Did He, Or Didn't He?

[thepsalmist]

faith produces works, because people are fully assured of the person they trust (true meaning of faith)

If a person comes to your church, and claims to have faith, but never does anything but live like the world. You can rest assured, That persons faith is dead. and he is most likely not saved, never had been, You can learn to give him the gospel message, because that is what he needs And james would be a great book to start..

for a person who claims to have faith, But you see the love of Gd in him as he serves others (works) you can know. That guy is most likely saved, And james was not talking to that person. Because they have works that those who have true faith will have.

What james is not saying, is a person must be saved by works, and thus could lose salvation.

I agree fully that no one can be saved by their own works.

I agree also that James here is moreover distinguishing between the one who has faith and one who does not.
A persons self-proclaimed faith is certainly dead if he is not bearing good fruits...Many are sadly unaware that they have no living faith.

Thanks for responding to my query EG.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's like saying moving our lips stops being required to speak, and starts being our desire.

This makes no sense.

You do not desire to speak?

Oh and by the way, People speak quite coherently, and never move their lips.. Nice try!

 

[FreeNChrist]

They simply do not understand Sanctification. They remain Carnal Christians as Paul spoke of, and have not yet become Spiritual Christians.............pray that they will eventually grow in SPIRITUAL understanding of Scripture.

They can not see past the Carnal wall of the Law, and accuse others of being "Legalists." When, it is they who are stumbling at the Stumbling Stone, for they have yet to grow into Spiritual understanding, and receive Spiritual sight.

Yeah, we can all feel what a spiritual Christian you are.

 

[PeterJens]

Being born again - Now that is a reality for every believer. I am born again by the Spirit of Christ. How do I know that?

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
1 John 5:1

But people here are adding something else to their gospel which they are not being honest about.

I think it is a mystical belief everything is done by God and we do nothing.

Language is a limitation, and some believe I am their enemy and not of the Lord. But when you see your mother and all the resentment and hurt rise and love is the last thing you are thinking about, that is your emotional reality.
You then work through forgiving for the hurts, actually from your heart forgiving them.
When that is over you begin to see the good things they have in their life and their struggles. And finally with Jesus you see them as someone who you can love. Now each step of this road is hard, brutal, painful, difficult. But it is a choice, and Jesus says we need to walk it. I have never known anyone who walked this and it just happened. This is following Jesus, doing what He does, being there. When you arrive you will begin to understand the gospel at its core, what it really means face to face, you and me with Jesus.

Unless you have walked this road you have no idea what I am talking about, which I suspect some "christians" are showing all the signs of never been there. Unless you walk this road Jesus does not mean anything, faith evaporates and it is just religion and words.

 

[Grace777x70]

Abiding in the Vine:

A promise, not a condition

Jesus told the disciples, you are in me (our imperfections are hidden in His perfection) and I am in you (we carry His sinless DNA). Jesus didn’t sin and He won’t ever sin. If you let Him live His life through you, then without any conscious effort on your part you’re going to start talking and acting just like sinless Jesus. This is a glorious promise for all who believe:

“Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” (1 Jn 3:9)

So what does it mean to abide in the vine? ...…

“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 Jn 4:15)

Have you confessed that Jesus is the Son of God? Then God abides in you and you in Him. You may wonder, But how did this happen? All I did was confess. Well you could not have believed and confessed Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit had led you to do so (1 Cor 12:3). The work and the glory are all His. Rest in that!

The trouble is, you can’t rest because somewhere inside there is a little voice that’s asking, Can I abide today and not abide tomorrow? Can I be in the vine one moment and cut off the next? Why would Jesus tell his disciples to abide if there wasn’t any danger of not abiding?

The problem, as usual, is found between our ears. Most of us have grown up with a slave mentality that says our value is determined by what we do. This was certainly true of the disciples who had been born and bred under the law. They were conditioned to think in terms of their performance. This works mindset is also evident in some of our English translations:

“Remain in me, and I will remain in you.” (Jn 15:4, NIV)

Again, that sounds like a condition. It sounds like Jesus is saying, if your abiding performance is up to scratch, then I will reward you by abiding as well. But it is not a condition to make us sweat; it is a promise to make us rest.

In John 15 Jesus goes to great lengths to counter the law-mentality of the disciples. He does this by hitting them with promise after promise:

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.” (Jn 15:9)

How does the Father love Jesus? Ask yourself this question: How many miracles or works had Jesus done when the Father declared from heaven, “this is my beloved Son?” None!

The Father loves Jesus unconditionally, without any reference to His performance or fruit. That means that Jesus loves us unconditionally! He wants us to rest in His unconditional love.

You’re free? Be free!

... – if you think abiding is something we must do, then understand that the evidence of abiding is zero sin. This is humanly impossible.

