Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version
- Thread starter PeterJens
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
G
Hah. Now we are getting somewhere...................from my DOCTRINE and what I BELIEVE.
I could fool you with lots of overt works and being real nice.
But you KNOW I have faith alone in Christ alone by what I BELIEVE and SAY..........my true fruit.
But this for other men. They can judge me and make their own call.
Between me and God ............we are square.
I could fool you with lots of overt works and being real nice.
But you KNOW I have faith alone in Christ alone by what I BELIEVE and SAY..........my true fruit.
But this for other men. They can judge me and make their own call.
Between me and God ............we are square.
My goodness! More slander!
Who are the some/many? Who said anywhere that the Holy Spirit (Please use capitals at the beginning to show respect for God, if you don't mind) that the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin. I quoted that Scripture a few pages back, to encourage people to use it.
So please actually quote WHO quoted it and if possible, which post and in which thread. If you can't be bothered to find it, (I don't blame you for that!) then how about just not posting?
“You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness." Exodus 23:1
Rumour and innuendo! This forum is just filled with it. Instead, let us not slander one another, and follow what the Word of God says below.
"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." Eph. 4:31-32
PS. I wasn't going to post anymore on this thread, but someone posted the passage from Ephesians on my FB, and of course, I thought it would be appropriate to post here. Then I find yet more "some/many" accusations, not based on evidence or provable fact, again!!
G
It's real simple. I have faith alone in Christ alone AND the life that you preach for salvation.....out of my thankfulness.
So if I am deceived in faith alone in Christ alone and that didn't save me........I have my life of obedience also.
morality results from spirituality.
Spirituality does not result from morality.
But if your deceived, and eternal life was not garnered from your obedience................and it was faith alone. You lose.
So if I am deceived in faith alone in Christ alone and that didn't save me........I have my life of obedience also.
morality results from spirituality.
Spirituality does not result from morality.
But if your deceived, and eternal life was not garnered from your obedience................and it was faith alone. You lose.
"Thus...we will become the full measure of what Christ is."
Jesus said men can know God because they know Me, do people know Jesus because they know you? Do they see Jesus in you behaviorally, in your convinced mindset of God's Spiritual Truths? You are right we need not succeed in our behavior for Christ does that for us, but we must be intentional as to which seeds we plant in our lives, and soul. for from a fig tree comes figs and from apple trees come apples, thus if I walk in Jesus' footsteps I will have walked as Jesus walked inherently not manufactured by us, rightness has to do with righteousness or a right relationship with God, not in a task for the task follows the righteousness concurrently.
We must put our effort and onward toil of climb upward in the staying submitted and obedient to a person of God who is capable of supernatural emergence, we don't think of our lives as supernatural enough sometimes -- we must live supernormally in Christ Jesus.
On your other points -- all rewards are to glorify Him, but if God ordains it also us.. All things are to bring God glory, and to be seen as in His glory. But I not pretentiously rewarded with a true heart of love, but an actual one. He will reward me with glory in Him in heaven as well -- actually..
Also, my desire is not to avoid discipline of God but I relish in His rebuke due to His character of Love and wisdom, and knowing all He does in that line will bring me to more what i need and will be joyous in overall.
Also, in reflexion of your comments :I hadn't better obey!!, I must surrender willingly in a fervent love passion with Jesus Christ.
Salvation is the real deal when we believe, but dying to self won't be really our stead until God has us go thru the real event of our (not Him ) crucifying ourselves in Christ, to be manifested in our new creations disposition.. This takes place after regeneration, and thru it we gain perseverance, and Character which spawns hope, thankfulness and humility. I may be guaranteed a relationship with God via Christ, but to have a real relationship that remains steadfast and diligent we must spend time together to gain experiences that bond us and equip us and enlighten us as to what that relationship means in a true sense to ourselves..
