Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

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eternally-gratefull

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He claims that we MUST do works/have fruit/walk like Jesus/maintain faith in order to be saved. If we don't we will lose salvation.
Thank you. I do not preach this..

Does a believer HAVE to produce works/fruit to be saved? It is not just faith alone in Christ alone for salvation?

No, then we would not be saved by faith but works.

And I disagree with your statement, " And faith in the one who is trustworthy will never fail."
Thats ok. We can disagree, I stand by my statement, A child does not lose faith in a parent who never lets them down. They be turn disobedient in a particular area, , but they will never lose faith.

The one who is trustworthy(Jesus Christ) will never fail, our measly little personal faith fails day in and day out.
Failing does not mean stop.

As the man said, I believe jesus, Help me in my unbelief. Jesus still healed his child.


Even if we are faithful, he remains faithful he can not deny himself.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
That's basically correct, but I don't believe that we must do works. It's all about being led by the spirit and doing what it says. If it says to do something and we don't, well that would/could be a problem. But we most definitely MUST strive to refrain from doing sin.
This Holy Spirit that is an "it" figures prominently in HR's unique belief system.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
Thank you. I do not preach this..



No, then we would not be saved by faith but works.


Thats ok. We can disagree, I stand by my statement, A child does not lose faith in a parent who never lets them down. They be turn disobedient in a particular area, , but they will never lose faith.



Failing does not mean stop.

As the man said, I believe jesus, Help me in my unbelief. Jesus still healed his child.


Even if we are faithful, he remains faithful he can not deny himself.
Ok. Then maybe I misunderstood you.

What is your take on this verse again?

James 2:14~~New American Standard Bible
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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HeRose says:
I don't believe that we must do works.
But he has said:
You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.
First he says one must do the work of abstaining from sin in order to be saved, then he turns around and says that he doesn't believe we have to work.

He's the perfect Biblical definition of a double-minded man.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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[video=youtube;yEhzT1nktyU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEhzT1nktyU[/video]

Easy Believism vs Lordship Salvation
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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It is not 'ongoing faith' by which we are saved. It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved. That IS a one time event! At that point we are made a New Creation, Born into the family of God in Christ, and then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our redemption for the Glory of the Father. This cannot be undone through lapses of faith, and when a believer is properly fed and watered in the Word, their faith won't lapse!

Sadly, there are many walking wounded believers out there who have believed what some preach here: That they must do certain things to maintain their salvation or they will be eternally condemned. And ironically, it is the putting of that yoke on young/immature believers that stunts their growth and hinders the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives. They are taught to focus on self, where the Good News is that we are to focus on Christ - He is the Perfector of our faith \o/!

-JGIG
This simple phrase "focus on Christ" what do you actually mean? If I was a young disciple how would you instruct me to do this?

It's not a matter of instruction as much as it is a matter of encouraging and building up the believer in Christ - encouraging an immature believer that when they stumble, it has not put their salvation in jeopardy, and that if they're sinning, they should stop - sinning is dumb and destructive to them and to those around them.

They also need to recognize their position in Christ as a forgiven, righteous, New Creation.

Fixing their eyes on Christ, they need get up, brush themselves off, and approach the Throne of Grace with confidence for help in their time of need.


9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (From Col. 1)


6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)


7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. (from Eph. 1)


14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)


Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. (from Heb. 12)

I wrote this back in 2013 in the article, Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live?

For those of us who aren’t dealing with the big, obvious sins (other than spiritual pride, arrogance, and judgementalism, that is), we need to be actively aware of the struggling believer’s secure position in Christ in the midst of their condition in the flesh. That active awareness should translate into gently lifting up those who struggle with their condition in the flesh, establishing them in the reality of their position in Christ, reminding them of the Throne of Grace that they/we can approach in Christ in their/our time of need. That’s talking about help when it comes to sinning, folks, and the Throne spoken of is not a throne of judgement (from the Law), but the Throne of Grace!


Apparently, the Thessalonians were really good at this:


11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

12 Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you.

13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.


16 Be joyful always; 17 pray continually; 18 give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.


19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.


23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. (from 1 Thess. 5)



-JGIG




 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
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It is not 'ongoing faith' by which we are saved. It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved. That IS a one time event! At that point we are made a New Creation, Born into the family of God in Christ, and then sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our redemption for the Glory of the Father. This cannot be undone through lapses of faith, and when a believer is properly fed and watered in the Word, their faith won't lapse!

Sadly, there are many walking wounded believers out there who have believed what some preach here: That they must do certain things to maintain their salvation or they will be eternally condemned. And ironically, it is the putting of that yoke on young/immature believers that stunts their growth and hinders the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives. They are taught to focus on self, where the Good News is that we are to focus on Christ - He is the Perfector of our faith \o/!

-JGIG
Pure Christian gnosticism. The gnostics thought that they were saved by their spiritual nature, and conduct was irrelevant. No different in essence than what you believe.

The grace of GOD is that we are saved by who we are in (Christ) and remain through faith.
Did you even read the post? I clearly state this:

It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved.


Sheesh.

Perhaps I should be reporting these slanderous posts where you are calling me a Gnostic every time I post something you disagree with.


-JGIG
 
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Gr8grace

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[video=youtube;yEhzT1nktyU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEhzT1nktyU[/video]

Easy Believism vs Lordship Salvation
Budman,Budman, Budman? Why the heck are you posting truth on this forum?

He could be my teacher and would if I lived near him.

He is SPOT on and what a blessing it was to hear and see another believer that KNOWS truth.

It is AMAZING that this simple truth and amazing gift is so rejected.

