Once Saved Always saved....Read this

[PeacefulWarrior]

really? I"d say earplugs when listening to you would be more appropriate

C'mon now--that's a bit harsh.

Three of you "liked" this--after all that happened yesterday?!

I'm disappointed, once again.

"Gauntlets" implies we might need some protection when speaking with someone. "Earplugs" implies we should not even listen to this man's words. It has already been established that two wrongs don't make a right -- let's be reasonable.

 

[Grace777x70]

I reject all doctrines that teach humanism inserted in them. I will gladly and prayerfully block out and ignore those that teach otherwise...we need to guard our hearts from this. "See to it!...no one takes you captive."..to me, part of the "see to it.." is to ignore them and walk on with the Lord.

I for one will not listen to humanism and self-righteousness after trying to deal with them multiple times again unless I see repentance. I'm guarding my heart!..That is our part...the Lord will do the rest as we trust in Him.

When you tell someone over 30x times the same thing and then they still say the complete opposite of what you say - there is a massive deception going on of some sort....so I stay completely away from people like that and have nothing to do with them....I bless them and pray for them and then let the Lord reveal His grace to them by another.

People just "Christianize " things to try to validate self-righteousness.

Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
[SUP]8[/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Both sides of the argument are right that some aspects of their positions could be interpreted as described.

If you hold because you know Christ you will obey His commands as the desire to prove you know Christ you try and obey His commands without the power. What all the people arguing this case is we obey His commands because we know Christ and are empowered by the Holy Spirit, love and the word to follow.

The hyper grace group believe all sin is already forgiven so is not an issue. They condemn as evil conviction of your conscience, conviction of sin because it is making you feel you are not forgiven. The problem with this approach is people could very well be sinning and the conviction is 100% accurate and true and from God. So the whole process then becomes a license for sin by removing the conscience or even looking at the law or precepts at all, which one contributor suggested.

It is therefore a valid question to say this appears to be a license of sin. Now some argue because they are not bound to righteousness, as in the law, without condemnation, they are now free to walk in righteousness. The idea springs from the law creates condemnation and so failure, while the Spirit promotes acceptance which promotes righteousness.

Unfortunately many of us are not convinced this is the effect on people, rather without preaching about sin and righteousness and just acceptance, people stay in sin and are oblivious to its effects.

In fact some have testified to this themselves in their lives and came out of the grace camp for this reason.

Equally many in the grace camp came out of personal legalism so see this as the road to salvation, and everyone holding a different position as evil. To quote Budman "One drop of poison in a glass of water poisons the whole glass."

The problem is simple, it is very personal and both parties have people who miss Jesus, and both positions have their merits but not at the extreme. But if you polarise you end up with a destructive mess.

I appreciate your attempt to continue this discussion however, I do not understand what you have said here.

Can you clarify?

It seems you are showing that both sides of this argument--in their extreme form, are both flawed.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I reject all doctrines that teach humanism inserted in them. ...

I for one will not listen to humanism and self-righteousness ...

What do you mean?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Does anyone see any problem(s) with this article?

Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"

Answer: Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14-24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Another passage that sometimes causes confusion is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the word perfect should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” not “perfect,” in the sense of having no sin.

As human beings we are bound under the curse of Adam in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ in sinless perfection.

Source: Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?

 

[coby]

If everyone doesn't listen anyways what use is it to post about it? Just post jokes or something. At least everyone listens to those.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

If everyone doesn't listen anyways what use is it to post about it? Just post jokes or something. At least everyone listens to those.

Post about what?

Some do listen.

 

[Grace777x70]

Any doctrines that teach humanism and self-righteousness I will reject and will continue to do so. These are the way of the flesh trying to accomplish what the Lord Jesus already did in His finished work. They are relying on "themselves" for righteousness and not on Christ's righteousness alone.

Here is the definition of humanism below....I assume you know what self-righteousness is.."doing things" to earn or keep the salvation that is only obtained by grace through faith in Christ's completed work for us.

" an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.."

We can "Christianize" the above by adding Christ, Spirit, word, righteousness..etc...into what is actually being said about the gospel of the grace of Christ.

What do you mean?

 

[Grace777x70]

Those that have humanism and self-righteousness/holiness in their "gospel" find the below quote offensive...."This is called the way of the flesh".......this is a quote that FreeNChrist gave to us last year...

Quote:

" You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God. “Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."



Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ

 

[coby]

Post about what?

Some do listen.

