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J
yeah I'm not saying scripture isn't Gods word. yet satan himself knows scripture and uses it for his own purposes is my point. I know scripture as do many people here. so tell me why is it that there are so many different beliefs coming from the same scripture? enlightenment comes not from how many scriptures we quote, it is rooted in understanding what God is saying through them. spiritual discernment is of importance. if the scripture was clear to everyone who quotes it, my question to you is how or why would you say there are 100 different theories? even from the first command of God in eden to adam, satan has quoted and distorted Gods words meaning for man. "do noe eat the fruit or you will die" was meant as a warning to guard mans life......satan knew what was said and why, yet He turned it into death. knowledge of scripture does not save. Thanks for the response and God bless. I'm looking for peoples understanding of the scripture, honestly there aren't any scriptures in the bible that anyone can quote to me that I haven't already studied. I say that in humility, but it is the truth.
J
do you consider that God was already in the body of Christ that He and the Father were one? so now many more things come up. where was God during these things? was He in some high heaven far removed? or was He with and in Jesus? Commiting His spirit to God at that moment, raises thoughts. the spirit descending at Jesus baptism raises thoughts. Jesus spirit was already with Him then the holy spirit descended???? or was that just a sign for people to believe? In Christ, for 27 years I have searched for a depth of understanding. I searched with my mind, my intellect, my understanding ect. and around 12 years ago I finally understood something important. There is no end to the knowledge and wisdom found in Christ. for a believer to come into a fuller knowledge and understanding of Christ Jesus, requires asking of God for wisdom, remaining humble in the understanding that one man one small group cannot attain the full knowledge of God, yet when the body of Christ comes together....not in disagreement or for debate, but for the purpose of Knowing Jesus more....Knowledge and also its wisdom abound for all who will partake. Thank you for this response I find a lot of sense in it, and appreciate your time
Obviously, in the spiritual realm, they do Willie and that because this is what the scripture states. Regarding this, we also have the souls under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal who are said to have been killed and who are having a conversation with the Lord and are given white robes to wear and told to wait a little longer (for their resurrection) until after their fellow brothers are to be killed in the same manner. I'm not stretching anything, for I am repeating scripture and expounding on it. It is you who are stretching it by ignoring what scripture states and interpreting it as a parable. The teaching that Jesus is giving here is that, punishment for sin is real, the location of punishment is real and there is no second chance for salvation after death. Therefore, to avoid punishment for sin, don't be like the rich man who was the antithesis of the good Samaritan. Hades/Sheol is only a temporary place of punishment, with the lake of fire being the final place for all whose names are not found written in the book of life. As I am writing this, there are literally thousands of the unfaithful who are pouring into Hades/Sheol 24/7.
J
does anyone look at it as Jesus teaching something when he talks of the rich man and beggar? when I look at this I don't really focus so much on the spelling of words or placement of punctiations so much. I don't feel it necessary to look into the greek origins of words, or theologins theories on the letters. the value I find is a lesson. the rich man looked down on the poor man, he was totally apathetic to the needs of the beggar. he refused to Help Jesus himself as he refused to help lazarus (the least of these) the beggar had a poor life, longed for simple things such as food. ect. the world was kind to the rich man, and cruel to the beggar. is there a connection here with its hard for the rich to enter heaven? or blessed are they who hunger? I find a lot of value in these words of Jesus, not on one level but many. I consider it a teaching for those of us who have all we need and more in material things, to have compassion on those who have great need. and I see Jesus saying if we are greedy and do not care for the needs of others...we will end up in a place of torment. just another angle on these things God bless
hi, but the response i was thinking when reading jasonj was that i too believe that God was with Him but commiting His Spirit to God at that moment was in death...so he fully trusted God and let go of everything i would think. The Spirit descending at Jesus baptism could have simply been He recieved more of the Father's will or knowledge sort of speak..becuz even the Lord does not know all about the Heavenly Father for He even stated as much when He said in what hour no man knoweth not even Him just the Father....i would like ur thoughts and i hope this is scriptural sound and helps alleviate some of your raised thoughts thank you brother!
