Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[eternally-gratefull]

This idea of self-negation and abandoning one's will derives from the Calvinistic.Augustinian.gnostic concept of total inability. Man cannot do, so GOD must do through him; therefore, man must turn over the steering wheel to GOD. Check out how a reformed website describes it:

Those [things GOD commands us to do] are things we do because of God’s hand on us and because of His enabling power. This is because we can’t carry these things out freely – we’re too corrupt. ​

Luther believed the same and said that man's will did good or bad deeds only as "it was ridden either by God or the devil".

The early church fathers before Augustine, whom both Luther and Calvin derived their theology from (i.e., Augustine), witnessed that man had free will and ability through the holy spirit to do the will of GOD.

can someone please get this guy of his Calvin, Augustin, gnostic rant.

It does absolutely nothing to add to the conversation, there should be a rule against this kind of nonsense.

It would be one thing if i was discussing the word with a calvanist or whatever, it is a far other when the people you are talking to are non of the above.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

oh? i began by the Spirit and will be made perfect by the flesh?
i wonder why the scripture doesn't say He has made us half-perfect or made half of us perfect? odd.

nevertheless, i am grateful and full of praise -- because He is faithful to complete the thing that He started, even when i am unfaithful

Being confident of this very thing,
that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ
(Philippians 1:6)
​

That's mischaracterizing the issue. Your body will be perfected by walking in the spirit.

To your 2nd question, why did Paul say he hadn't been perfected yet?

 

[posthuman]

The word dunamis simply means ability. Calvinists and those who subscribe to total inability like to interpret it as power for obvious reasons.

the word "inability" means "not having power" -- likewise having the "ability" to do something means it is "within your power" to accomplish.

for obvious reasons (you had unkind things to say about "empowering grace") i understand why you don't want to admit that when you said God's grace gives us the ability to live righteously, you'd rather not let on that you're actually confirming that grace is empowering.

i won't belabor the point. i just get a kick out of irony when i see it

 

[FreeNChrist]

I'll just take your word for that.

Sometimes it's just like Leslie Neilsen, who keeps showing up at the cockpit door, "I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you." The only difference is he was, at least, amusing.

I'll take your word for that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's mischaracterizing the issue. Your body will be perfected by walking in the spirit.

To your 2nd question, why did Paul say he hadn't been perfected yet?

Oh, So If I walk int he spirit I will never get sick or die?

 

[FreeNChrist]

the word "inability" means "not having power" -- likewise having the "ability" to do something means it is "within your power" to accomplish.

for obvious reasons (you had unkind things to say about "empowering grace") i understand why you don't want to admit that when you said God's grace gives us the ability to live righteously, you'd rather not let on that you're actually confirming that grace is empowering.

i won't belabor the point. i just get a kick out of irony when i see it

But then it wouldn't be his ability, but Christ's.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

...so in other words if the individual had included, "...and have faith..." -- then it would be a perfectly fine statement?

Why not point this fact out very simply and clearly and benificially, rather than making it look like you're calling the guy a proponent of extreme Free Grace and Gnosticism?! <-- FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY!

Because I know very well that the person is a rabid follower of Free Grace/Hyper Grace teachings.

 

[posthuman]

why did Paul say he hadn't been perfected yet?

why did Christ say "it is finished" when 2,000 years later, here we are, still waiting for His day?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

why did Christ say "it is finished" when 2,000 years later, here we are, still waiting for His day?

The means of perfection was finished.

 

[PeterJens]

So, in other words, you're saying that the OT Law should lead us to believe that all people today still require this 'continual atonement'.
Doesn't this line of thinking completely ignore the gospel of Christ... the New Testament... the New Covanent?
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

It is a good point. Jesus became the final ultimate atoning sacrifice, once for all. The sacrifice brings all those who believe on it to the Father, clean and forgiven.

What Paul is saying is Jesus was the last sacrifice, which made any further sacrifices irrelevant. What I am talking about is though the cross is for all sins, it is appropriated by faith to the believer, at the present time for sins done now and in the past. One reason to show this whole process in action in Israel is to get across the immediacy of the sacrifice. There is no buying in to the camp, or just because you are a child of Israel, you are forgiven and blameless.

Look at the repeated words is scripture saying walk in righteousness, do not sin, follow the commandments, be pure, be blameless, yet still people say I cannot stop sinning, but that is not a problem because I am under grace so forgiven.

Religion, giving people what they want to appease their conscience, but not too much to upset them.