The only logical response to the command “abide!” is to trust in Jesus and His performance and quit trying to impress Him with yours. The word “abide” connotes “rest” and “surrender,” not “struggle” and “try harder.”

Trust God, the abiding issue is all settled from His side. “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him.” But it may not be settled from your side. You may still be struggling with that old servant mentality.

Instead of rest there is insecurity. Instead of joy there is anxiety. Am I in? Can I be cut off? If this is you, let Jesus speak to your insecurity:

“I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (Jn 8:34-36)

The reality is, you are free indeed because Jesus has set you free. The reality is, you are abiding in the vine because you have confessed Him as Lord. But you may not be experiencing that reality.

You may feel like you’re not free or you’re not abiding. Although you are a son with a permanent place in the family, you may still think and act like the slave that you used to be. There’s only one solution: renew your mind! Stop living by feelings and start walking by faith. You are abiding in fact, so start abiding in practice.

When Jesus said, “anyone who does not abide in Me is cast out as a branch, withers, and is thrown into the fire,” He was not referring to fruitless Christians. (They are lifted up.) He was describing those who refuse to believe to that He is the Son of God. He was describing those who are looking for life outside of the true vine.

If you have confessed Jesus as your Lord, then walk in that the truth: You are free, God Himself abides in you, and as a son or daughter you have a permanent place in His family.

Thank you Jesus!

 

[FreeNChrist]

I agree fully that no one can be saved by their own works.

I agree also that James here is moreover distinguishing between the one who has faith and one who does not.
A persons self-proclaimed faith is certainly dead if he is not bearing good fruits...Many are sadly unaware that they have no living faith.

Thanks for responding to my query EG.

You vying for the position of fruit inspector?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I do not want to trust myself to have the ability to abide completely in Christ, I want to trust God to be by my side and never let me go as he promised.[/B][/COLOR]

You want GOD to do everything for you, and in doing so reject the ability he has given you to do things for yourself that he cannot do. Your concept of GOD is like Luther's who viewed GOD as riding us like a horse, rather than as men made in his image who are freed from the power of evil to do good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

FROM SCRIPTURE:

[I believe the Scripture is the Inspired Word of God, and is given to us for a Purpose]

Revelation 3:11) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 .) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 .) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 .) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 .) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 .) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 2:4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 .) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 .) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 .) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 .) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 .) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 .) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 .) For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Corinthians 5:6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 .) (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 .) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 .) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 .) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


People just confuse Salvation and Sanctification......................and that is a dangerous thing to do in my opinion...........anyway...........this is an old argument, and people will not change regardless...........

1. Rev 3 is talking about a CHURCH and God removing the lampstand from THAT CHURCH as being a light unto that city.
Not individual believers.

2. Eph 2: 8-10 states clearly, We are saved by faith not of ourselves (by works) lest we should boast. Those of us who are saved, Are made NEW CREATURES which will do the work of God.

3. Judgement seat. Set up for rewards. Gold silver precious stone, wood hey straw. But he himself will be saved... Not talking about earning eternal salvation. But being rewarded for what we do with our salvation.

finally..

Your right, People mix sanctification and salvation. You make salvation dependent on sanctification. When sanctification does not even start to occure until salvation. One is dependent on the other.

Paul we have been (past tense) justified Sanctified and glorified through Jesus..

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified (positionally), but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


when are you going to believe him, and start your walk with God.. and stop trying to earn your way in?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You really have no clue how much of a Calvinist you are. It permeates your thinking.

Back to this again.

That why you will never learn the truth of God. you are so focused on placing people under theological schools of thought, then sitting and actually listening to what they say..

You could not prove me wrong, so instead you attacked me, Typical fruit of a legalist.

My comment still stands prove me wrong. Saying I am a Calvinist does not prove yourself right or me wrong, it just makes you look like you have no argument. (And I am being nice and did not say what I wanted to say, but I hope you open your eyes and finally get the point )

 

[FreeNChrist]

You want GOD to do everything for you, and in doing so reject the ability he has given you to do things for yourself that he cannot do. Your concept of GOD is like Luther's who viewed GOD as riding us like a horse, rather than as men made in his image who are freed from the power of evil to do good.

ADOLPH E. KNOCH

nough said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

er....EG.... do you happen to know my beloved husband??

in my opinion, he's the dearest man to walk this earth, save One. and that's exactly what he does

hmmm... where could he have learned it?

Hopefully where all us husbands learn it.

From the one who loved us first,, We love, because God loved us..

 

[PeterJens]

Small observation Rev 2 & 3 is addressed to the believers, individuals in various locations who had as a community various different spiritual issues. All the letters end with if you are victorious, you will gain eternal life.

Now the calvanists(partial etc) will say no one in the church who is part of the elect would ever be threatened by this because they know God is only speaking to those over their who are not really saved. It is like people who carry a special ticket to heaven, and then fall deaf to warnings and encouragement to walk with Jesus.

