Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

wait - you mean like when someone else says grace empowers us to do good, and you attack the idea (post #8)-- but when you say grace gives us the ability to do good (post #60), it's fine, and you feel like that's totally not the same thing, and scurry to fiddle with the definitions of those two words (post #265)?

​

I was just pointing out what the word dunamis means (ability), and how it being translated as power appeals to those who have internalized the belief in total inability. If you don't believe you are able to do something, then if you are going to imagine that you are doing it, you have to believe something more powerful than your will is doing it through you.

 

[Grace777x70]

It's always so good to take scripture in context...let's look at Hebrews 12:14 in context...it is talking about our behavior....if it is bad "others" ( no man shall see the Lord ) will not see the Lord in us.. we are the light of the world..a living epistle of the Lord.

Hebrews 12:12-15 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

The context of this verse, Hebrews 12:13 instructs us to not walk in a manner that will cause others to stumble. Therefore, I believe this verse isn’t talking about us seeing God but rather that if we don’t act in a holy manner, no one will see God in our lives.

That would certainly be a true statement that is not only consistent with Hebrews 12:14 but leads perfectly into Hebrews 12:15.


Our actions don’t earn the grace of God. That wouldn’t be grace (Romans 11:6). Therefore, we don’t fall from grace by not being holy enough to earn it. Galatians 5:4 speaks of falling from grace by putting faith in our works instead of having our faith firmly placed in Christ and what He did for us. So, the way people “fail of the grace of God” is through legalism.


Hebrews 12:15 - Notice that bitterness in our lives doesn’t just hurt or poison us but many people. Again the context of this verse shows that we are supposed to walk in a manner that influences others in a positive way. If we get bitter, that bitterness will affect others.

Works-based salvationsists have used this verse to beat people with for years as we know we are sanctified forever in our inner man now and we do need to work out what is already in us in Christ in our outward behavior. This has nothing to do with " becoming un-born " and not seeing the Lord ourselves and thus losing the free gift He gave us in Christ's finished work.

 

[Angela53510]

I was just pointing out what the word dunamis means (ability), and how it being translated as power appeals to those who have internalized the belief in total inability. If you don't believe you are able to do something, then if you are going to imagine that you are doing it, you have to believe something more powerful than your will is doing it through you.

I've got Bauer (BDAG) open in front of me to the word dunamis. It means SO MUCH MORE than just ability. When referring to God, it is total power. But as far as sin is concerned one should be wary about the ability of self to overcome. I would rather trust in God's power, not my own ability, as I have faced the darkness before I was saved and came up wanting! I found that trusting in the Lord with all my heart and leaning not to my own understanding, acknowledging him and his power has kept my paths straight. (Proverbs 5:3-5)

So dunamis:
1. Potential for functioning in some way, power, might, strength, force, capability.
A. General - Acts 1:8 lambanein dunamis. Receive power!
Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Romans 1:20 "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

B. Specific - the power that works wonders
Acts 10: 38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

2. Ability to carry out something, ability, capability
Hebrews 11:11 " By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.

3. A deed that exhibits ability to function powerfully, deed of power, miracle, wonder
Luke 19:37 "As he was drawing near—already on the way down the Mount of Olives—the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen,

4. Something that serves as an adjunct of power, resource
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] Rev 18:3 "[/FONT]and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”

5. An entity or being, whether human or transcendent that functions in a remarkable manner, power
Eph. 1:21 "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come."

6. The capacity to convey thought, meaning through language.
1 Cor. 14:11

 

[ladylynn]

It's always so good to take scripture in context...let's look at Hebrews 12:14 in context...it is talking about our behavior....if it is bad "others" ( no man shall see the Lord ) will not see the Lord in us.. we are the light of the world..a living epistle of the Lord.

Hebrews 12:12-15 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

The context of this verse, Hebrews 12:13 instructs us to not walk in a manner that will cause others to stumble. Therefore, I believe this verse isn’t talking about us seeing God but rather that if we don’t act in a holy manner, no one will see God in our lives.

That would certainly be a true statement that is not only consistent with Hebrews 12:14 but leads perfectly into Hebrews 12:15.


Our actions don’t earn the grace of God. That wouldn’t be grace (Romans 11:6). Therefore, we don’t fall from grace by not being holy enough to earn it. Galatians 5:4 speaks of falling from grace by putting faith in our works instead of having our faith firmly placed in Christ and what He did for us. So, the way people “fail of the grace of God” is through legalism.


Hebrews 12:15 - Notice that bitterness in our lives doesn’t just hurt or poison us but many people. Again the context of this verse shows that we are supposed to walk in a manner that influences others in a positive way. If we get bitter, that bitterness will affect others.