Now if I talk about righteousness, cleansing the heart, walking in purity, taking captive every thought for Christ, why is it these spiritual believers hate it so much? Surely if their hearts were there they would be saying, Amen brother.

By their fruits you will know them.

 

[posthuman]

But then it wouldn't be his ability, but Christ's.

yes!
i think this is how that the gift of His grace is so wonderful even beyond the wonder of His rich mercy

and how that no one can boast, except that they have been blessed to know Him!

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Because I know very well that the person is a rabid follower of Free Grace/Hyper Grace teachings.

Well there you have it folks--HRFTD is judge and jury.

(Her website (blog) included in her signature leads me to believe otherwise, HeRose. C'mon now.)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

the word "inability" means "not having power" -- likewise having the "ability" to do something means it is "within your power" to accomplish.

for obvious reasons (you had unkind things to say about "empowering grace") i understand why you don't want to admit that when you said God's grace gives us the ability to live righteously, you'd rather not let on that you're actually confirming that grace is empowering.

i won't belabor the point. i just get a kick out of irony when i see it

Those who believe in total inability don't believe that they can do, so the only way that they can imagine doing the will of GOD is if something more powerful overcomes their inability by doing it through them.

This is not what the grace of GOD is about. GOD gives us the ability to do his will of our own free will.

 

[posthuman]

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:8

To present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:27

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
1 Thess 3:13

look at Who it is actively doing the work in these passages!

praise God! Christ in us!

 

[ember]

Well there you have it folks--HRFTD is judge and jury.

(Her website (blog) included in her signature leads me to believe otherwise, HeRose. C'mon now.)

that's been going on so long I almost expect Obama to nominate him for that empty seat

by the way, is it her or he? I once asked and I was told 'he'

but who really knows

 

[posthuman]

This is not what the grace of GOD is about. GOD gives us the ability to do his will of our own free will.

it's more than this, because not only has He empowered me to do His will, but He has crucified my old nature with Him, and given me a new nature, whose will it is to do His will -- indeed, something more powerful has overcome me!!

my "free will" is no longer my own -- it died, and was nailed to the cross with Him, and He has freely given me a new will. that is the power of grace, and how that it extends far beyond mercy, which is already immeasurably rich. what is "free" about my will is that it was freely given to me -- it is not "free" to live in wickedness; it is constrained by love to fulfill the works He predestined me for.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

It is a good point. Jesus became the final ultimate atoning sacrifice, once for all. The sacrifice brings all those who believe on it to the Father, clean and forgiven.

What Paul is saying is Jesus was the last sacrifice, which made any further sacrifices irrelevant. What I am talking about is though the cross is for all sins, it is appropriated by faith to the believer, at the present time for sins done now and in the past. One reason to show this whole process in action in Israel is to get across the immediacy of the sacrifice. There is no buying in to the camp, or just because you are a child of Israel, you are forgiven and blameless.

Look at the repeated words is scripture saying walk in righteousness, do not sin, follow the commandments, be pure, be blameless, yet still people say I cannot stop sinning, but that is not a problem because I am under grace so forgiven.

Religion, giving people what they want to appease their conscience, but not too much to upset them.

Now if I talk about righteousness, cleansing the heart, walking in purity, taking captive every thought for Christ, why is it these spiritual believers hate it so much? Surely if their hearts were there they would be saying, Amen brother.

By their fruits you will know them.

When I see posts, like these, PeterJ, it makes me believe you and EG are preaching the same gospel...

...through two, very different, lenses.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

that's been going on so long I almost expect Obama to nominate him for that empty seat

by the way, is it her or he? I once asked and I was told 'he'

but who really knows

I'm assuming "HeRose..." is male and the 'poster in question' is female.


Btw ..... glad to see/know we're on "talking terms" again!

 

[JGIG]

"Grace Believers" run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed.

Not a single "grace believer" refuted doing this because, well, that's what they do. Funny thing is this is a verbatim quote by Irenaeus describing how the gnostics treated the Christians. I just replaced gnostics with "Grace Believers".

I enjoy interacting with you folks. You have taught me so much.

Perhaps no one refuted it because none of what you wrote truly applies to us .

As a rule, we don't 'run down' anyone. To the contrary, our goal is to build our fellow believers up in who they are in Christ and what that means.

You're taking shots at imaginary people of your own creation, HRFTD.

-JGIG

 

[posthuman]

the salvation of God isn't merely a "second chance" for us to try to justify ourselves by our own effort.

it is a second life -- a second nature -- a second birth becoming a second creation !