Once Saved Always saved....Read this

[thepsalmist]

He says he is the chief of sinners, but since he doesn't say anywhere else that he is still a sinner (he does say that he hasn't achieved perfection yet), I think he means he simply was the worst and God could even save him. Makes me think of Romans 7: I do what I don't want and then people say: Look Paul did what he didn't want to do too! without reading that he got out of that when he asked Jesus to deliver him and he walked in the Spirit.
He's not a blasphemer anymore, he says formerly:


12*And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting*me*into the ministry,13*although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did*it*ignorantly in unbelief.*14*And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.*15*This*is*a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.*16*However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

When Paul persecuted the apostles he WANTED to. There was no conflict in him at all. He believed fully in legalism and fully believed Jesus offended that.

After he met Jesus and understood how wrong he had been ... after he accepted Him as Lord and savior, he says he was chief of sinners for what he had done.

His dissertation about the struggle of the believer, however, was addressed to the reborn in Christ. It's a struggle we all face as born again Christians.

 

[Grace777x70]

It is by Christ's life in us that transforms us ..we participate in the process by beholding Jesus as in a mirror and by allowing our minds to be renewed to the truth that is in us in Christ....we see ourselves and then the Spirit changes us...and it is the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives"

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Are being transformed = passivevoice = which mean the Spirit of God in us is doing the transforming - not us by ourselves

This is the same as being transformed by the renewing of our minds in Romans 12:2

We participate by saying "Yes" and "Amen" to all the promises of God when they are revealed to us by His Spirit. We agree with the revelation of our Lord Jesus.

This is how we participate with the Spirit by keeping our minds set on the things about where Christ is and where we truly are now in our inner man. Col 3:1-4

I want to better understand your question here.

"Is it us doing it by our own self-effort, or the life of Christ with His fruit bearing in and through our lives?"

First of all, I need to understand the "its"; are we talking about Sanctification?
As in, "Is Sanctification by our own effort, or Christ's?"

 

[Grace777x70]

As far as whether Christians are sinners still by nature or are called saints now because of their new nature in the new creation in Christ created in righteousness and holiness.....there is a whole thread on it for those interested in these 2 views...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/128356-we-sinners.html

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Nope...not as far as the sanctification process goes....and one day when we are free from this flesh ( where the power of sin still resides ) whether when we die and go to be with the Lord or a rapture happens - we will be free from the flesh's influence....however..We are perfectly sanctified now in our inner man created in Christ..

Our whole being is sanctified, even our flesh. That is why it is imperative that we keep our vessel clean. The whole man is holy, or he is not holy at all. There is no such thing as a holy inner man and an unholy outer man. That's gnosticsim, pure and simple.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Agree with most of it, but I don't believe Paul stayed the chief of sinners and kept on killing the saints.

That's because he was no longer enslaved by sin. Compared to Christ, he was still a sinner.

 

[thepsalmist]

1 Cor 51-53

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

44 ... If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

There is spirit, soul and body ... we have already received a new spirit ... but new soul and body will be given at the last trump

Consider the souls under the altar in REV ... given new clothes (soul and body)

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

We participate by saying "Yes" and "Amen" to all the promises of God when they are revealed to us by His Spirit. We agree with the revelation of our Lord Jesus.

This is how we participate with the Spirit by keeping our minds set on the things about where Christ is and where we truly are now in our inner man. Col 3:1-4

I especially like this part because it shows a partnership between ourselves and the Holy Spirit (God).

God prompts us, by way of the Holy Spirit, and it's up to us to listen to this voice inside us or ignore.

 

[Grace777x70]

The body itself is not evil...it's the flesh with the power of sin that is in the body that is foreign to us.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT. Context will show which one is being talked about.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in

2) it is used when talking about self-effort

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.


The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

The body has the flesh in it ( with the power of sin still in the flesh )...thank God we will get a new body with the flesh with the power of sin not in it.

This is why when we die - we have no more influence from our flesh and we are free to learn without the lies and deception from the world, the devil or the flesh.


Romans 7:18-23 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[Grace777x70]

It comes naturally..we just naturally do good things from our heart without even thinking actually ..remember when Jesus said about the ones that went to prison and visited people there ..and the ones who fed the poor and helped out others?..They were not even aware of the good works they were doing.

They said to Jesus.."when did we do these things?"..when we do good things from the love of God in our hearts - it will be natural to us just like breathing...

I especially like this part because it shows a partnership between ourselves and the Holy Spirit (God).

God prompts us, by way of the Holy Spirit, and it's up to us to listen to this voice inside us or ignore.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Oswald Chambers has a good line on Sanctification: "Sanctification is an impartation, not an imitation."

Source article: Sanctification (2) | My Utmost For His Highest

 

[thepsalmist]

The body itself is not evil...it's the flesh with the power of sin that is in the body that is foreign to us.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT. Context will show which one is being talked about.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in

2) it is used when talking about self-effort

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.


The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

The body has the flesh in it ( with the power of sin still in the flesh )...thank God we will get a new body with the flesh with the power of sin not in it.