J
this type of response is exactly what I was hoping for, because it is coming from your thoughts and understanding, I appreciate that a lot. honestly I am searching for something deep with the questions in my heart. I am not positive where The Lord is leading me, but I know it is a place that I belong and will find joy and peace. My thoughts are many and scattered after some of the conversation I have read here. I believe that Jesus has always been in Gods presence, I believe this based on the words of Christ who always spoke to God, and spoke of doing only what His father commanded him to do. spiritually( and God is spirit) He is present with us when we pray He is there to hear and answer. in a way I look at scripture that say things like "your life is now hidden with God in Christ" and consider that presently I am with Jesus before Gods throne, and He is present with me as I sit and type this response. When I see revelation talking of those who follow the lamb everywhere those from the great multitude, I believe it is presently all who have died in Christ" those who live and believe in Jesus and therefore will never die." I feel those who died under the mosaic Law wait for judgement, those in Christ live their judgement by our words and actions according to our faith. to me the judgement is our estate here and the moment we pass through we face the reward or punishment according to the justice and also Grace of God.......thank you for the thoughts and opportunity to ramble a bit lol God bless you
Taking all scripture into consideration, I believe that the Lord our God is One God, made up of individual persons. For example, in Revelation, God the Father is sitting on the throne and Jesus comes and takes the scroll out of his right hand. Like wise, when Jesus came up out of the water after being baptized, the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove, landing on him and then the Father speaking from heaven saying "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased." Dan.7:9-14 reveals God the Father sitting on the throne and Jesus being led into his presence. When Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared-- which is another proof of the spirit/soul being conscious and aware after death-- and the voice of God the Father from the cloud saying, "This is my Son, listen to him." These are just a few of the examples demonstrating that our God is One God, but individual persons that make up One God. How about this, "Let "Us" create man in "Our" own image, after "Our" likeness?" Or "Let "Us" go down and confound their language?"
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
Those who diligently search out the word of God, God rewards that person for his love of his word. I have done my own studies for over 40 years and God, through his Holy Spirit, has revealed many in depth truths regarding many Biblical topics. Therefore, God can reveal to the individual who is seeking him out and desiring to know what his word says. Otherwise, believers could not perform the following:
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
If I can't know the word of God, then neither I nor anyone else can do the above. Also, in the book of Revelation it states:
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
If I can't know the word of God, how can I read the words of the prophesies contained in book of Revelation as stated and the people hearing understand? In these last days, Satan has launched an all-out attack on the word of God, specifically regarding the resurrection and catching away and end-time events. And there are people who are carrying out these false teachings and thereby aiding in the distortion of God's word. God rewards the individual who searches out his word with spiritual knowledge which others are opposed to because they haven't received and they have just been repeating hearsay or whatever is on Youtube or on the internet.
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
To put the above into perspective, the great number of teachers are seminars, books, youtube, hearsay, what false teachers have written on the internet and churches with pastors who teach false teachings and people not knowing the difference because they are not studying the word of God, but are content to believe what they are being taught.
Forgive if I seem to be agitated, because I am! I am tired of all of the false teachings that are going on and which also keep increasing. So, whenever I see them posted, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, to rebuke, teach, correct and contend for the truth of God's word.
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
Those who diligently search out the word of God, God rewards that person for his love of his word. I have done my own studies for over 40 years and God, through his Holy Spirit, has revealed many in depth truths regarding many Biblical topics. Therefore, God can reveal to the individual who is seeking him out and desiring to know what his word says. Otherwise, believers could not perform the following:
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
If I can't know the word of God, then neither I nor anyone else can do the above. Also, in the book of Revelation it states:
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
If I can't know the word of God, how can I read the words of the prophesies contained in book of Revelation as stated and the people hearing understand? In these last days, Satan has launched an all-out attack on the word of God, specifically regarding the resurrection and catching away and end-time events. And there are people who are carrying out these false teachings and thereby aiding in the distortion of God's word. God rewards the individual who searches out his word with spiritual knowledge which others are opposed to because they haven't received and they have just been repeating hearsay or whatever is on Youtube or on the internet.
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
To put the above into perspective, the great number of teachers are seminars, books, youtube, hearsay, what false teachers have written on the internet and churches with pastors who teach false teachings and people not knowing the difference because they are not studying the word of God, but are content to believe what they are being taught.
Forgive if I seem to be agitated, because I am! I am tired of all of the false teachings that are going on and which also keep increasing. So, whenever I see them posted, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, to rebuke, teach, correct and contend for the truth of God's word.
