Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

The guy's a fool. Separating salvation from service. The voice says to do the will of GOD. And what did Jesus say?

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

This man is not a fool. He may have separated two concepts which are more closely linked than others might agree with.
We are told by Christ not to call a brother a fool. You may be annoyed but to call a believer a fool is passing judgement on their spiritual experience. It also can mean you are getting too carried away with your own discoveries and interests, which may need more measured thought. It would be sad to see you discover some new concepts and then loose it through over enthusiasm.

I have met people like this before. I know how hard it is in this arenna of slander and accusations.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This man is not a fool. He may have separated two concepts which are more closely linked than others might agree with.
We are told by Christ not to call a brother a fool. You may be annoyed but to call a believer a fool is passing judgement on their spiritual experience. It also can mean you are getting too carried away with your own discoveries and interests, which may need more measured thought. It would be sad to see you discover some new concepts and then loose it through over enthusiasm.

I have met people like this before. I know how hard it is in this arenna of slander and accusations.

That's what the spirit told me about the man. He's basically teaching that by ignoring the voice of GOD a person will still be rewarded with salvation. Don't think so. Fool.

Fool, foolish... I don't get hung up on words. Notice the words of Jesus and Paul:

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. Matthew 7:26

[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 1 Corinthians 15:36

But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? Luke 12:20​

So don't be like the ungodly who get hung up on words and make a man an offender for a word.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24​

 

[Grace777x70]

Pastor Ralph "Yankee" Arnold's YouTube videos are an absolute blessing....

BUT Budman...you should know that if Ralph "Yankee" video conflicts with some people's religious beliefs...he automatically becomes a gnostic...satanic...a lover of sinning...a "grace" believer that is basically evil not wanting to do the will of God....etc......it's the nature of the beast we have to deal with... ( it is really ungodly behavior )

 

[JGIG]

If you are like other "Grace Believers", then your statement - It is by receiving/believing/putting our faith in the Work of Christ by which we are saved - means a one time faith is sufficient, and enduring to the end in faith is not required.

So if if you believe that we must endure in faith to the end in order to be saved, then I will gladly retract my comment.

But if otherwise, why are bothering me?

Salvation is neither acquired nor maintained by behavior but by new birth in and through Christ:

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Salvation is neither acquired nor maintained by behavior but by new birth in and through Christ:

Which is what I knew you believed (because all "Grace Believers" believe that), thus my confidence and boldness. And I repeat: the gnostics believed that they were saved by their spiritual nature (new birth) and that their behavior was irrelevant to salvation.

2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.​

 

[JGIG]

That's what the spirit told me about the man. He's basically teaching that by ignoring the voice of GOD a person will still be rewarded with salvation. Don't think so. Fool.

Fool, foolish... I don't get hung up on words. Notice the words of Jesus and Paul:

And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. Matthew 7:26

[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 1 Corinthians 15:36

But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? Luke 12:20​

So don't be like the ungodly who get hung up on words and make a man an offender for a word.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24​

I find it so interesting you left this passage out of your above post:

​

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23[/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I find it so interesting you left this passage out of your above post:

​

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG

Thank you. I wanted to include that one, but I searched for "thou fool" so it didn't show up. You and me, we're like a body working together!

 

[JGIG]

Salvation is neither acquired nor maintained by behavior but by new birth in and through Christ:

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

-JGIG

Originally Posted by JGIG
Salvation is neither acquired nor maintained by behavior but by new birth in and through Christ:

Which is what I knew you believed (because all "Grace Believers" believe that), thus my confidence and boldness. And I repeat: the gnostics believed that they were saved by their spiritual nature (new birth) and that their behavior was irrelevant to salvation.

2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.​

Curious that you left out the Scripture references in my above post.

"Lose their spiritual substance?" What does that even mean?

How many times were you physically born?

Once.

How many times can someone be spiritually born?

Once.

You are either spiritually dead in Adam or spiritually alive in Christ.

On this point, the Scriptures are clear:

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (from 1 Cor. 15)​

One does not drift back and forth between the two states for any reason or by any means.

Does behavior matter? For the umpteenth time, yes behavior matters! Sinning is dumb and destructive. If you're sinning, stop! It will make you miserable (because you are acting contrary to your re-born spirit) and does nothing to further the Kingdom. When the believer sins, there is conflict within because we ARE New Creations in Christ.

Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Thank you. I wanted to include that one, but I searched for "thou fool" so it didn't show up. You and me, we're like a body working together!