About OSAS and hypergrace
I meant the earplugs comment. I start to wonder if people listen. If so why are there dozens of threads about the same thing?

 

[phil36]

Does anyone see any problem(s) with this article?

Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"

Answer: Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14-24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Another passage that sometimes causes confusion is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the word perfect should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” not “perfect,” in the sense of having no sin.

As human beings we are bound under the curse of Adam in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ in sinless perfection.

Source: Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?

The above is a good article. Well worth reading and thinking about and to further study upon.

 

[coby]

never mind

 

[coby]

Does anyone see any problem(s) with this article?

Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"

Answer: Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14-24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

The word translated “mature” in Ephesians 4:13 is the Greek word teleios. It is used throughout the New Testament to mean “perfect,” “complete,” “full-grown,” and “mature.” What Ephesians 4:13 teaches is that, the more we grow in Christ, the stronger and more unified we will be as a church. The verse does not teach that we will stop sinning.

Another passage that sometimes causes confusion is Colossians 1:28, which says, in some translations, that Paul wants to “present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” Also, in Colossians 4:12 Paul prays that we would “stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” In both verses, the word perfect should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” not “perfect,” in the sense of having no sin.

As human beings we are bound under the curse of Adam in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ in sinless perfection.

Source: Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?

Agree with most of it, but I don't believe Paul stayed the chief of sinners and kept on killing the saints.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

Good reminder in that second-to-last paragraph.

Thanks for sharing that quote.

I do not see how anyone would take offense to those words unless the first paragraph was directed at someone.

 

[Grace777x70]

Nope...not as far as the sanctification process goes....and one day when we are free from this flesh ( where the power of sin still resides ) whether when we die and go to be with the Lord or a rapture happens - we will be free from the flesh's influence....however..We are perfectly sanctified now in our inner man created in Christ..

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is already in us in Christ..in our inner man..the new creation.

There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior outwardly to reflect our true self in the Lord now. It's definitely a process!.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."


The question remains..is it us doing it by our own self-effort/righteousness/holiness?..or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives.

Does anyone see any problem(s) with this article?

Question: "Is entire sanctification / sinless perfection possible in this life?"

?

 

[phil36]

Agree with most of it, but I don't believe Paul stayed the chief of sinners and kept on killing the saints.

Hi Coby, you are disagreeing with something that is not in the article? Here is what the article says.

As human beings we are bound under the curse of Adam in this world. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The apostle Paul rebuked Peter for showing favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were imperfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

If you disagree with the above, you are actually disagreeing with Paul, thus scripture!

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Hi Coby, you are disagreeing with something that is not in the article? Here is what the article says.



If you disagree with the above, you are actually disagreeing with Paul, thus scripture!

I think she's just pointing out that Paul didn't continue to persecute Christians after he became Paul.

 

[coby]

Hi Coby, you are disagreeing with something that is not in the article? Here is what the article says.



If you disagree with the above, you are actually disagreeing with Paul, thus scripture!

He says he is the chief of sinners, but since he doesn't say anywhere else that he is still a sinner (he does say that he hasn't achieved perfection yet), I think he means he simply was the worst and God could even save him. Makes me think of Romans 7: I do what I don't want and then people say: Look Paul did what he didn't want to do too! without reading that he got out of that when he asked Jesus to deliver him and he walked in the Spirit.
He's not a blasphemer anymore, he says formerly:


12*And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting*me*into the ministry,13*although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did*it*ignorantly in unbelief.*14*And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.*15*This*is*a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.*16*However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

The question remains..is it us doing it by our own self-effort/righteousness/holiness?..or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives.

I want to better understand your question here.

"Is it us doing it by our own self-effort, or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives?"

First of all, I need to understand the "its"; are we talking about Sanctification?
As in, "Is Sanctification by our own effort, or Christ's?"

 

[phil36]

He says he is the chief of sinners, but since he doesn't say anywhere else that he is still a sinner (he does say that he hasn't achieved perfection yet), I think he means he simply was the worst and God could even save him. Makes me think of Romans 7: I do what I don't want and then people say: Look Paul did what he didn't want to do too! without reading that he got out of that when he asked Jesus to deliver him and he walked in the Spirit.
He's not a blasphemer anymore, he says formerly:


12*And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting*me*into the ministry,13*although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did*it*ignorantly in unbelief.*14*And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.*15*This*is*a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.*16*However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Thats good Coby, Paul affirms he certainly wasn't perfect nor sinless.