This is why when we die - we have no more influence from our flesh and we are free to learn without the lies and deception from the world, the devil or the flesh.


Romans 7:18-23 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Indeed ...

Spirit
We have received a new spirit - holy, pure - cannot sin.

Body
Still corrupt - what we struggle against - can still sin if we allow it.

Soul
Life as a person on earth - will be replaced with an eternal life with God - ( i wonder what my occupation will be? )

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen...

The body itself is not corrupt as Jesus had a body but it is the power of sin in the "flesh" which is in the body still until we die.....that is what is corrupt....it's this power of sin in the flesh that makes our bodies get old and decay...but new ones are coming!

A rider of scooters and teaching others how to do it....."heaven style"..will be one of your joys to do in eternal life...

Indeed ...

Spirit
We have received a new spirit - holy, pure - cannot sin.

Body
Still corrupt - what we struggle against - can still sin if we allow it.

Soul
Life as a person on earth - will be replaced with an eternal life with God - ( i wonder what my occupation will be? )

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The body itself is not evil...it's the flesh with the power of sin that is in the body that is foreign to us.

The flesh isn't foreign to us, it's our very nature. This IMO is why John said that the one who says he is without sin is a liar.

 

[thepsalmist]

I think when it comes to the body - a distinction must be made ...

Our brain is part of our body ... and has been programmed to sin most of our lives - we need to choose to use the updated software of the mind of Christ.

Our bodies (and brain of flesh) also became prey for the devil - accessible - when adam and eve sinned. We still struggle against that as well.

God separated light from dark but when Adam and Eve sinned they brought those separated factions back together, creating a gray substance.

 

[Grace777x70]

Our real nature is in Christ..granted to us by our good, loving Father!


Ephesians 2:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

2 Peter 1:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agree with most of it, but I don't believe Paul stayed the chief of sinners and kept on killing the saints.

One must remember, Paul made this comment towards the end of his life and ministry.

Paul saul sin as a lifetime thing, Not a past or future thing..

He saw himself as the chief of sinners, Even though he was no longer that Pharisee.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The body itself is not corrupt as Jesus had a body but it is the power of sin in the "flesh" which is in the body still until we die.....that is what is corrupt....it's this power of sin in the flesh that makes our bodies get old and decay...but new ones are coming!

You're trying to make a distinction between the flesh and the body. This is what I discerned about false grace beliefs after a series of your posts on this subject a while back.

"Grace believers" don't believe that it's possible to walk in righteousness with a consciousness of their sin nature, and the concomitant imperative to overcome it. Thus their need for methods to dissociate from what they call sin-consciousness, which essentially means ignoring the voice of their conscience.

This they do by considering the flesh and the body to be separate and distinct. In other words, mental separation is made between the flesh and the body, which allows for the belief that the body is sinless. The sinful flesh, then, simply becomes an idea that is compartmentalized in the mind and discarded (ignored, denied) because it is the old man that was crucified and no longer exists. This process of denying the existence of sinful flesh and identifying only with the incorruptible spirit and sinless body is what 'grace' believers call the renewing of the mind.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has a good description of this mental dissociation process in which a person only identifies with what they want to be (their identity as the righteousness of GOD), and blots out any consciousness or idea contrary to it (their sin nature).

f. Gnosticism offers a radical solution to the conflict of conscience. It is true that instances are very sparse. But the basic dualistic solution involves a full separation between the two egos. The true I of the Gnostic is identical with the divine world of light, while the other I belongs to the chaotic world and is thus to be abandoned. In the final analysis, then, there is no bad conscience for the Gnostic. Naturally this opens the door not merely to asceticism but also to libertinism.​

Paul talks about the two 'I's mentioned above in Romans 7-8, in which victory is found, not through denial of the sinful flesh's existence, but through not obeying it in grace through faith.​

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen..that's why it is so important to renew our minds on Christ and in His finished work. Set our minds on things of the spirit and not the flesh.

Growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ is paramount for us Christians. We are saved in this life and the next by His life! There is no greater revelation then in Christ and what He has already done for us in His finished work.

I think when it comes to the body - a distinction must be made ...

Our brain is part of our body ... and has been programmed to sin most of our lives - we need to choose to use the updated software of the mind of Christ.

Our bodies (and brain of flesh) also became prey for the devil - accessible - when adam and eve sinned. We still struggle against that as well.

 

[ember]

I think when it comes to the body - a distinction must be made ...

Our brain is part of our body ... and has been programmed to sin most of our lives - we need to choose to use the updated software of the mind of Christ.

Our bodies (and brain of flesh) also became prey for the devil - accessible - when adam and eve sinned. We still struggle against that as well.

God separated light from dark but when Adam and Eve sinned they brought those separated factions back together, creating a gray substance.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:2

17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Ephesians 4

 

[thepsalmist]

"A rider of scooters and teaching others how to do it....."heaven style"..will be one of your joys to do in eternal life..."-Grace

Hahahaha ... maybe my urban steed will be replaced by a cherubim?