Works-based salvationsists have used this verse to beat people with for years as we know we are sanctified forever in our inner man now and we do need to work out what is already in us in Christ in our outward behavior. This has nothing to do with " becoming un-born " and not seeing the Lord ourselves and thus losing the free gift He gave us in Christ's finished work.

That is the truth!! AMEN!! It all changes when we see it like this. How often do believers have no power to walk the walk?!! They are saved and have the promises. They want to love God and follow Him but yet they are living weak and beggarly lives. They feel condemned by God and rejected because they see no blessings from His hand.

They go to church, do the "christian" things., they try to get joy when reading the Bible but see something major is missing so reading the Bible doesn't bring joy but guilt. The Bible is something to learn from but not get all emotional about. It does make good moral sense and we can feel self righteous as we hold to it. Especially if we have more verses and commentary to prove the points we hold to.

This is the explanation. They are walking in their own power. They don't know about the grace of God that supersedes human logic. How can resting be working????!!! Makes NO human sense. I can say this because that was me for a very loooong time. Saved but no power to be like Jesus. Religion didn't give the power. Neither did sheer human will power. Because they were both works of the flesh and not fruits of the Spirit.

The context of this verse, Hebrews 12:13 instructs us to not walk in a manner that will cause others to stumble. Therefore, I believe this verse isn’t talking about us seeing God but rather that if we don’t act in a holy manner, no one will see God in our lives.

That would certainly be a true statement that is not only consistent with Hebrews 12:14 but leads perfectly into Hebrews 12:15.


Our actions don’t earn the grace of God. That wouldn’t be grace (Romans 11:6). Therefore, we don’t fall from grace by not being holy enough to earn it. Galatians 5:4 speaks of falling from grace by putting faith in our works instead of having our faith firmly placed in Christ and what He did for us. So, the way people “fail of the grace of God” is through legalism.


This is why even us REAL Christians can have a form of Godliness and yet deny the real power in our lives. It is still our own fault. Religion is a very "religious" and seemingly a very "holy" looking thing we can put on pridefully. It's often hard to tell where religion leaves off and Jesus Christ comes in. This is why many Christians can be mean as snakes. Jealous and envious of others. Not content with their lot.

They have yet to allow the Holy Spirit to actually be teaching and guiding into a transformed mind. Since they are doing a "fine" job on their own. Or so they think until some event causes them to fall flat on their behinds.

The good news is when the believer realizes this major error, God's grace flows and the Holy Spirit is doing the teaching and transforming now. He gets us out of the "religion" and gives us a relationship that instills His love and grace into our hearts like the Bible says. The love of God is spread abroad in our hearts. It is never too late and God is always in the business of restoration. And He loves us even still as if we walked right all along. How is that possible?? Grace.

 

[JaumeJ]

Our Father considers obedience superior to sacrifice. He considers disobedience as witchcraft.

Yes, we who are in Christ, live in grace, however grace is never to be taken as license to disobey the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If anyone needs to know everything about obedience, learn the teaching of the Gospel by and from Jesus Christ; there is no other..... Always remember and apply faith, justice and mercy, and all will be well with you.

 

[blessedjohn80]

Our Father considers obedience superior to sacrifice. He considers disobedience as witchcraft.

Yes, we who are in Christ, live in grace, however grace is never to be taken as license to disobey the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If anyone needs to know everything about obedience, learn the teaching of the Gospel by and from Jesus Christ; there is no other..... Always remember and apply faith, justice and mercy, and all will be well with you.

Obedience is superior to sacrifice? Jesus perfected obedience, no man can ever replicate that. Adam's obedience is not superior to Jesus' sacrifice.

All kinds of sacrifices then were burnt to a crisp but did Jesus die before it was finished? No, He willingly gave His Spirit to God after proclaiming "it is Finished!"

You obey because you are saved, not obey to be saved. You love because you were first loved, not love to be loved. You can never outdo God, Jesus made a very clear example of this with Peter. Peter was so confident in his love for Jesus but ended up denying him 3 times.

I am saved by Jesus perfect sacrifice, I have my helmet of salvation on. Peace.

 

[JaumeJ]

Jesus Christ teaches obedience, if not He would not be our Example.
You cannot hear my tone, therefore I must add, I share this in the love of Jesus because I believe all should understand this. It is from God, and not a whim nor a personal opinion. This stems from decades of prayer, reading and meditation. God bless all in Jesus Christ.



