Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

EG obviously will not agree with my point of view.

Now he says I am lying. He has said I am preaching works salvation. If he wants to make what I am saying into works salvation, that is his problem. I am just preaching scripture.

No matter how hard it is to accept, if you are born again, your heart is a slave to righteousness. If you find failure in your life it is something that needs work on.

Now we know the reality is coming to faith is not a zap to perfection time. It is a winning of your heart, followed by a faithful walk. It is learning love matters above anything else.

What is subtle is the basis of this walk is changed because scripture is changed, from legalism label, to only grace label.
Every verse, every book in the new testiment is labelled up and checked to see if it applies to the believer or not.

It is why you need the "right" teachers, the "right" knowledge, and submit yourself to the "right" oversight.

It is no longer good enough to free style with the "Holy Spirit" and let God teach you. No that is getting polluted by the legalists, which are all over the word of God. In fact take the word of God in the wrong way and you are satan.

Welcome to a cult, or groups like the watch tower, who give the right readings of each passage. And hello hatred of the tares sown in the church who must be weeded out who have the spirit of Jezebel.

So ofcourse we are never going to "get on" or agree, because this is just another heresy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The whole premise is you can never walk in fellowship before the Lord in purity and righteousness, even redeemed washed and purified. So though they claim they are freeing themselves from condemnation, they actually believe they deserve it.

So I claim I free myself from condemnation, and thus deserve salvation, Even though it is you who continually say I do not preach obedience is necessary.

Now can you please share with the room how a person you claim can live in sin and walk in disobedience can be saying he has freed himself from condemnation and justifies himself..

 

[gb9]

go read the Sermon on the Mount. are doing that every hour of every day?? because if you are not, and you don't accept Christ by faith, and receive grace, to hell you will go. compare yourself to this standard, then tell us how " righteous" you are in your works.

 

[Grandpa]

Your comment shows how unbiblical "grace" teaching really is.

​I am writing these [things] to you, hoping to come to you in a short time. But if I am delayed, [I am writing] in order that you may know how one must conduct oneself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

Older women likewise [are to be] reverent in [their] behavior, not slanderous, not enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, Titus 2:3​

And frankly, it contradicts what you said earlier about what the grace of GOD teaches.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13​

Galatians 3:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Hebrews 4:10-11

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Ephesians 2:8-10

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


The Pharisees of old were really upset with this doctrine, as well. So much so that they thought they should put these people to death.

The Pharisees thought the people who held this doctrine were against God, too.

Ecclesiastes says there is nothing new under the sun. It seems that way to me, too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Their response is the christian is called to be perfect which is impossible. The problem is "perfect" is in the eyes of the beholder. To say righteous, blameless, walking in love and the Holy Spirit, the apostles say this should be our position and should be our experience. If this is not possible, why did Jesus die on the cross, why are we called the body of Christ, holy, redeemed, a glory to the King of Kings.

So perfection is in the eye of the beholder. And not in the eyes of the creator? Thanks, I think you just simplified your position, and I now understand it.

By the way, If I could be perfect. Jesus would not have to come, He came because I am not perfect. And he loved me and wanted to restor me.

Just so you know what I believe, so you can not lie about that too.

Now I talk as I do, because I believe your heart can be cleaned, your emotions can respond on the inside the same as the outside, you can be really alive, rejoicing, knowing you are a child of heaven and Christ has done a new work in you.

Again, Just so the room knows what I believe, and not the lie Peter wants you to know.

I believe without eternal life in christ, and given the right to be called children of God by Jesus himself, the logos who was with God in the beginning, The hope which God, who can not lie promised before time began. is impossible,

ie, there is no hope if you have to rely on you rown personal righteousnessness, Your ability to be righteous, or your abiity to have faith, Because you, being human, are Bound to fail, And if you can fail, what hope is there?

I would rathe rplace my hope in christ, And run the race beside him, knowing i am secure in him,, As his child..

They do not hold to this, though they talk of grace, it is grace to a flawed and failed people who actually stay like that except of occasional miraculous healings. Anything else is of the flesh.

So God gives you grace as you are perfect. And not because you are like the tax collector who has to get on your knees,,

Thanks, again I now see your position,, (although I already knew it, Now I have it in your own words.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The truth is they are dishonest about what they believe

Can we get more proud than this?

This man does not know what we believe, Continues to lie about what we believe, COntinues to bear false witness, and has numerous people showing him his lies.

And instead of humbling himself and admitting his mistake and his sin, He blames it on us, It is all our fault. We are to blame, because we do not even know what we believe, and are not being honest.


If there is any more proof of someone acting like the pharisee, praising God he is not like the sinner, then I do not know what more proof one needs.

 

[PeterJens]

EG attempt at highlighting lies and failing

Righteousness - Obedience

Not answered, only we do not water it down, it is perfection, so by implication can never be met.

But think about this. If you can never meet righteousness, now or in eternity, surely then no one can be saved, ever. Walking with Jesus in eternity is walking without sin. He believed it is possible so the illusion of righteousness as impossible perfection has to be wrong.

