Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
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In a general sense I believe people have free will to choose to sin or not. I hold love and its hurt and pain in the soul of man without communion with God, leads people to sin. I am not saying we are glorified, but I hold we can walk pleasingly before the Lord in Christ.
Works - For me these works are meeting needs in the world that we come across, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, going to hospitals to comfort the sick, helping orphans and the widowed, visiting prisoners.
Now I agree my conclusions come partly from theology, but more from life experience and realising how much scripture supports these simple conclusions. What I found encouraging is how historically and across the christian world many others have come to the same conclusions and founded ministries on them. Wesley and Finney are two examples of similar thinking.
Works - For me these works are meeting needs in the world that we come across, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, going to hospitals to comfort the sick, helping orphans and the widowed, visiting prisoners.
Now I agree my conclusions come partly from theology, but more from life experience and realising how much scripture supports these simple conclusions. What I found encouraging is how historically and across the christian world many others have come to the same conclusions and founded ministries on them. Wesley and Finney are two examples of similar thinking.
E
Again, Is there anything we can do about this? This is for the birds. This man has no desire to discuss the bible. he wants to discuss things outside the word of God. and put people into groups.
He has no desire to listen to what ANYONE says, and all he knows how to do is attack them, falsely accuse them, and back them into the corner of being grouped with people they do not have anything in common with.
He has no desire to listen to what ANYONE says, and all he knows how to do is attack them, falsely accuse them, and back them into the corner of being grouped with people they do not have anything in common with.
Original sin and its definition is not a biblical concept, it is a theological concept.
It is a valid question to ask what did the early church fathers believed.
In our present day certain ideas we get through the church. It is therefore worthwhile asking has the church been persuaded by theologians to accept certain positions.
Now if you believe no one could question this idea, then you are displaying bias and commiting slander which unfortunately is again obvious.
Wesley knew of this problem and believed in free will to choose sin or righteousness in Christ.
It is a valid question to ask what did the early church fathers believed.
In our present day certain ideas we get through the church. It is therefore worthwhile asking has the church been persuaded by theologians to accept certain positions.
Now if you believe no one could question this idea, then you are displaying bias and commiting slander which unfortunately is again obvious.
Wesley knew of this problem and believed in free will to choose sin or righteousness in Christ.
We must stop calling HeRose a brother in Christ - he is not. He preaches a different gospel, and is accursed. (Galatians 1:8) His works-for-salvation heresy has been soundly refuted by scripture, yet he absolutely refuses to accept correction.
As long as he holds to salvation through works, he simply cannot be saved.
" And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)
It can't get any simpler than that. To add works to salvation takes away all grace. And without God's grace, one cannot be saved.
The Bible speaks directly to people like HeRose when it says:
" You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Christ, you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4)
HeRose is separated from the grace because he refuses to accept salvation as a free gift from God that cannot be obtained, or kept, by personal works.
God calls such works for salvation "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) because they are nothing but an attempt to bribe the judge of all the universe.
Without grace (God's unmerited favor) one cannot be saved. Adding works nullifies God's grace because salvation has been turned into something you deserve.
"Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited as due to grace, but as that which is owed to him." (Romans 4:4)
You cannot mix what is merited with what is unmerited. It's a complete contradiction.
It can't get any clearer than this: " But to him that works not, but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)
HeRose teaches we remain righteous by working for it, but the Bible teaches we are made righteous by belief (faith) alone - with no works in sight.
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the Law." (Romans 3:28)
HeRose loves to label us as "gnostics" because we simply believe what the Bible teaches. That we do good works as a result of salvation to bear fruit as a believer, to grow, and to please the Lord, but not to keep us saved. The faith of one who does not bear fruit may be "dead" but he is not lost. He will be chastened by the Lord, and perhaps taken home before his time, so as to not be a stumbling block to other believers and to those seeking Jesus, and will lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but he himself will be saved.
"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer lose, but he himself will be saved, as if through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If one cannot be saved by works, they cannot be kept saved by works. If salvation is a gift initially, a gift it will always remain. To pay for it in any way by what we do, or how we live, is to nullify it as a gift forever.
After salvation, God does not take our sins back into account - ever. (Romans 4:6-8)
They shall be remembered no more. (Hebrews 8:12, 10:17)
Our sin has been completely done away with. (Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 26)
If one is not saved forever, they were never saved at all.
