Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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Progress at last. Now legalism in EG's book is different to mine. Legalism for him appears to be anyone who does not believe like him, down a check list. It is like a list of how to identify a witch. Fall foul of one point and you are on the high jump, executed.
They are very keen to condemn others, coming out all guns blazing, but things like I was caught in sin and could not break out or gain victory, is a sad confession. It appears this is still the case, because it is not under grace I found victory.
If this was Jesus working in someone I would pray for them, but I am confused, because I do not know what to pray, or believe for them. They are like someone who has tasted of love and the truth but have rejected it for something else that does not bring life. If sin is in your life and you are not victorious you are not living in life. Repent, believe and walk in the grace of God, and claim the victory God will provide.
I doubt though there is faith here to do this, because the reason for following extreme grace is to say defeat is the reality.
They are very keen to condemn others, coming out all guns blazing, but things like I was caught in sin and could not break out or gain victory, is a sad confession. It appears this is still the case, because it is not under grace I found victory.
If this was Jesus working in someone I would pray for them, but I am confused, because I do not know what to pray, or believe for them. They are like someone who has tasted of love and the truth but have rejected it for something else that does not bring life. If sin is in your life and you are not victorious you are not living in life. Repent, believe and walk in the grace of God, and claim the victory God will provide.
I doubt though there is faith here to do this, because the reason for following extreme grace is to say defeat is the reality.
I can't believe I spent the last half hour or so, reading through this thread. However, It becomes apparent when you read through a thread like this and not take part, you actually see who knows what they are talking about. Whether you agree with them or not.
All I can say is the doctrines of grace are great (you'll need to think about that statement)!
All I can say is the doctrines of grace are great (you'll need to think about that statement)!
PW - This conclusion you are drawing is a hard one. The reason why is because people condemn themselves for many things that are not sins but unrealistic expectations. Someone quoted if people do not pray for a few days they are lost to God. Others have anger management issues, or addictions to smoking or other drugs. Some have long term relationship issues which all take time to work through. The sinful actions often hide a deeper issue, which needs tackling before the outward sins disappear.
When you start to get to know people, you will find things are not that black and white. This is why I am cautious about language and what people are calling sin and what is disfunctional behaviour, which need love and care to deal with.
Now people often take a step of faith and are unaware of different issues in their life, which then the Lord points out.
A struggle ensues, and the outcome is either victory or falling away. I rarely see the struggle being left without one of the outcomes. This is why Jesus called us to count the cost of the walk we are on.
When you start to get to know people, you will find things are not that black and white. This is why I am cautious about language and what people are calling sin and what is disfunctional behaviour, which need love and care to deal with.
Now people often take a step of faith and are unaware of different issues in their life, which then the Lord points out.
A struggle ensues, and the outcome is either victory or falling away. I rarely see the struggle being left without one of the outcomes. This is why Jesus called us to count the cost of the walk we are on.
What I discovered when trying to understand peoples beliefs is every individual has their version. Even worse each individual has their way of expressing it.
It often takes a long time and a lot of interaction to verbalise the words and finally come out with a summary. It will always be an approximation, but it will represent the group in general.
One area where this can hurt the brain is the trinity, or what constitutes a human. You begin to understand we vary a lot even within a particular belief group. But what you believe has impacts elsewhere.
A for instance, part of the wof/prosperity group believe in command theology, because believers are gods, with creative authority. Had one commanding me once, and saying if I was ill, accepting my illness made me ill.
Now it springs from who Adam is, a god or a mortal human. Jesus is the first born of the brothers, so for some this means they are Jesus, or as one guy said "I am". Now there is freedom of speech in the christian world and people have less loyalty or identity to groups, so it is a bit of a circus. But these ideas matter because they are talking about life and death, truth and reality and what matters.
It often takes a long time and a lot of interaction to verbalise the words and finally come out with a summary. It will always be an approximation, but it will represent the group in general.
One area where this can hurt the brain is the trinity, or what constitutes a human. You begin to understand we vary a lot even within a particular belief group. But what you believe has impacts elsewhere.
A for instance, part of the wof/prosperity group believe in command theology, because believers are gods, with creative authority. Had one commanding me once, and saying if I was ill, accepting my illness made me ill.
Now it springs from who Adam is, a god or a mortal human. Jesus is the first born of the brothers, so for some this means they are Jesus, or as one guy said "I am". Now there is freedom of speech in the christian world and people have less loyalty or identity to groups, so it is a bit of a circus. But these ideas matter because they are talking about life and death, truth and reality and what matters.
True...Lord, Lord....have we not done these good works...
Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "..Jesus said He never know them..not then and not ever...these people were not believers.....everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, andknow my sheep, and am known of mine.
Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "..Jesus said He never know them..not then and not ever...these people were not believers.....everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, andknow my sheep, and am known of mine.
I know of no true "grace believer/teacher" that says to go and sin all you want. I have not even once heard it said by anyone yet. It's a common false accusation. All true grace believers are against sin of all kinds..yes..even legalism and self-righteousness as well as the "biggie sins"..
We are "equal opportunity" sin haters.....as all sin destroys people and is not part of the kingdom of our Lord....to me all sin is ignorance of the life of Christ that is in us.
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Excellent word...
Actually if you do a study of Jude 1:4 the Greek word for "turn" ( in KJV ) the grace of God into licentiousness -- the Greek word means "to exchange"..
In Jude 4 he was saying that there are those that "exchange" the grace of God for licentiousness. It doesn't say that the people are using grace to do what they want..it actually says they are exchanging it...or another term is "replacing" grace.
Every other place in the NT where this word was used it means " to take the place of"...it's really interesting to study the use of the word.
These people Jude was warning about were not under grace at all nor where they trying to make it something else. They were "exchanging" it for doing what they want.
Living how they wanted to "take the place of grace" in their lives.
Actually if you do a study of Jude 1:4 the Greek word for "turn" ( in KJV ) the grace of God into licentiousness -- the Greek word means "to exchange"..
In Jude 4 he was saying that there are those that "exchange" the grace of God for licentiousness. It doesn't say that the people are using grace to do what they want..it actually says they are exchanging it...or another term is "replacing" grace.
Every other place in the NT where this word was used it means " to take the place of"...it's really interesting to study the use of the word.
These people Jude was warning about were not under grace at all nor where they trying to make it something else. They were "exchanging" it for doing what they want.
Living how they wanted to "take the place of grace" in their lives.
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