Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe it and it is truth. the moment we place our trust in Christs finished work we are SAVED. We can't get out of it, we are bought with a price and we are no longer our own.

Honestly EG, I can't believe you fight with Herose after I saw your interpretation of James.

You basically said exactly what Herose and the other workers for salvation are saying.

If works MUST follow,and we have to constantly stay in the faith...............it is not grace, nor a gift.

Oh really?

So can you tell me when I ever said one can have faith, and works, and still lose salvation?

Faith produces works, And faith in the one who is trustworthy will never fail.. I have continual said this, that is not what HeRose claims.

I look forward to your answer..

 

[PeterJens]

Just to recap on what PeterJ actually believes...
There a couple of things to note. The first is that in denying original sin he aligns himself with what the church has always declared heretical. This is part of the reason he comes to the conclusions he doe's through his Pelagian glasses. HeRose does the same thing.

Secondly, He equates walking in righteousness as being already perfected now (glorified). And thats how he can say what he says about the belivers walk.

I would agree that 'hyper/exagerated grace types are in error...but you all know that already lol. I would also agree that in Christ we are victors, and righteouss. but that not of ourselves, only in the completed work of Jesus.

Some major points we need to think about.

When we talk about 'works' what actually do we mean (Now I am refering to the christian here not the unregenerate)?

When Paul refers to 'works of the Law' what works is he refering to? This is a very important question especialy in light of the NP on Pauline theology over the last 30 or so years.

I think we will soon realise that alot of the arguments here are mute when we can honestly answer the above questions.... remember the 2 questions above are not refering to non christians and how one is saved, but directly to christians as Paul wrote.

In a general sense I believe people have free will to choose to sin or not. I hold love and its hurt and pain in the soul of man without communion with God, leads people to sin. I am not saying we are glorified, but I hold we can walk pleasingly before the Lord in Christ.

Works - For me these works are meeting needs in the world that we come across, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, going to hospitals to comfort the sick, helping orphans and the widowed, visiting prisoners.

Now I agree my conclusions come partly from theology, but more from life experience and realising how much scripture supports these simple conclusions. What I found encouraging is how historically and across the christian world many others have come to the same conclusions and founded ministries on them. Wesley and Finney are two examples of similar thinking.

 

[PeterJens]

They are taught to focus on self, where the Good News is that we are to focus on Christ - He is the Perfector of our faith \o/!
-JGIG

This simple phrase "focus on Christ" what do you actually mean? If I was a young disciple how would you instruct me to do this?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is not 'ongoing faith' by which we are saved. It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved. That IS a one time event! At that point we are made a New Creation, Born into the family of God in Christ, and then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our redemption for the Glory of the Father. This cannot be undone through lapses of faith, and when a believer is properly fed and watered in the Word, their faith won't lapse!

Pure Christian gnosticism. The gnostics thought that they were saved by their spiritual nature, and conduct was irrelevant. No different in essence than what you believe.

The grace of GOD is that we are saved by who we are in (Christ) and remain through faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Just to recap on what PeterJ actually believes...



There a couple of things to note. The first is that in denying original sin he aligns himself with what the church has always declared heretical. This is part of the reason he comes to the conclusions he doe's through his Pelagian glasses. HeRose does the same thing.

This is not true. The Augustinian concept of original sin didn't exist as church doctrine before Augustine. If it did, prove it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pure Christian gnosticism. The gnostics .

Again, Is there anything we can do about this? This is for the birds. This man has no desire to discuss the bible. he wants to discuss things outside the word of God. and put people into groups.

He has no desire to listen to what ANYONE says, and all he knows how to do is attack them, falsely accuse them, and back them into the corner of being grouped with people they do not have anything in common with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not true. The Augustinian concept of original sin didn't exist as church doctrine before Augustine. If it did, prove it.

Again, Please. this is just nuts!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No, HRFTD, that is not true. Properly defining Biblical terms and concepts is not REdefining or twisting Biblical terms and concepts.