Perhaps you should spend some more time in Galatians . . . that passage's location popped right into my head .

-JGIG

 

[roaringkitten]

Which is what I knew you believed (because all "Grace Believers" believe that), thus my confidence and boldness. And I repeat: the gnostics believed that they were saved by their spiritual nature (new birth) and that their behavior was irrelevant to salvation.

2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.​

You know nothing about what I believe obviously because you keep bearing false witness against us grace believers. I don't appreciate you slandering my brethren here on CC!​

 

[Grace777x70]

Baby Christians slander and are malicious....if we keep giving the word of Christ out...perhaps they will grow up in the Lord - if their hearts are open for repentance. Let's pray that they do! Our Lord will be faithful to them! Let's leave them in His hands and trust Him and to the word of His grace...


1 Peter 2:1-3 (NASB)

[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Curious that you left out the Scripture references in my above post.

"Lose their spiritual substance?" What does that even mean?

I left out those verses to compact the post. They didn't seem necessary for my response.

"Lose their spiritual substance" means that the gnostics believed once their spirit being was awakened it would never perish, no matter what manner of conduct they engaged in. Essentially identical to the "Grace Believer" and OSAS belief that once a person is born in the spirit, it can never be lost no matter what sort of behavior they engage in. Shows you how much gnostic thought has infiltrated the church.

 

[roaringkitten]

Our sins were washed in His blood(Rev 1:5), and the blood also purged our conscience to serve the living God once we were saved:

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:14

You are either totally trusting on the finished work of Christ for salvation, or trusting in self. By grace are we saved through faith, it is the gift of God. Eph 2:10 takes this truth and states we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, this is our reasonable service(Rom 12:1)! "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid, how shall we, that are dead. to sin, live any longer therein?" Rom 6:1-2

 

[posthuman]

He lived with the apostles for 3 years and called them clean, so it is not impossible unless you want to make it so.

He did not call them clean because of what they did or did not do, or how they lived, or even how great or small or unfailing or weak their faith was.

He said to them:

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
(John 15:3) ​

 

[ladylynn]

Just finished reading a bunch of these posts and was so encouraged. We are supposed to keep hearing and hearing and hearing the Bible and the Holy Spirit's leading. Over and over so He leaves a mark on us and in our minds. I like what JGIG said here;

Perhaps you should spend some more time in Galatians . . . that passage's location popped right into my head .

-JGIG

It's a very awesome thing the renewed spirit man (born again person) Because of our need for Jesus in our daily lives, we have to saturate our minds and hearts as much as possible with the Word because it is the answer to every issue we face. It's the only place to go. Our minds can go directly to the truth about Jesus and His love. Worldly philosophy and arguments don't answer the vital need God put in us. The only answer that brings satisfaction and joy is when Jesus is the subject.

Reading verse after verse and application after application here on the forums these days is doing what the Bible says about how iron sharpens iron. Even if the explaining is done 30Xs it's good. It took me some time to understand even the possibility of the grace of God in Christ. It took reading it over and over and hearing it preached over and over to actually believe that God's love is unconditional IN Christ.

Unconditional love goes so against human reason. HR finds so many different arguments to try and cover up grace. And it can't be done. We can't earn the love of God by our good works. Nor can we; as it's been stated over and over, keep ourselves. It takes our perfect High Priest Jesus who is 100% pure.

I'm thinking there is a reason that the sinful and hopeless people came flocking to Jesus and fell at His feet. Even when it was against the religious law because they were unclean. It's because they had nothing in themselves and saw the first glimmer of any hope-in Christ. They had no place else to go to find mercy and love. Religion condemned them based on who they were in society and they could not get better on their own. Even if they got up the next morning to start a new day it was not new it was the same old horrible kind of day they had before. They were defeated and hopeless in the world and in themselves.

But the religious people, the ones who had means to take care of themselves would not come to Jesus and fall at His feet crying how wretched and needy they were. They never saw past the comforts and the religion of rituals and works that they could actually do. The formula they followed was doable for them.

When life is no longer 'doable' that is when people start falling down at Jesus feet begging for the hope they hear from the Word of God and from the Christians that pass out the Gospel. There is nothing in us that can make us worthy of God's love and mercy and grace. It is a gift only to sinners who receive it. The ones who don't really need it won't come and take it. They want to somehow use their abilities to help get them up and out of sin. It can't be done.

I'm late!!! gotta go., GREAT POSTS.

 

[Angela53510]

Wow! I finally caught up to the end.