Thanks Brother.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Did you even read the post? I clearly state this:
It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved.
Sheesh.
Perhaps I should be reporting these slanderous posts where you are calling me a Gnostic every time I post something you disagree with.
-JGIG
If you are like other "Grace Believers", then your statement - It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved - means a one time faith is sufficient, and enduring to the end in faith is not required.

So if if you believe that we must endure in faith to the end in order to be saved, then I will gladly retract my comment.

But if otherwise, why are bothering me?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Budman,Budman, Budman? Why the heck are you posting truth on this forum?
He could be my teacher and would if I lived near him.
He is SPOT on and what a blessing it was to hear and see another believer that KNOWS truth.
It is AMAZING that this simple truth and amazing gift is so rejected.
Thanks Brother.
The guy's a fool. Separating salvation from service. The voice says to do the will of GOD. And what did Jesus say?

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
 
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roaringkitten

Guest
In response to Gr8grace's post #394

That's basically correct, but I don't believe that we must do works. It's all about being led by the spirit and doing what it says. If it says to do something and we don't, well that would/could be a problem. But we most definitely MUST strive to refrain from doing sin.
But in another thread hrftd said:

You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.
 
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roaringkitten

Guest
The guy's a fool. Separating salvation from service. The voice says to do the will of GOD. And what did Jesus say?
​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
Pretty harsh thing to say, you might want to repent.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matt 5:22
 
Feb 22, 2016
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Nice, JGIG!
And Budman,
I try, but the vids that ppl post just take so long,
and I miss 100 posts in the meantime.

I have heard the debates, presentations, etc.,
on Lordship, easyism, OSAS, works.....
it seems like it has and will go on and on.

One thing I don't hear expressed too often when ppl use
John10 on video like that guy, (I don't know who he is),
is the point about 'and they follow me'.

Some use it as if it says, 'and they BETTER follow me',
but some use it as if it says 'and they SOMEtimes follow me'.

But Jesus says'My sheep hear my voice,
and I know them, and they follow me...'

It's Jesus who is identifying His own.
The sheep are not identified by their behavior,
they're identified by their Shepherd.

Jesus' sheep are not going to hear the voice
of a different shepherd, because they don't belong
to any other, they belong to Jesus.

When He calls His sheep to pasture, they hear
His voice and come out to pasture,
when He calls them in to rest, they hear His voice
and come in to rest.

If another calls them, they won't come, because
they don't 'hear' (recognize) that voice.

The emphasis is not so much on the sheep,
as it is on the voice of the Good Shepherd,
and is one of the most wonderful passages
to rejoice in the assurance of eternal security,
as well as proclaim the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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It's not a matter of instruction as much as it is a matter of encouraging and building up the believer in Christ - encouraging an immature believer that when they stumble, it has not put their salvation in jeopardy, and that if they're sinning, they should stop - sinning is dumb and destructive to them and to those around them.
Your answer is great except it is not looking at Christ it is about dealing with sin.

My answer would be to take someone through Jesus's attitude to others. Looking at the people Jesus met and their attitude to Him. Looking at the sermon on the mount and which things He praised and what he critised or warned against.

This for me is looking at Christ. Another aspect that helped me, was reading studies on the issues Jesus went through in the last week of His life before the cross. Again this is looking at Christ.

What also helped me is comparing this to my own attitudes to people. The gulf demonstrated how different we were, which was extremely humbling and demonstrated to me how much I still had to learn.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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The guy's a fool. Separating salvation from service. The voice says to do the will of GOD. And what did Jesus say?
​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
And what is His will, HeRose?

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)

That's it and that's all.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
Budman,Budman, Budman? Why the heck are you posting truth on this forum?

He could be my teacher and would if I lived near him.

He is SPOT on and what a blessing it was to hear and see another believer that KNOWS truth.

It is AMAZING that this simple truth and amazing gift is so rejected.

Thanks Brother.
Pastor Ralph "Yankee" Arnold's YouTube videos are an absolute blessing....
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
The guy's a fool. Separating salvation from service. The voice says to do the will of GOD. And what did Jesus say?
​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21
Yes I agree. To human wisdom( And I would say that you are very well above me) and religion, he is a fool.

But He has the message that saves souls. Foolishness to the wise in this world.

The Fathers will...

John 6:40~~New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
 
Nov 22, 2015
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The true Christian life is not "US" trying to live "for" Jesus but it is Jesus Himself living "in and through us". Failure to understand this simple truth is at the root of all legalism and the self-performance mentality. ( works-based salvationists )

The law focuses on the "outer man" external behavior and tells it what it must do. ( this is all based on "our" performance )

Grace focuses on the inner man created in righteousness and holiness in Christ Jesus. Grace says what is already done to us because we are one with Christ - it is all His life in and through us that transforms us.

Right believing in the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ produces right living which will reflect in the "outer man's" external behavior.

This is the "fruit of righteousness". But it is His fruit bearing in us as we are the branches.

We produce no fruit of our own - this is humanism. We just "Christianize" it by using the words...Jesus, God, Word, Spirit..etc to try to make it look Christ-like.


Remember the enemy comes with words of righteousness but it is self-righteousness and not dependent on Christ's righteousness. Religion/humanism is a very subtle deception.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NASB)

[SUP]14 [/SUP] No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds. ( notice it is "their" deeds )

 
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Sep 4, 2012
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Pretty harsh thing to say, you might want to repent.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matt 5:22
You sound like you need to read the bible more.

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. Matthew 7:26

For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought. Isaiah 29:20-21
 
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