You rarely just make your case and let the reader decide; you find it necessary to slander (labeling them as gnostics/mystics) the believers here who are simply teaching the Good News of Christ, His Work, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him.

-JGIG

The "Grace Believer" concepts and definitions didn't exist until Joseph Prince in the '90s. So suddenly this Word of Faith guy appears and suddenly sets everything straight?

Yeah... uh huh...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sadly, there are many walking wounded believers out there who have believed what some preach here: That they must do certain things to maintain their salvation or they will be eternally condemned. And ironically, it is the putting of that yoke on young/immature believers that stunts their growth and hinders the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives. They are taught to focus on self, where the Good News is that we are to focus on Christ - He is the Perfector of our faith \o/!

-JGIG

This is not what "Grace Believers" teach. They teach to focus on one's identity of who they are in Christ. They give lip service to focusing on Christ, but that's all it is because focusing on self precludes focusing on Christ. It's confusion.

 

[PeterJens]

Original sin and its definition is not a biblical concept, it is a theological concept.

It is a valid question to ask what did the early church fathers believed.
In our present day certain ideas we get through the church. It is therefore worthwhile asking has the church been persuaded by theologians to accept certain positions.

Now if you believe no one could question this idea, then you are displaying bias and commiting slander which unfortunately is again obvious.

Wesley knew of this problem and believed in free will to choose sin or righteousness in Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The "Grace Believer" concepts and definitions didn't exist until Joseph Prince in the '90s. So suddenly this Word of Faith guy appears and suddenly sets everything straight?

Yeah... uh huh...

Yep, it's nuts alright. He just keeps repeating the same lies over and over as if they haven't been thoroughly refuted over and over again.

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is not what "Grace Believers" teach. They teach to focus on one's identity of who they are in Christ. They give lip service to focusing on Christ, but that's all it is because focusing on self precludes focusing on Christ. It's confusion.

Sigh*. What a convoluted mess. All in a deliberate attempt to deceive the uninformed about what others believe. Pathetic.

 

[Budman]

We must stop calling HeRose a brother in Christ - he is not. He preaches a different gospel, and is accursed. (Galatians 1:8) His works-for-salvation heresy has been soundly refuted by scripture, yet he absolutely refuses to accept correction.

As long as he holds to salvation through works, he simply cannot be saved.

" And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

It can't get any simpler than that. To add works to salvation takes away all grace. And without God's grace, one cannot be saved.

The Bible speaks directly to people like HeRose when it says:

" You who are trying to be justified by the Law have been alienated from Christ, you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

HeRose is separated from the grace because he refuses to accept salvation as a free gift from God that cannot be obtained, or kept, by personal works.

God calls such works for salvation "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6) because they are nothing but an attempt to bribe the judge of all the universe.

Without grace (God's unmerited favor) one cannot be saved. Adding works nullifies God's grace because salvation has been turned into something you deserve.

"Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited as due to grace, but as that which is owed to him." (Romans 4:4)

You cannot mix what is merited with what is unmerited. It's a complete contradiction.

It can't get any clearer than this: " But to him that works not, but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

HeRose teaches we remain righteous by working for it, but the Bible teaches we are made righteous by belief (faith) alone - with no works in sight.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the Law." (Romans 3:28)

HeRose loves to label us as "gnostics" because we simply believe what the Bible teaches. That we do good works as a result of salvation to bear fruit as a believer, to grow, and to please the Lord, but not to keep us saved. The faith of one who does not bear fruit may be "dead" but he is not lost. He will be chastened by the Lord, and perhaps taken home before his time, so as to not be a stumbling block to other believers and to those seeking Jesus, and will lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but he himself will be saved.

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer lose, but he himself will be saved, as if through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If one cannot be saved by works, they cannot be kept saved by works. If salvation is a gift initially, a gift it will always remain. To pay for it in any way by what we do, or how we live, is to nullify it as a gift forever.