Moral law as a standard rejected.

Not answered. Just a a bland statement no one fullfilles Moses law, but that is obvious because that is clearly in totality just for Israel. But the moral law is different but is also rejected.

Perfection as the moral guideline

But perfection without a base or principles is completely in the eye of the beholder, but this is obviously beyond EG to understand.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The truth is most of these people are ex-legalists who were trying to follow Jesus by implementing rules above everything else. They then project this on to everyone they meet, as their are now only two types of people in the world legalists or extreme grace followers.

See, You can not even get this right.

I was trying to live the standard you yourself are demanding everyone live under, And continually failing, thus I had to hide my sin, Lie about my sin, and become a hypocrite..

The sad things is, As I learned the hard way, Your way of righteousness is not even Gods.. I could not have been perfect even if I followed all your rules. Because I still would be considered a sinner.

And by the way, You have now been found to have even more lies.

You claim we believe in two gospels. legalism and extreme grace.

Well as I showed in an earlier post (which proves that is what I believe because I am not just making stuff up now.

There are three gospels

1. Licentious (what yu call hypergrace
2. grace through faith no work
3. Works (legalist)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have no problem with people outside the faith doing this, but within, and saying they are my brothers and sisters in the Lord, that is heresy and self destructive intent to wreck and uproot churches which is the very thing Jesus said he would not let the angels do until the day of judgement.

1. And yet another lie. Everyone one who would like to look back over all my posts, I have never stated Peter was my brother in Christ, In fact I have always denied he was my brother
2. The danger to the church is the legalistic attitude trying to tell the world to earn Gods love by being good righteous people. And not telling the world all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And how we need to be justified freely by the grace of God via his loving sacrifice.

 

[Grandpa]

EG attempt at highlighting lies and failing

Righteousness - Obedience

Not answered, only we do not water it down, it is perfection, so by implication can never be met.

But think about this. If you can never meet righteousness, now or in eternity, surely then no one can be saved, ever. Walking with Jesus in eternity is walking without sin. He believed it is possible so the illusion of righteousness as impossible perfection has to be wrong.

Moral law as a standard rejected.

Not answered. Just a a bland statement no one fullfilles Moses law, but that is obvious because that is clearly in totality just for Israel. But the moral law is different but is also rejected.

Perfection as the moral guideline

But perfection without a base or principles is completely in the eye of the beholder, but this is obviously beyond EG to understand.

Its easy to understand. But its wrong. All of it.

Romans 4:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason I am writing this is in response to EG and his claim I am slandering his group.

I lost track to how many lies you have said about me and my brothers and sisters in christ.

You should have left well enough alone, I will look on in the thread, I am sure I will find more lies.

You should have left well enough alone, I was ready to let it go last night, With blaim coming in and trying to calm us down.

But as most legalists, You can not just let things be, you have to prove your right. And in doing so, you just proved your wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

So I claim I free myself from condemnation, and thus deserve salvation, Even though it is you who continually say I do not preach obedience is necessary.

Now can you please share with the room how a person you claim can live in sin and walk in disobedience can be saying he has freed himself from condemnation and justifies himself..

In ideas we are poles apart. If you claim to be forgiven of all your sins, yet constantly walk in them you have a problem.
Are you saved at all, or is the sin you are walking in relevant?

Now some have decided the sin is irrelevant, because it is already forgiven, so you must ignore your conscience and conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is just the condemnation of the enemy of Gods people. So if you silence your conscience everything is rosy. Now the point I was making is your conscience serves a purpose and you should deal with it as Paul constantly refers to his clean conscience, and the need not to cause condemnation in others by doing something that causes them to be condemned by their conscience.

This concept is beyond EG, but what can I do. I cannot help someone who does not understand the point, heyho.

 

[PeterJens]

I lost track to how many lies you have said about me and my brothers and sisters in christ.
You should have left well enough alone, I will look on in the thread, I am sure I will find more lies.
You should have left well enough alone, I was ready to let it go last night, With blaim coming in and trying to calm us down.
But as most legalists, You can not just let things be, you have to prove your right. And in doing so, you just proved your wrong.

EG We live in different worlds. Now if I could understand your terms I might take you seriously. But lies about you and your group? Nothing I have said here is anything your group has not previously expressed or believed.

You also talk as if you have the moral high ground, and I am a slandering evil person. I do not know which planet you live on, but believing what you believe and thinking this is Jesus, is just nuts.

But God bless you, the Lord will use you despite your bitterness and anger. By the way I just thank you for your encouragement of me to pursue and understand exactly what you believe and why, because it will help the Kingdom of God grow all the more, Hallelujah.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As much as I love grace, this distinction between self righteousness and righteousness does not exist in scripture.

Never heard of the pharisee?

Never heard of righteousness by the law, which will never save anyone (self righteousness)

It looks Godly, Sounds godly, sadly even tastes Godly (in experience) but is far from god as could ever be.

