version
Jesus told him, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NET Bible
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I say to you that today you shall be with me in Paradise.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

New American Standard 1977
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.

American Standard Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

English Revised Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Weymouth New Testament
"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Young's Literal Translation
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

 

[Willie-T]

That is conjecture on your part Willie! If you will read the scripture at face value, then it means what it says. However, if you arbitrarily assign it to being a parable, then it loses its meaning. Furthermore, there is nothing in the event of the rich man and Lazarus that would even hint that it is a parable. In fact, a parable always has symbolism representing the literal, wheat = son's of the kingdom, field = earth, harvesters = angels, etc. That said, the event of the rich man and Lazarus uses the names of real people and the real location of Hades. To interpret this as a parable would be to miss the Lord's teaching. This has been made into a parable by the people who believe that the body, soul and spirit returns to the ground at the time of death and that because the event of the rich man and Lazarus being a literal, actual event destroys their belief and so they have to circumvent it, which is what you are repeating and which is what many do, that is, repeat heresay.

I can give you literally dozens of reasons this is a parable. But, I have learned that you are one of the hardheads here who never listens anyway.

But I would like you to tell me how Lazarus got to Heaven before Jesus, when Jesus was the FIRSTborn of all of us, and He hadn't even died yet..
And, then, how is it that the Rich Man was suffering in torment (Hell) without ever being judged yet?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I was actually just looking to get peoples thoughts on the subject, basically what ive gotten for the most part is scripture quotes, dictionary definitions ect. I appreciate the thoughts of other Christians and the purpose of it all is to come into a knowledge together. the church isn't meant to be so divided over every issue or topic. I honestly have plenty of Knowledge of scripture, my desire is to hear what other believers think about the scriptures we have all read and can repeat to each other.

Jasonj, peoples thoughts are not scripture, but just their thoughts. The only way to know what God is saying is through scripture, ergo, the scripture quotes. Anything else outside of the word of God is conjecture. Scripture is the only way to come to any Biblical understanding on any subject.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I can give you literally dozens of reasons this is a parable. But, I have learned that you are one of the hardheads here who never listens anyway.

But I would like you to tell me how Lazarus got to Heaven before Jesus, when Jesus was the FIRSTborn of all of us, and He hadn't even died yet..
And, then, how is it that the Rich Man was suffering in torment (Hell) without ever being judged yet?

And you are one of those who repeat hearsay! I get my information from scripture and ignore these many false teachings that are out there. So, if that is being hardheaded, then praise be to God! And again, there is nothing in the event of the rich man and Lazarus that even hints at a parable. How did Lazarus go to heaven before Jesus? He didn't! The reference to Jesus being the "first born" is speaking about his being the first to be resurrected, which always refers to a bodily resurrection, as the word anastasis never refers to the spirit/soul. Lazarus and Abraham were in their spiritual states, not yet having been bodily resurrected. Scripture makes it clear that when a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs and goes to be immediately in the presence of the Lord, while their bodies are decaying on earth. (2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:23)

And, then, how is it that the Rich Man was suffering in torment (Hell) without ever being judged yet?

What makes you think that a person has to be judged before experiencing punishment? The rich man died in his sins and God knows those who belong to him. The rich man is in a temporary place of punishment called Sheol/Hades where he and others are in torment in flame and will remain there until the great white throne judgment, which is just due process of what God already knows, a formal hearing. In the mean time, the unrighteous begin their punishment in Hades until they are resurrection out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne where they will be judged for every idle word they spoke and for every sin committed (Rev.20:11-15). I challenge you Willie to stop just repeating the popular false teachings out in the world and actually study these topics for yourself.