So back pages ago, when I last posted, we were talking about the three stages of salvation. HeRose wrote an interesting post, in which he allowed that both justification and glorification were monergist, or solely the work of God.

But then, confusing me somewhat, was that sanctification, was synergistic, meaning that people are calling the shots in their lives, along with God once they are saved

Confusing, because it seems to render God impotent and unnecessary in the middle stage. If we can do it ourselves, then God has no role to play. If God is unnecessary, then how does it have anything to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the comfort, encouragement, and advocacy of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised in John 16?

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:7-14

Why did Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts and lead and guide us, according to the will of the Father, if we could do it ourselves? Or, if you do believe in a role for the Holy Spirit in salvation, does he just pop in and out to correct, and then disappears, like a fairy godmother? God is not magical. He did not change his method of salvation in the middle.

Our salvation, from start to end comes totally from God. And then, there is the issue, if God saves and glorifies a person, what happens if that person fails to become more sanctified and grow into the image of Christ? Does that mean that God won't glorify them? Or does that mean that God's effort to justify that person didn't work in the first place?

Either God is in control, or he isn't! Either he is Almighty God, King and Creator of the universe, or he is a weakling, hoping that his children can somehow make it to the end, on basically their own efforts. You know, doing works!

I can only praise God that he revealed the truth that he has justified me, adopted me, sealed me forever as his child. I give thanks always that God is transforming me into his image. Because if sanctification was up to me, I know I wouldn't make it.

 

[posthuman]

Words can be redefined to suit the purpose of the moment.

wait - you mean like when someone else says grace empowers us to do good, and you attack the idea (post #8)-- but when you say grace gives us the ability to do good (post #60), it's fine, and you feel like that's totally not the same thing, and scurry to fiddle with the definitions of those two words (post #265)?

​

 

[posthuman]

This is not true. The Augustinian concept of original sin didn't exist as church doctrine before Augustine. If it did, prove it.

i think it might be helpful on this point if you explain what you think Romans 5:12-21 is telling us. specifically, why you don't think Paul is in any way at all talking about 'original sin' here.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But then, confusing me somewhat, was that sanctification, was synergistic, meaning that people are calling the shots in their lives, along with God once they are saved

Confusing, because it seems to render God impotent and unnecessary in the middle stage. If we can do it ourselves, then God has no role to play. If God is unnecessary, then how does it have anything to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the comfort, encouragement, and advocacy of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised in John 16?

...
Why did Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts and lead and guide us, according to the will of the Father, if we could do it ourselves? Or, if you do believe in a role for the Holy Spirit in salvation, does he just pop in and out to correct, and then disappears, like a fairy godmother? God is not magical. He did not change his method of salvation in the middle.

Our salvation, from start to end comes totally from God. And then, there is the issue, if God saves and glorifies a person, what happens if that person fails to become more sanctified and grow into the image of Christ? Does that mean that God won't glorify them? Or does that mean that God's effort to justify that person didn't work in the first place?

Either God is in control, or he isn't! Either he is Almighty God, King and Creator of the universe, or he is a weakling, hoping that his children can somehow make it to the end, on basically their own efforts. You know, doing works!

I can only praise God that he revealed the truth that he has justified me, adopted me, sealed me forever as his child. I give thanks always that God is transforming me into his image. Because if sanctification was up to me, I know I wouldn't make it.

You have touched on the crux issue of the controversy: total inability vs. free will.

Those who have internalized the belief in total inability view free will as independence from GOD. This is considered blasphemy because they can't imagine being able to do anything unless GOD controls them and overcomes the weakness of their will. As a reformed website puts it:

Those [things that GOD commands] are things we do because of God’s hand on us and because of His enabling power. This is because we can’t carry these things out freely – we’re too corrupt. ​

Luther said that man's will was so damaged that it could perform good or bad deeds only as "it was ridden [like a horse] either by God or the devil".

This concept was foreign to the church until Augustine incorporated it into church doctrine. All of the church fathers before him witnessed of man's free will to do the will of GOD.

Synergistic means working together with GOD. He gives us the ability and guidance through his spirit and scripture to do his will. It doesn't mean being independent of GOD, but working together for a common purpose. Those who believe in total inability view this synergistic relationship as self-effort, works of law, self-righteousness, etc., etc., but in actuality it's just man doing that part of sanctification that scripture witnesses in many places is man's work and responsibility. And without it, no one will see the lord.

Follow peace with everyone, and holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14​