After salvation, God does not take our sins back into account - ever. (Romans 4:6-8)

They shall be remembered no more. (Hebrews 8:12, 10:17)

Our sin has been completely done away with. (Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 26)

If one is not saved forever, they were never saved at all.

 

[Gr8grace]

Oh really?

So can you tell me when I ever said one can have faith, and works, and still lose salvation?

Faith produces works, And faith in the one who is trustworthy will never fail.. I have continual said this, that is not what HeRose claims.

I look forward to your answer..

He claims that we MUST do works/have fruit/walk like Jesus/maintain faith in order to be saved. If we don't we will lose salvation.

Does a believer HAVE to produce works/fruit to be saved? It is not just faith alone in Christ alone for salvation?

And I disagree with your statement, " And faith in the one who is trustworthy will never fail."

The one who is trustworthy(Jesus Christ) will never fail, our measly little personal faith fails day in and day out.

 

[nu2see]

The scriptures are right in line with the what is happening here. We are defending the faith of the gospel of Christ and those that believe will not compromise on that issue no matter who they are. Paul didn't compromise either. This is a very serious issue here.


I understand your emotional sentiment but it is not applicable here in these cases. This will have to be one of those times were people can agree to disagree. The purpose of the ignore button has the wisdom of God on it. It's regrettable that it needs to be done but that is a part of guarding your heart from evil behavior not matter how much we want to make everyone be in unity - some will not play by Christian ethics....those need to be dealt with and seeing that there is no eldership in CC ( as it is not a church ) - we need to protect ourselves.

I look forward to the day that the ignore button is not needed... I know you have a good heart....but as I say we just have to agree to disagree....Bless you!.

Grace...I have 4 pages to catch up on,
but I wanted to reply to this as I saw it.

My point about the ignore button,
is it would only keep you, yourself,
from seeing that persons post,
while everyone else is still interacting,
only with one less person (you) to help defend the truth.

It doesn't censor or block the offender from posting,
whether it's bold lies or just simple errors.

Using the ignore only keeps you from seeing,
and if a weaker person is being exposed to falsehoods,
you wouldn't know it, or be able to help them
learn the truth.

I just think it would be better to keep the line open, ...
you can skim and skip in places on your own,
rather than having yourself censored from
being able to see and help.

I'd like to discuss some of the scriptures/contexts
with you sometime down the line, if the Lord allows,
there just never seems to be time for ANYthing these days,
but I'm sure it would be edifying for us both,
and what a great way to worship and bring
glory to our Saviour together while
sharpening iron at the same time.

Oh well, in His time and grace.
God bless you, brother. Nu2.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He claims that we MUST do works/have fruit/walk like Jesus/maintain faith in order to be saved. If we don't we will lose salvation.

That's basically correct, but I don't believe that we must do works. It's all about being led by the spirit and doing what it says. If it says to do something and we don't, well that would/could be a problem. But we most definitely MUST strive to refrain from doing sin.

 

[Budman]

I don't believe that we must do works.

No works. Got it.

But we most definitely MUST strive to refrain from doing sin.

Works. Got it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now I agree my conclusions come partly from theology, but more from life experience and realising how much scripture supports these simple conclusions. What I found encouraging is how historically and across the christian world many others have come to the same conclusions and founded ministries on them. Wesley and Finney are two examples of similar thinking.

Not so sure about that. Finney was essentially an unbeliever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "Grace Believer" concepts and definitions didn't exist until Joseph Prince in the '90s. So suddenly this Word of Faith guy appears and suddenly sets everything straight?

Yeah... uh huh...

Again?, This is getting rediculous

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not what "Grace Believers" teach. They teach to focus on one's identity of who they are in Christ. They give lip service to focusing on Christ, but that's all it is because focusing on self precludes focusing on Christ. It's confusion.

Again? I am going to keep calling this stuff out.. And PRAY something is done.