Jesus said men can know God because they know Me, do people know Jesus because they know you? Do they see Jesus in you behaviorally, in your convinced mindset of God's Spiritual Truths? You are right we need not succeed in our behavior for Christ does that for us, but we must be intentional as to which seeds we plant in our lives, and soul. for from a fig tree comes figs and from apple trees come apples, thus if I walk in Jesus' footsteps I will have walked as Jesus walked inherently not manufactured by us, rightness has to do with righteousness or a right relationship with God, not in a task for the task follows the righteousness concurrently.
We must put our effort and onward toil of climb upward in the staying submitted and obedient to a person of God who is capable of supernatural emergence, we don't think of our lives as supernatural enough sometimes -- we must live supernormally in Christ Jesus.
On your other points -- all rewards are to glorify Him, but if God ordains it also us.. All things are to bring God glory, and to be seen as in His glory. But I not pretentiously rewarded with a true heart of love, but an actual one. He will reward me with glory in Him in heaven as well -- actually..
Also, my desire is not to avoid discipline of God but I relish in His rebuke due to His character of Love and wisdom, and knowing all He does in that line will bring me to more what i need and will be joyous in overall.
Also, in reflexion of your comments :I hadn't better obey!!, I must surrender willingly in a fervent love passion with Jesus Christ.
Salvation is the real deal when we believe, but dying to self won't be really our stead until God has us go thru the real event of our (not Him ) crucifying ourselves in Christ, to be manifested in our new creations disposition.. This takes place after regeneration, and thru it we gain perseverance, and Character which spawns hope, thankfulness and humility. I may be guaranteed a relationship with God via Christ, but to have a real relationship that remains steadfast and diligent we must spend time together to gain experiences that bond us and equip us and enlighten us as to what that relationship means in a true sense to ourselves..
Please re-read your OP. I guess you don't re-read the posts, or anything anyone else has written. I went through your OP in post #867, page 44.
I bolded every time you said "they, them, these, themselves, and their" You did that 19 times, and not once did you actually quote anyone's actual words.
That is slander, innuendo. You are starting unsubstantiated rumours in your OP.
I think you need to learn to read and write in English. Because you seem to be clueless that I was talking about what YOU said, PeterJens, in the OP. THEY! Who are "they" Peter?? You are the one who started this endless thread, with 19 lies/rumours, slanderous statements which had no evidence to back them.
Please get that straight in your mind. I know this is difficult for you. I tried to explain this to you right back in the beginning of this thread, but you were clueless about what I was saying, Peter.
But I carefully bolded in post # 867 each incidence of you using third person plural "they" to say a bunch of unproven, unverified and very slanderous and outright wrong statements. It is not "they" that is the problem! It is "you" using the word "they" to start slanderous rumours.
Sorry, but you are not just lacking "scholarship" Peter, but a basic grasp of the English language. Or worse!
As for my proposition, it is totally correct. You started an OP slandering everyone in this forum, by using the word "they." Instead of saying a certain person or persons, by name, said such and such, in the following thread, post #? Or using the multiple quote button.
Do you get it yet? That you are the agitator, who has slandered literally every person in this forum? And the reason I say everyone, is because there wasn't one single one of those accusations that I have ever seen a single person say. It is all in your head, Peter. All in your head! As for the 300 of us who are part of your "they" who have never said one of those things, I am very tired of your lies and slander.
Several people suggested this point on previous threads. When we looked at scripture, it appeared to imply the Holy Spirit teaches and brings truth, but ones conscience convicts the person of sin.
The reason why the issue came up was because the point was made that the ministry of the Holy Spirit never convicted believers of sin just pointed to Jesus. This position was backed up by grace7x77 quotes.
The problem is as we have had now 3 months of discussions, a lot of points will be raised because those holding the extreme grace camp have put forward these proposals. If you look it the literature around this movement, these propositions are not new.
The reason why the issue came up was because the point was made that the ministry of the Holy Spirit never convicted believers of sin just pointed to Jesus. This position was backed up by grace7x77 quotes.
The problem is as we have had now 3 months of discussions, a lot of points will be raised because those holding the extreme grace camp have put forward these proposals. If you look it the literature around this movement, these propositions are not new.