1Sa 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[PeterJens]

He did not call them clean because of what they did or did not do, or how they lived, or even how great or small or unfailing or weak their faith was.

He said to them:

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
(John 15:3) ​

There is a point of understanding, quite a simple one. Clean is referring to what? Clean bodies, clean heart, clean soul, clean mind?

Look at Jesus's teaching. He was not talking about clean hands which the pharisees were always keen to point out.
He refers to what defiles people is what comes out of their hearts. So he is talking about his words have cleansed their hearts. They are pure, righteous, whole.

Jesus is always preaching about the inside attitude, who you really are, how sorted out you are in life and everything that springs from this. If you are a mess inside, all the religious pompous claims and beliefs are nothing, just a covering.

Purity of the soul is everything. Love that dwells within is the Kingdom of Heaven, where Christ and the Holy Spirit are.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I've got Bauer (BDAG) open in front of me to the word dunamis. It means SO MUCH MORE than just ability. When referring to God, it is total power. But as far as sin is concerned one should be wary about the ability of self to overcome. I would rather trust in God's power, not my own ability, as I have faced the darkness before I was saved and came up wanting! I found that trusting in the Lord with all my heart and leaning not to my own understanding, acknowledging him and his power has kept my paths straight. (Proverbs 5:3-5)

Yes dunamis has shades of meaning. I based my comment primarily on TDNT.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

Words of this stem all have the basic sense of ability or capability. dýnamai means a. “to be able” in a general sense, b. “to be able” with reference to the attitude that makes one able, hence sometimes “to will,” and c. (of things) “to be equivalent to,” “to count as,” “to signify.” dynatós means “one who has ability or power,” “one who is powerful”; the neuter adjective signifies “what is possible or practicable.” dynatéō means “to have great ability.” adýnatos means “one who has no ability or strength”; the noun tó adýnaton signifies “impossibility” and adýnatón esti “to be impossible.” adynatéō means “not to be able.” dýnamis, the most important word in the group, means “ability,” then “possibility,” then “power” both physical and intellectual or spiritual. dýnastēs has the sense of “one who can do something” and was early used for “ruler” (including God as ruler). dynamóō and endynamóō both mean “to give power,” “to make strong,” “to strengthen.”​

IMO GOD is more interested in our having ability, than power. That was one of the most important revelations ever.

And [GOD] said [to Elijah], Thou shalt go forth to-morrow, and shalt stand before the Lord in the mount; behold, the Lord will pass by. And, behold, a great [and] strong wind rending the mountains, and crushing the rocks before the Lord; [but] the Lord [was] not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake; [but] the Lord [was] not in the earthquake: and after the earthquake a fire; [but] the Lord [was] not in the fire: and after the fire the voice of a gentle breeze; there was the Lord. ​ 1 Kings 19:11-12​

 

[PeterJens]

I've got Bauer (BDAG) open in front of me to the word dunamis. It means SO MUCH MORE than just ability. When referring to God, it is total power. But as far as sin is concerned one should be wary about the ability of self to overcome. I would rather trust in God's power, not my own ability, as I have faced the darkness before I was saved and came up wanting! I found that trusting in the Lord with all my heart and leaning not to my own understanding, acknowledging him and his power has kept my paths straight. (Proverbs 5:3-5)

There are many aspects of teaching in the church where emphasis is laid.
Now I thought life was a simple experience and understanding Christ in faith was it.

What I also discovered was a whole emotional reality of ties and allegiances that made me who I was.
One was a love of my parents, that was deep and foundational, without condition. Another was just to be accepted by someone else, deep down, and be understood.
I needed to admit these realities and express them. In the ten commandments, Honour your father and mother is there.

Jesus on the cross says "I love you."

Emotional denial of the world of sin within. I have within me all the sin anyone could ever commit, just missing the circumstance. None is fully formed but I have the seeds. I need to face that reality, I am a lost sinner in need.
I need to face I wall off emotion, anger, sexual desire, frustration because I do not like admitting that it is part of me.
I had a wall of anger within, that needed letting go and just being open.

Now at the end of this journey, I can say I know what purity is. And what has guided me through, Jesus love me, accepts me with my weaknesses and failures, all my blindness and poverty of faith and spirit.

Jesus points the way, highlights the doors, shows the locks and provides the keys, but we have to open the doors, let down the blinds and let in the light. We are being made into children of God, with authority, judgement, a foundation in the principles and heart of the Lord, as brothers and sisters in the Lord. This means doing things, choosing and becoming something fuller and greater than we were as sinners lost in sin.

I do not believe anyone is any less bound by the same principles I am talking about here. And Jesus is the Lord and key to it all, there in scripture if anyone is willing to apply and work through the reality of who they are.