Yep religion is not new, Paul had to fight it his whole ministry.

 

[PeterJens]

Righteous Perfection

Imagine the principle, walking with Jesus is only allowed if you are perfect, the best possible example of everything.
It would be impossible.

Now think of people who God regarded as acceptable.
King David - blood soaked, adulterer with many wives
Peter - Denier of Jesus, rebuker of Jesus's desire to go to the cross
Paul - Killer of christians, a religious man, who in his humbleness blessed the church through his wisdom and letters

Paul called Timothy to walk in purity and holiness.
Peter/John wrote to the disciples as people not in sin, but if they were they would find forgiveness through confession.

Jesus walked for 3 years with the apostles and they were not in constant sin, needing rebuking and confession.
No their walk was learning and growth in knowledge of Christ.

So rather than the walk being impossible perfection, it appears possible for mortal man.
And Pauls encouragement. We are righteous before God because of our faith, not our blamelessness before the law.

Paul regarded himself as blameless in the law, and Jesus when he met the rich young man, did not contradict his comment about obeying the law. It is all accepted as possible, which again contradicts the belief following the law is impossible.

But the failure Jesus said was trusting wealth and not following Him, but if you trust Jesus and follow him you will be perfect.

If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Matt 19:21

So this measure of righteous perfection as impossible is just heresy.

 

[PeterJens]

Never heard of the pharisee?
Never heard of righteousness by the law, which will never save anyone (self righteousness)
It looks Godly, Sounds godly, sadly even tastes Godly (in experience) but is far from god as could ever be.
Yep religion is not new, Paul had to fight it his whole ministry.

If I look at Jesus's teaching it is interesting. His critism of the pharisees is not about their righteousness, but their lack of identification of sin. He complemented them on their diligence over some issues, yet over important issues where they benefited, they had no problems compromising.

At heart Jesus said they had no heart, no love, no mercy, compassion or forgiveness. He called them white washed tombs, which inside were dead but outside looked nice.

Now you think the argument is about theology and are we forgiven or not. In reality the truth is, are our hearts pure and clean or contaminated and out of control. One good thing about those dedicated to a religious life is they are trying to deal with issues of the heart. You on the other hand do not care at all about what is going on inside, you would rather ignore this and just say it is forgiven, lets just have a praise time.

What matters to me above anything else is peoples hearts, and the promise Jesus can cleanse them and make them whole again.

I did not come to cc thinking this, but it is becoming more apparent this is the missing link. People know their emotional life is chaotic and Jesus is not Lord of their hearts, but they do not know how to bring this about.

It is what I hear mainly from the grace group, about failure in this area, to the extent talking about the heart is talking about defeat, and "the Lord says nothing about my inward life, so get lost"

 

[PeterJens]

See, You can not even get this right.
I was trying to live the standard you yourself are demanding everyone live under, And continually failing, thus I had to hide my sin, Lie about my sin, and become a hypocrite..
The sad things is, As I learned the hard way, Your way of righteousness is not even Gods.. I could not have been perfect even if I followed all your rules. Because I still would be considered a sinner.

EG get real. I do not know what sin you are talking about which defeated you.
You claimed you did not know Jesus at this time, so why on earth should you be able to conquer sin?

Now you are saying "your way" but you have never agreed what way you are talking about?

Now I accept you experience of faith is failure and defeat. But that does not mean I believe the same way you did or even I have the same defeats as you. That is 100% projection on your part.

Until you can just tell your story, and what failure you are talking about it is just opinion.

By the way your group does believe contradictatory things but ofcourse for you that cannot be true.

I spotted one. It is wrong to be convicted of sin as a believer because you are already forgiven, but it is fine to go around convicting people of imaginary sins because they are not believers even when they are.

The joke is God is not allowed to point out sin that is in the believers life, but it is fine for extreme grace believers to condemn christians as legalists and evil. Sounds like you are exalting yourself higher than God.

 

[ember]

I lost track to how many lies you have said about me and my brothers and sisters in christ.

You should have left well enough alone, I will look on in the thread, I am sure I will find more lies.

You should have left well enough alone, I was ready to let it go last night, With blaim coming in and trying to calm us down.

But as most legalists, You can not just let things be, you have to prove your right. And in doing so, you just proved your wrong.

a compass and a map might help

oh wait...66 books should have been enough

the main ingredient must be missing

oops

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

i have to ask : where is all these " people" who keep saying that obedience does not matter??? peter, h.r.f.t.d. , where are they???

Good question. Let me rephrase your question so that there's no room for doubt or equivocation:

"where is all these " people" who keep saying that obedience does not matter for salvation???"​

Since you're on a roll with such good questions, why don't you take the lead and tell us if you are one of these people?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

go read the Sermon on the Mount. are doing that every hour of every day?? because if you are not, and you don't accept Christ by faith, and receive grace, to hell you will go. compare yourself to this standard, then tell us how " righteous" you are in your works.

GOD's grace gives us the ability to live like that.