T
2Peter
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
**********************************************************************
EG:
"I did, he is saying make sure your saved and not just talking,,ie not hearers onlt, not just a claimed faith but a real faith."
Thanks EG ... I find that hard to reconcile, though, since Peter is addressing this letter to those he says HAVE received faith (2 Peter 1 verse 1).
Thanks for sharing though ... I appreciate your contribution.
*********************************************************************
PEACEFUL WARRIOR:
Matthew Henry has this to say about it: "...let Christians labour to attain assurance of their calling, and of their election, by believing and well-doing; and thus carefully to endeavour, is a firm argument of the grace and mercy of God, upholding them so that they shall not utterly fall."
So: Make haste and give careful and persistent study to the qualities previously mentioned. (2 Pet 5-7)
Thanks for your contribution PW.
I can't say I understand Henry's words here any differently than I do Peter's words ... to me they seem to say the same thing?
But you say it is by studying the qualities listed makes our calling and election sure? Yes? Could you elaborate please?
*********************************************************************
GRACE777x7
The word "diligence" means " to make haste" " be eager".. and it is the exact same Greek word for Let us "labor" to enter into His rest in Heb 4:11..if that helps any...
Yes, that helps clarify
Good- thank you.
_______________________________________________________________________
The reason one is unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is that they forgot that their sins were purged by the blood of our Lord. verse 9 - 2Per 1:9..
.it pays rich dividends to know what Christ has already done for us and then we walk in faith of that...the righteous shall live by faith.
I think this is where I get lost in Peter's discourse. He says add to your faith, virtue.
If faith in Christ's sacrifice IS virtue (righteousness) then why is he asking us to ADD virtue?
You say this was addressed to those who had forgotten that their sins were purged ... but in the first verse Peter says: " Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" ... As far as I can see he is addressing those who do have faith?
______________________________________________________________________
Another note is that in verse 10 the Greek word "sure" means "to be stable" and "steadfast"...seems to me that we should be diligent or "make haste" to be secure it the calling and election He has called us in. This knowledge makes us secure in Him and the things of the kingdom of God will be manifested in our lives..
Those not living in the true knowledge of our Lord and not growing in Him will have unstable lives.
That would remove all my confusion if that's what Peter said. But he didn't say "to make your lives stable" ... he said ... "to make your calling and election stable."
Your word study is appreciated, though, Grace777x7
************************************************************************
GR8GRACE:
This is about our mental attitude in our standing with Christ. It is not about "testing" to see if we are really saved or not.
Give due diligence to your SURE calling and election........live in it,Don't doubt it. You are saved, now live in it. Move on to maturity.
Live in the sureness and the complete dependability of your standing in Christ. You are a part of His body and in union with Him. Nothing can separate us from Him.
If we don't live in our eternal security in Christ..............we go nowhere in the Christian way of life. We will forever be "stuck" on salvation.
If we don't live in the sureness of our election..........our spiritual life fails time and time again.
My spiritual life and personal relationship with God has been great ... even though I never proclaimed a sure salvation.
Respectfully -Peter does not say" your sure calling and election" ... he says "to make your calling and election SURE"
Stuck in salvation?
Thanks for offering your input GR8GRACE.
**********************************
JasonJ and Slave - thanks for adding to the thought pool ... I will have to give more consideration to your posts before replying.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
**********************************************************************
EG:
"I did, he is saying make sure your saved and not just talking,,ie not hearers onlt, not just a claimed faith but a real faith."
Thanks EG ... I find that hard to reconcile, though, since Peter is addressing this letter to those he says HAVE received faith (2 Peter 1 verse 1).
Thanks for sharing though ... I appreciate your contribution.
*********************************************************************
PEACEFUL WARRIOR:
Matthew Henry has this to say about it: "...let Christians labour to attain assurance of their calling, and of their election, by believing and well-doing; and thus carefully to endeavour, is a firm argument of the grace and mercy of God, upholding them so that they shall not utterly fall."