Now to us spiritual simpletons, if God speaks we listen. If we have the problem, we work it through. Jesus is our Lord, we obey the King. It is like these people claim Jesus as their Lord but are happy to stay in rebellion. I do not think they understand the gospel or have walked in it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They simply do not understand Sanctification. They remain Carnal Christians as Paul spoke of, and have not yet become Spiritual Christians.............pray that they will eventually grow in SPIRITUAL understanding of Scripture.

They can not see past the Carnal wall of the Law, and accuse others of being "Legalists." When, it is they who are stumbling at the Stumbling Stone, for they have yet to grow into Spiritual understanding, and receive Spiritual sight.

You simply just do not understand justification.

A babe in Christ is completely justified. He just needs fed milk, and not meat..
Justification does not - sanctification only in the positional aspect of it..

I am in Christ, I am positional sanctified, what does this mean?

Eph 1: - [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, [SUP]9 [/SUP]having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, [SUP]10 [/SUP]that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[SUP][a][/SUP] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. [SUP]11[/SUP]In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That is positional sanctification. Being IN CHRIST and having all those things

That is hope. that is something to have faith in.. That is not what you and your church and those like you offer anyone.. You offer them no hope. only conditional sanctification, Which is a term, which every believe must go through Your problem is you salvation is dependent on how well you do..

That is not of God.. and that is no hope to have faith in.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Back to this again.

That why you will never learn the truth of God. you are so focused on placing people under theological schools of thought, then sitting and actually listening to what they say..

You could not prove me wrong, so instead you attacked me, Typical fruit of a legalist.

My comment still stands prove me wrong. Saying I am a Calvinist does not prove yourself right or me wrong, it just makes you look like you have no argument. (And I am being nice and did not say what I wanted to say, but I hope you open your eyes and finally get the point )

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm witnessing against you for judgment day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree fully that no one can be saved by their own works.

I agree also that James here is moreover distinguishing between the one who has faith and one who does not.
A persons self-proclaimed faith is certainly dead if he is not bearing good fruits...Many are sadly unaware that they have no living faith.

Thanks for responding to my query EG.

Thank you for showing you understood what I meant, and not take what I say as offensive, and get so worked up you start saying I believe something else

 

[FreeNChrist]

Acts 10:43

"All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Being born again - Now that is a reality for every believer. I am born again by the Spirit of Christ. How do I know that?

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
1 John 5:1

But people here are adding something else to their gospel which they are not being honest about.

I think it is a mystical belief everything is done by God and we do nothing.

Language is a limitation, and some believe I am their enemy and not of the Lord. But when you see your mother and all the resentment and hurt rise and love is the last thing you are thinking about, that is your emotional reality.
You then work through forgiving for the hurts, actually from your heart forgiving them.
When that is over you begin to see the good things they have in their life and their struggles. And finally with Jesus you see them as someone who you can love. Now each step of this road is hard, brutal, painful, difficult. But it is a choice, and Jesus says we need to walk it. I have never known anyone who walked this and it just happened. This is following Jesus, doing what He does, being there. When you arrive you will begin to understand the gospel at its core, what it really means face to face, you and me with Jesus.

Unless you have walked this road you have no idea what I am talking about, which I suspect some "christians" are showing all the signs of never been there. Unless you walk this road Jesus does not mean anything, faith evaporates and it is just religion and words.

You do realize that being born again means you HAVE eternal life? (Born again means being made alive,,,)

SInce you do not believe in eternal life, You can not possibly believe you have been born again yet, According to you, eternal life is not given until the end right? (or is it assured only at the end)

either way, If you do not have eternal life, your not born again, period.

 

[FreeNChrist]

You want GOD to do everything for you, and in doing so reject the ability he has given you to do things for yourself that he cannot do. Your concept of GOD is like Luther's who viewed GOD as riding us like a horse, rather than as men made in his image who are freed from the power of evil to do good.

Oh my, things we do that God cannot do???

I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm witnessing against you for judgment day.

Your a witness only of the heretical beliefs of ADOLPH E. KNOCH.

 

[p_rehbein]

Yeah, we can all feel what a spiritual Christian you are.

If you can, then good for you.............but if you still remain on milk, then you will one day truly enjoy the meat of the Word of God.......

Don't take my word for it, take God's Word........the Apostle Paul spent so very much time trying to teach/warn new believers of the need to get past/grow past the carnal part of Christianity...........Salvation.......and achieve the Spiritual part of Christianity.......Sanctification.

When we receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, it is HE who empowers us to DO the good works that God Himself has created us for. We are not robots, we are not sock puppets, we are His work, created and empowered to do the good works He has for us to do. We are not a "wind up toy" that God winds up each morning, we are individuals who can choose to do what He has for us to do, or not.