J
first, you don't need to apologize, its a discussion and you have not offended me in any way. in fact I am appreciating your responses very much. I am not saying that you don't know Gods word, or scripture isn't Gods word ect. I'm saying this, or rather offering something for you to consider. I agree with much of what yopu have said, and cant ay I disagree with any of it haven't considered it much in prayer yet. the thing to you I would like to raise is this. do you feel as if you cant learn from another person who is seeking God sincerely? to clarify what I meant by not one person or a small group can understand the full knowledge of God, is that Unity in Christ is of great importance, one person is called to His own destiny and knowledge for the purposes set aside for Him in Christ. no one person will attain all understanding Christ is about the Body as a whole. Your zeal and also knowledge of scripture is clearly evident. To you I would only offer a consideration, that there is always something more to learn and often it requires acceptance that another person in Christ may have knowledge that I missed. I'm sure you have argued a lot as most do on the internet, that truly is not an interest of mine. I'm wondering who really knows what? and pondering how so much division has been created in the most beautiful and harmonic concept I have ever Known...Christianity. A belief system governed by brotherly Love, by humility and unity. I'm bewildered at the fact that it is more divided than the many groups who oppose it in every way. The non believers are unified against Christ, while the believers argue toward unfruitful vanity and pride. and I think that every kingdom divided against itself will fall. thank you again for all the informative responses and I will consider them truthfully. God bless
Max lucado must have read some of the posts on this forum.......
Max Lucado (In the Eye of the Storm)
The Old Man and the White Horse
Once there was an old man who lived in a tiny village. Although poor, he was envied by all, for he owned a beautiful white horse. Even the king coveted his treasure. A horse like this had never been seen before – such was its splendor, its majesty, its strength.
People offered fabulous prices for the steed, but the old man always refused. “This horse is not a horse to me,” he would tell them. “It is a person. How could you sell a person? He is a friend, not a possession. How could you sell a friend.” The man was poor and the temptation was great. But he never sold the horse.
One morning he found that the horse was not in his stable. All the village came to see him. “You old fool,” they scoffed, “we told you that someone would steal your horse. We warned you that you would be robbed. You are so poor. How could you ever protect such a valuable animal? It would have been better to have sold him. You could have gotten whatever price you wanted. No amount would have been too high. Now the horse is gone and you’ve been cursed with misfortune.”
The old man responded, “Don’t speak too quickly. Say only that the horse is not in the stable. That is all we know; the rest is judgment. If I’ve been cursed or not, how can you know? How can you judge?”
The people contested, “Don’t make us out to be fools! We may not be philosophers, but great philosophy is not needed. The simple fact that your horse is gone is a curse.”
The old man spoke again. “All I know is that the stable is empty, and the horse is gone. The rest I don’t know. Whether it be a curse or a blessing, I can’t say. All we can see is a fragment. Who can say what will come next?”
The people of the village laughed. They thought that the man was crazy. They had always thought he was a fool; if he wasn’t, he would have sold the horse and lived off the money. But instead, he was a poor woodcutter, an old man still cutting firewood and dragging it out of the forest and selling it. He lived hand to mouth in the misery of poverty. Now he had proven that he was, indeed, a fool.
After fifteen days, the horse returned. He hadn’t been stolen; he had run away into the forest. Not only had he returned, he had brought a dozen wild horses with him. Once again, the village people gathered around the woodcutter and spoke. “Old man, you were right and we were wrong. What we thought was a curse was a blessing. Please forgive us.”
The man responded, “Once again, you go too far. Say only that the horse is back. State only that a dozen horses returned with him, but don’t judge. How do you know if this is a blessing or not? You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge? You read only one page of a book. Can you judge the whole book? You read only one word of one phrase. Can you understand the entire phrase?”
“Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. All you have is one fragment! Don’t say that this is a blessing. No one knows. I am content with what I know. I am not perturbed by what I don’t.”
“Maybe the old man is right,” they said to one another. So they said little. But down deep, they knew he was wrong. They knew it was a blessing. Twelve wild horses had returned. With a little work, the animals could be broken and trained and sold for much money.
The old man had a son, an only son. The young man began to break the wild horses. After a few days, he fell from one of the horses and broke both legs. Once again the villagers gathered around the old man and cast their judgments.
“You were right,” they said. “You proved you were right. The dozen horses were not a blessing. They were a curse. Your only son has broken both his legs, and now in your old age you have no one to help you. Now you are poorer than ever.”
The old man spoke again. “You people are obsessed with judging. Don’t go so far. Say only that my son broke his legs. Who knows if it is a blessing or a curse? No one knows. We only have a fragment. Life comes in fragments.”
It so happened that a few weeks later the country engaged in war against a neighboring country. All the young men of the village were required to join the army. Only the son of the old man was excluded, because he was injured. Once again the people gathered around the old man, crying and screaming because their sons had been taken. There was little chance that they would return. The enemy was strong, and the war would be a losing struggle. They would never see their sons again.
“You were right, old man,” They wept. “God knows you were right. This proves it. Your son’s accident was a blessing. His legs may be broken, but at least he is with you. Our sons are gone forever.”