It is not self sorting things through and it is not Jesus sorting things through, it is a communion between the two.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I've got Bauer (BDAG) open in front of me to the word dunamis. It means SO MUCH MORE than just ability. When referring to God, it is total power. But as far as sin is concerned one should be wary about the ability of self to overcome. I would rather trust in God's power, not my own ability, as I have faced the darkness before I was saved and came up wanting! I found that trusting in the Lord with all my heart and leaning not to my own understanding, acknowledging him and his power has kept my paths straight. (Proverbs 5:3-5)

If GOD tells us to not sin, what could possibly be the problem if of our own free will and effort we stop sinning? It's almost as if how we overcome sin has become a touchstone of the Christian faith to those who believe in total inability. This really is the crux of the controversy between those who believe that obedience is required to be saved, and those who don't.

Keep in mind that this idea of total inability came from a man (Augustine) who was heavily influenced by Plato and the gnostics, and who was tormented by his own propensity to indulge in vices. Even as a Christian, this man had a dualistic view of GOD. And his theology basically undergirds all of western Christian theology.

"Plato made me to know the true God, Jesus Christ showed me the way to Him." - Augustine​

​

 

[blessedjohn80]

Jesus Christ teaches obedience, if not He would not be our Example.
You cannot hear my tone, therefore I must add, I share this in the love of Jesus because I believe all should understand this. It is from God, and not a whim nor a personal opinion. This stems from decades of prayer, reading and meditation. God bless all in Jesus Christ.



1Sa 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

1Sa 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Jesus does teach obedience but does not teach obedience as a way to salvation. Obedience is for man not God. Since God is everything good and life disobedience means death. Man (Adam) had a perfect relationship with God (walk with God, face to face) but as good as man (Adam) was he ultimately disobeyed hence came sin that leads to death(separation from God).

God knowing man is not perfect gave His son to be born as a man, perfected obedience as a man, took all the punishment for the disobedience(hence salvation) and restored the relationship which was lost. Jesus teaches obedience because it is still the only way to have a good relationship with God.

I am saved because of Jesus, my relationship is restored because of His blood and by His teachings my walk with God cannot ever be broken.

Salvation through obedience, as good and righteous as that might sound, if you live by it, you unknowingly proclaim that you are not saved. Since it is up to you and your walk with Christ to receive salvation.

I do say these things also in love, knowing my salvation is secure, I share the good news to you that your salvation is secure as well. This does not stem from myself but by the extreme grace of God revealed through Jesus work on the cross. Peace.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus does teach obedience but does not teach obedience as a way to salvation. Obedience is for man not God. Since God is everything good and life disobedience means death. Man (Adam) had a perfect relationship with God (walk with God, face to face) but as good as man (Adam) was he ultimately disobeyed hence came sin that leads to death(separation from God).

God knowing man is not perfect gave His son to be born as a man, perfected obedience as a man, took all the punishment for the disobedience(hence salvation) and restored the relationship which was lost. Jesus teaches obedience because it is still the only way to have a good relationship with God.

I am saved because of Jesus, my relationship is restored because of His blood and by His teachings my walk with God cannot ever be broken.

Salvation through obedience, as good and righteous as that might sound, if you live by it, you unknowingly proclaim that you are not saved. Since it is up to you and your walk with Christ to receive salvation.

I do say these things also in love, knowing my salvation is secure, I share the good news to you that your salvation is secure as well. This does not stem from myself but by the extreme grace of God revealed through Jesus work on the cross. Peace.

Salvation apart from obedience is a myth. It's just inconceivable that Christians actually think salvation can be separated from obedience.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a great article on the "root of obedience"....the comments at the bottom of the article are sometimes good to get further understanding...it will bless you and make you fall deeper in love with our Lord.

The Root of Obedience – Escape to Reality

 

[Grace777x70]

Context is king when viewing all scripture.....scripture must be compared with other scripture - or you can make the bible say anything you want....

Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "...these people were not believers.....everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....

Jesus never said that " He once knew them...but He NEVER knew them at all "

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.



Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. we walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have found at least 7 things about doing the will of God on this earth now that we are in Christ.