So: Make haste and give careful and persistent study to the qualities previously mentioned. (2 Pet 5-7)
Thanks for your contribution PW.
I can't say I understand Henry's words here any differently than I do Peter's words ... to me they seem to say the same thing?
But you say it is by studying the qualities listed makes our calling and election sure? Yes? Could you elaborate please?
*********************************************************************
GRACE777x7
The word "diligence" means " to make haste" " be eager".. and it is the exact same Greek word for Let us "labor" to enter into His rest in Heb 4:11..if that helps any...
Yes, that helps clarify
Good- thank you. _______________________________________________________________________
The reason one is unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is that they forgot that their sins were purged by the blood of our Lord. verse 9 - 2Per 1:9..
.it pays rich dividends to know what Christ has already done for us and then we walk in faith of that...the righteous shall live by faith.
I think this is where I get lost in Peter's discourse. He says add to your faith, virtue.
If faith in Christ's sacrifice IS virtue (righteousness) then why is he asking us to ADD virtue?
You say this was addressed to those who had forgotten that their sins were purged ... but in the first verse Peter says: " Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" ... As far as I can see he is addressing those who do have faith?
______________________________________________________________________
Another note is that in verse 10 the Greek word "sure" means "to be stable" and "steadfast"...seems to me that we should be diligent or "make haste" to be secure it the calling and election He has called us in. This knowledge makes us secure in Him and the things of the kingdom of God will be manifested in our lives..
Those not living in the true knowledge of our Lord and not growing in Him will have unstable lives.
That would remove all my confusion if that's what Peter said. But he didn't say "to make your lives stable" ... he said ... "to make your calling and election stable."
Your word study is appreciated, though, Grace777x7
************************************************************************
GR8GRACE:
This is about our mental attitude in our standing with Christ. It is not about "testing" to see if we are really saved or not.
Give due diligence to your SURE calling and election........live in it,Don't doubt it. You are saved, now live in it. Move on to maturity.
Live in the sureness and the complete dependability of your standing in Christ. You are a part of His body and in union with Him. Nothing can separate us from Him.
If we don't live in our eternal security in Christ..............we go nowhere in the Christian way of life. We will forever be "stuck" on salvation.
If we don't live in the sureness of our election..........our spiritual life fails time and time again.
My spiritual life and personal relationship with God has been great ... even though I never proclaimed a sure salvation.
Respectfully -Peter does not say" your sure calling and election" ... he says "to make your calling and election SURE"
Stuck in salvation?
Thanks for offering your input GR8GRACE.
**********************************
JasonJ and Slave - thanks for adding to the thought pool ... I will have to give more consideration to your posts before replying.
Are you being deceitful with me? Do you believe the holy spirit convicts believers of sin? Because some (many?) here don't believe that.
Originally Posted by posthuman
who in the world said that the holy spirit doesn't convict of sin?
who in the world said that the holy spirit doesn't convict of sin?
Reading through the posts...well not them all.. It is easy to see that not everyone is talking about the same thing... What I mean is thatit is not as simple as someone saying 'legalist' Vs. 'Grace'.
In the mix there are those who have the opposite error and that is the hyper grace guys who would deny that the Holy Spirit convicts believers of their sins, which is an erroneous theological perspective. So when you read through the posts please beaware of this especially where people are referring to grace - we know what legalism is, it is mostly easy to spot..it can be both an error and a wrong gospel. Hyper grace is a bit more subtle but can be just as harmful.
I also see a total disregard for actual discussion on what debaters mean by works is this the same as what Paul refers to as 'works of the law'?. I am assuming the debate is about believers? If so what is meant by works?
The next question is very important... When Paul is talking to believers what does he mean by 'works of the law'? This as I stated earlier is very import especially if you have been reading books about what Paul says etc (over the last 30 years, but more so in the last 10 or so).
You can often tell when someone quotes from Pauline writings about grace/law, whether or not they actually understand what Paul is talking about.
Anyhow, I Hope and pray we can all believe:
Justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Soli Deo Gloria.
- Status