The old man spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. No one knows. Say only this. Your sons had to go to war, and mine did not. No one knows if it is a blessing or a curse. No one is wise enough to know. Only God knows.”
Max Lucado (In the Eye of the Storm)
The Old Man and the White Horse
Once there was an old man who lived in a tiny village. Although poor, he was envied by all, for he owned a beautiful white horse. Even the king coveted his treasure. A horse like this had never been seen before – such was its splendor, its majesty, its strength.
People offered fabulous prices for the steed, but the old man always refused. “This horse is not a horse to me,” he would tell them. “It is a person. How could you sell a person? He is a friend, not a possession. How could you sell a friend.” The man was poor and the temptation was great. But he never sold the horse.
One morning he found that the horse was not in his stable. All the village came to see him. “You old fool,” they scoffed, “we told you that someone would steal your horse. We warned you that you would be robbed. You are so poor. How could you ever protect such a valuable animal? It would have been better to have sold him. You could have gotten whatever price you wanted. No amount would have been too high. Now the horse is gone and you’ve been cursed with misfortune.”
The old man responded, “Don’t speak too quickly. Say only that the horse is not in the stable. That is all we know; the rest is judgment. If I’ve been cursed or not, how can you know? How can you judge?”
The people contested, “Don’t make us out to be fools! We may not be philosophers, but great philosophy is not needed. The simple fact that your horse is gone is a curse.”
The old man spoke again. “All I know is that the stable is empty, and the horse is gone. The rest I don’t know. Whether it be a curse or a blessing, I can’t say. All we can see is a fragment. Who can say what will come next?”
The people of the village laughed. They thought that the man was crazy. They had always thought he was a fool; if he wasn’t, he would have sold the horse and lived off the money. But instead, he was a poor woodcutter, an old man still cutting firewood and dragging it out of the forest and selling it. He lived hand to mouth in the misery of poverty. Now he had proven that he was, indeed, a fool.
After fifteen days, the horse returned. He hadn’t been stolen; he had run away into the forest. Not only had he returned, he had brought a dozen wild horses with him. Once again, the village people gathered around the woodcutter and spoke. “Old man, you were right and we were wrong. What we thought was a curse was a blessing. Please forgive us.”
The man responded, “Once again, you go too far. Say only that the horse is back. State only that a dozen horses returned with him, but don’t judge. How do you know if this is a blessing or not? You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge? You read only one page of a book. Can you judge the whole book? You read only one word of one phrase. Can you understand the entire phrase?”
“Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. All you have is one fragment! Don’t say that this is a blessing. No one knows. I am content with what I know. I am not perturbed by what I don’t.”
“Maybe the old man is right,” they said to one another. So they said little. But down deep, they knew he was wrong. They knew it was a blessing. Twelve wild horses had returned. With a little work, the animals could be broken and trained and sold for much money.
The old man had a son, an only son. The young man began to break the wild horses. After a few days, he fell from one of the horses and broke both legs. Once again the villagers gathered around the old man and cast their judgments.
“You were right,” they said. “You proved you were right. The dozen horses were not a blessing. They were a curse. Your only son has broken both his legs, and now in your old age you have no one to help you. Now you are poorer than ever.”
The old man spoke again. “You people are obsessed with judging. Don’t go so far. Say only that my son broke his legs. Who knows if it is a blessing or a curse? No one knows. We only have a fragment. Life comes in fragments.”
It so happened that a few weeks later the country engaged in war against a neighboring country. All the young men of the village were required to join the army. Only the son of the old man was excluded, because he was injured. Once again the people gathered around the old man, crying and screaming because their sons had been taken. There was little chance that they would return. The enemy was strong, and the war would be a losing struggle. They would never see their sons again.
“You were right, old man,” They wept. “God knows you were right. This proves it. Your son’s accident was a blessing. His legs may be broken, but at least he is with you. Our sons are gone forever.”
The old man spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. No one knows. Say only this. Your sons had to go to war, and mine did not. No one knows if it is a blessing or a curse. No one is wise enough to know. Only God knows.”
J
I understand brother, in the end I would only offer a thought. what is worth contending in light of Gods unyielding desire for His people to be as one ? if a Christian is preaching you don't need Jesus, there is a time to speak up in accordance with the spirit of God. if a Christian doesn't understand the principle of" wich day the Sabbath is really on" or some other matter not directly connected to salvation in Christ....sometimes in favor of unity we should pray and hold our tongue because we see that the person is striving toward knowing Christ more and we do not want to un intentionally offer a stumbling block. I do understand your zeal and am not criticizing, just felt as if I should offer this one consideration. thank you again