1) That we have eternal life in Christ - John 6:40

2) That we be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:16-21

3) That we live a pure, disciplined lifestyle - 1 Thess 4:3-4 ( we live out that holiness that is already in us in our new man ..created in Christ in righteousness and holiness )

4) That we are rejoicing in the Lord, praying without ceasing, and grateful - 1 Thess 5:16-18

5) That we be a law-abiding citizen - 1 Peter 2:13-16

6) That we believe and influence others to believe - 2 Peter 3:9

7) That we commit ourselves to God and other believers - 2 Cor 8:5

According to the works-based salvationists...if someone is not joyful one day or didn't pray for a couple of days...or was not grateful for a day or so and they died..then they would go to hell because they didn't do " the will of God"..( see #4 above )....how foolish this nonsense is.

What about #5 above...if you speed and crash your car and die..you go to hell because you were not doing " the will of God"...again the complete foolishness of people that say not doing all the will of God are not saved - without factoring in the finished work of our Lord Jesus for He is our salvation.

The "doing of the will of God" for salvation is to believe on Christ and it is by grace through faith only - no works. Eph 2:8-9

The saint who rests in Christ and in His finished work is the will of God and what appears to be his free choices are actually God's will for him. It's loving God because you know His love for you, doing what is inside of you under His influence. Phil 2:13

 

[JaumeJ]

There seems to be a predisposed argument here.

If you are afraid of the law, then you do not understand grace.

Are you saying that God's law is all a lie? No man can live perfectly by it, this is why Jesus Christ had to die for us all, but grace does not make God a liar.

When you understand what Jesus Christ teaches, then respond to what I have posted, but please do not make this some kind of contention about God's wisdom in His laws for that is tantamount to saying the Old Testament is a lie, the Psalms and the Prophets teachings, Moses, Abraham.. Please do not teach on what you do not understand.

There is prophesy and wisdom in the law, not to forget the law points to Jesus Christ. Apparently ñyou ae still viewing th e law through the veil, were you not so, you would understand Christ's Example and teaching..


Too many people think grace is license to call God stupid or a liar. The law is exactly what it is taught to be according to Jesus Christ Who gave it to us in the first place.......Try to see it without the veil.

Jesus does teach obedience but does not teach obedience as a way to salvation. Obedience is for man not God. Since God is everything good and life disobedience means death. Man (Adam) had a perfect relationship with God (walk with God, face to face) but as good as man (Adam) was he ultimately disobeyed hence came sin that leads to death(separation from God).

God knowing man is not perfect gave His son to be born as a man, perfected obedience as a man, took all the punishment for the disobedience(hence salvation) and restored the relationship which was lost. Jesus teaches obedience because it is still the only way to have a good relationship with God.

I am saved because of Jesus, my relationship is restored because of His blood and by His teachings my walk with God cannot ever be broken.

Salvation through obedience, as good and righteous as that might sound, if you live by it, you unknowingly proclaim that you are not saved. Since it is up to you and your walk with Christ to receive salvation.

I do say these things also in love, knowing my salvation is secure, I share the good news to you that your salvation is secure as well. This does not stem from myself but by the extreme grace of God revealed through Jesus work on the cross. Peace.

 

[PeterJens]

Obedience

There is an interesting argument. If you try and prove you are believing christ by obeying you will find you fail. That is attempting to earn your salvation which is impossible. Loving from the heart can only happen when you are clean inside, which again only happens because love and communion have taken place in your soul with Christ.

On the flip side if Christ has cleaned your heart, you are walking in purity and holiness, you would know sin contaminates and destroys life and who you are. You would see how passions without context are death, leading to jealousy, anger, rage, suicide, murder, envy, lust. So you obey because that is who you actually are, it is part of your nature.

So I understand why people say you cannot earn your salvation as if not obeying looses your salvation, it is not obeying indicates your heart is not clean, you have not resolved major issues in your life and God still has serious work to do of cleansing and healing who you are. Because the apostles had arrived, they were clean, they spoke as they did.

And it is wrong to think doctrine changes these realities, you either walk in them or they are just words like Jesus saying, you are clean because of the words I spoke to you, as if this is a magical formula, that memorising a set of words cleanses your soul. You have to put them into action and see how you react. That tells you where you actually are before the Lord.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Your answer is great except it is not looking at Christ it is about dealing with sin.

My answer would be to take someone through Jesus's attitude to others. Looking at the people Jesus met and their attitude to Him. Looking at the sermon on the mount and which things He praised and what he critised or warned against.

This for me is looking at Christ. Another aspect that helped me, was reading studies on the issues Jesus went through in the last week of His life before the cross. Again this is looking at Christ.

What also helped me is comparing this to my own attitudes to people. The gulf demonstrated how different we were, which was extremely humbling and demonstrated to me how much I still had to learn.

So, you look only to the historical Jesus and not the living, risen Jesus. That explains much.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That's what the spirit told me about the man.

That's what "it" told him.