As long as he holds to salvation through works, he simply cannot be saved.
" And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)
It can't get any simpler than that. To add works to salvation takes away all grace. And without God's grace, one cannot be saved.
The Bible speaks directly to people like HeRose when it says:
" You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Christ, you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4)
HeRose is separated from the grace because he refuses to accept salvation as a free gift from God that cannot be obtained, or kept, by personal works.
God calls such works for salvation "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) because they are nothing but an attempt to bribe the judge of all the universe.
Without grace (God's unmerited favor) one cannot be saved. Adding works nullifies God's grace because salvation has been turned into something you deserve.
"Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited as due to grace, but as that which is owed to him." (Romans 4:4)
You cannot mix what is merited with what is unmerited. It's a complete contradiction.
It can't get any clearer than this: " But to him that works not, but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)
HeRose teaches we remain righteous by working for it, but the Bible teaches we are made righteous by belief (faith) alone - with no works in sight.
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the Law." (Romans 3:28)
HeRose loves to label us as "gnostics" because we simply believe what the Bible teaches. That we do good works as a result of salvation to bear fruit as a believer, to grow, and to please the Lord, but not to keep us saved. The faith of one who does not bear fruit may be "dead" but he is not lost. He will be chastened by the Lord, and perhaps taken home before his time, so as to not be a stumbling block to other believers and to those seeking Jesus, and will lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but he himself will be saved.
"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer lose, but he himself will be saved, as if through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If one cannot be saved by works, they cannot be kept saved by works. If salvation is a gift initially, a gift it will always remain. To pay for it in any way by what we do, or how we live, is to nullify it as a gift forever.
After salvation, God does not take our sins back into account - ever. (Romans 4:6-8)
They shall be remembered no more. (Hebrews 8:12, 10:17)
Our sin has been completely done away with. (Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 26)
If one is not saved forever, they were never saved at all.
G
He claims that we MUST do works/have fruit/walk like Jesus/maintain faith in order to be saved. If we don't we will lose salvation.
Does a believer HAVE to produce works/fruit to be saved? It is not just faith alone in Christ alone for salvation?
And I disagree with your statement, " And faith in the one who is trustworthy will never fail."
The one who is trustworthy(Jesus Christ) will never fail, our measly little personal faith fails day in and day out.
Does a believer HAVE to produce works/fruit to be saved? It is not just faith alone in Christ alone for salvation?
And I disagree with your statement, " And faith in the one who is trustworthy will never fail."
The one who is trustworthy(Jesus Christ) will never fail, our measly little personal faith fails day in and day out.
Grace...I have 4 pages to catch up on,
but I wanted to reply to this as I saw it.
My point about the ignore button,
is it would only keep you, yourself,
from seeing that persons post,
while everyone else is still interacting,
only with one less person (you) to help defend the truth.
It doesn't censor or block the offender from posting,
whether it's bold lies or just simple errors.
Using the ignore only keeps you from seeing,
and if a weaker person is being exposed to falsehoods,
you wouldn't know it, or be able to help them
learn the truth.
I just think it would be better to keep the line open, ...
you can skim and skip in places on your own,
rather than having yourself censored from
being able to see and help.
I'd like to discuss some of the scriptures/contexts
with you sometime down the line, if the Lord allows,
there just never seems to be time for ANYthing these days,
but I'm sure it would be edifying for us both,
and what a great way to worship and bring
glory to our Saviour together while
sharpening iron at the same time.
Oh well, in His time and grace.
God bless you, brother. Nu2.
but I wanted to reply to this as I saw it.
My point about the ignore button,
is it would only keep you, yourself,
from seeing that persons post,
while everyone else is still interacting,
only with one less person (you) to help defend the truth.
It doesn't censor or block the offender from posting,
whether it's bold lies or just simple errors.
Using the ignore only keeps you from seeing,
and if a weaker person is being exposed to falsehoods,
you wouldn't know it, or be able to help them
learn the truth.
I just think it would be better to keep the line open, ...
you can skim and skip in places on your own,
rather than having yourself censored from
being able to see and help.
I'd like to discuss some of the scriptures/contexts
with you sometime down the line, if the Lord allows,
there just never seems to be time for ANYthing these days,
but I'm sure it would be edifying for us both,
and what a great way to worship and bring
glory to our Saviour together while
sharpening iron at the same time.
Oh well, in His time and grace.
God bless you, brother. Nu2.
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