Paster Women?

[PeacefulWarrior]

Thank you Roger.

Easy to lose track of verses among the M&M's.

I'm stuck in the second verse of the second chapter...
this footnote reads: "The Greek word anthropoi can refer to both men and women, depending on the context"
...so it looks like this one's gonna be quite a headache to sort out.

I wonder if "any" and "every" good work includes preaching.

2 Tim 2:21

New International Version
Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.


New Living Translation
If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I wonder if "any" and "every" good work includes preaching.

2 Tim 2:21

New International Version
Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.


New Living Translation
If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.

Ohhh, but KJV reads "man"...

King James Bible
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

The verses were posted did you ignore them?

Second Timothy chapters two and three.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I read those chapters you listed (2 Tim 2 & 3) and found nothing leading me to believe that God forbids women from teaching/preaching.

 

[CS1]

According to Ephesians 4:11 it is God Who gifts pastors to the church. Why would God say a bishop is to be the husband of one wife and then go ahead an send a wife in place of a husband?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

very good question,
that is why a women who preaches should not be called a bishop

 

[Depleted]

I said 'border line". But yeah, that is close to the actual description. I thought his "feet" post was in appropriate. I read the post by SBG saying that this was a old poster who was writing unbecoming PM's. He said in a post responding to me "easy for someone like you", which I have no idea what he meant, and I asked him to explain it and he didn't. I told him his posts seemed to indicate he was without the joy of Christ, and that he may lack a healthy amount of self confidence. He was taking the thread way off the main subject, after repeated requests to please get back on subject. I pointed out and implied that that while I was sensitive to his issues, there was a lot to be thankful for.
I said what I did about him having a altered perspective, believe or not, from love. Maybe I said it in a no-nonsense, curt way, but that was because I had hoped that it would be a little jarring to him and that he would come out of his joyless place.
I offered to speak to him in a PM, and also asked if I could pray for him with no reply to either.
I typed that if he was speaking to me about being arrogant, etc., that I did not mean that, I don't think I have that spirit, and I regretted it.
He may be the nicest guy in the world, I don't know, but I think he needs a little more self respect, and I said it, not from the spirit of brutality, but as a fellow Christian hoping to be of help, even if some may think otherwise.
You may ask who am I to do that? Your right maybe... but you could be wrong. The bible says we are our brothers keeper. Maybe I was in error to do that publicly, as I am not personally adverse to him, without really knowing him. I admit that is a possibility.

Remember "I may be nuts but not totally nuts"?

Same deal. I do make up my mind about people but over a long period of time. You tend to make up your mind about people too soon, and then later on figure out you were wrong.

Consider that in this situation too.

I may be nuts, but I'm not totally nuts.

 

[sharkwhales]

I'm glad that at least you will admit it... you don't believe the bible.

That's such a tired, narrow-minded tactic, centuries old.

The pharisees would say you don't believe the Torah... because you believe in Christ by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

I also believe in the persons of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit -- scriptures by themselves are useless without a relationship to them, by the heart, to guide you through them. Without God the bible is just another book, you have to know God to know the book.

If you feel like Paul is just expressing his opinion, the verse below should clarify God's stance on the issue. Don't hate me because of what God said in the bible, just believe your bible.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The verse you quote cites the law, which Paul treated situationally. Do you keep the whole Mosaic law? Sometimes the things which were good under Mosaic Law are still good for us now, but we are not under Moses, we are under Christ. Paul may have agreed with the law in that situation, but his agreement doesn't put us under the law.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:1-4)

It's almost as if you're trying to take Paul's words and make a Christian version of Mosaic law... a Pauline law.

 

[coby]

I said 'border line". But yeah, that is close to the actual description. I thought his "feet" post was in appropriate. I read the post by SBG saying that this was a old poster who was writing unbecoming PM's. He said in a post responding to me "easy for someone like you", which I have no idea what he meant, and I asked him to explain it and he didn't. I told him his posts seemed to indicate he was without the joy of Christ, and that he may lack a healthy amount of self confidence. He was taking the thread way off the main subject, after repeated requests to please get back on subject. I pointed out and implied that that while I was sensitive to his issues, there was a lot to be thankful for.
I said what I did about him having a altered perspective, believe or not, from love. Maybe I said it in a no-nonsense, curt way, but that was because I had hoped that it would be a little jarring to him and that he would come out of his joyless place.
I offered to speak to him in a PM, and also asked if I could pray for him with no reply to either.
I typed that if he was speaking to me about being arrogant, etc., that I did not mean that, I don't think I have that spirit, and I regretted it.
He may be the nicest guy in the world, I don't know, but I think he needs a little more self respect, and I said it, not from the spirit of brutality, but as a fellow Christian hoping to be of help, even if some may think otherwise.
You may ask who am I to do that? Your right maybe... but you could be wrong. The bible says we are our brothers keeper. Maybe I was in error to do that publicly, as I am not personally adverse to him, without really knowing him. I admit that is a possibility.

Oh but I wasn't quoting you. You meant it well. No nonsense approach doesn't really work though when I feel like that. A hug works better.

Btw I had a hug ministry in church for women. Is that allowed? I didn't say a word and it would be weird if my ex would hug them. He could hug the guys.

 

[JosephsDreams]

I have a question. If I believe woman should be allowed to pastor, does that mean I am of another faith? Someone contacted me off thread and told me that and I am kind of shocked. I did not know this could get so crazy. Wow !
I have never had anyone tell me I am "of another faith' because of a disagreement on a biblical issue.
It is not as if I am saying that Jesus is someone different then who we know Him as.

 

[JesusIsAll]

As mentioned before, there was an instance here sometime ago, a testimony of a small rural church pastored by a woman, the community having no man to preach, though having prayed for a preacher. (Spiritual growth and the Lord's working in this congregation also testified to.)

Those of you absolutely opposed to a woman teaching, under any circumstance one would have to suspect, and just to clarify what you think, do you believe that church should be shuttered, disbanded? Or put it this way, is having no church at all better, if there's no man to officiate? Just very interested in seeing the verdict from any here who appear intransigent.

 

[Demi777]

[h=1]Romans 16King James Version (KJV)[/h]16 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.
22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.
23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[sharkwhales]

Paul is speaking in the context of the situation and the times of the culture.
It is not a contradiction to propose that woman pastors are something the word validates. In fact, it is a confirmation of the spirit that dwells within us that God is a God of equality, not of domination.
I am of the firm opinion that if Paul had a spirit of equality and encouragement and humility, and if he were living here today, he would approve of woman pastors.

I disagree with the human notion of equality, it's superficial modern ethics. Our worth isn't measured by our worldly status or bodies, but that doesn't mean we are all equal. God doesn't look at the outward appearance but he does look at our hearts.

God definitely exercises authority over us and uses Hierarchies that he created to teach us about it so that we may use it as well. God exercises dominion over the world, the future, and over our spiritual enemies. This dominion is exercised over us and through us and we should be grateful for it, not 'too enlightened' for god's way of doing things.

The notion that we must all be equal in order to be fairly valued is false. The notion that our value is measured by our earthly role of being man, woman, of whatever race or label, is false. Those things are just the context in which our true value is expressed -- how we serve God and relate to God wherever and whoever we are. So when men had the position of pastor to themselves it didn't make them better than women -- and women don't need to 'acquire' the role to make themselves 'equal' to men. The role does not determine our value before God. The value we have to the world, to our corporation or to our church, is not our value to God -- and we shouldn't pretend the world or corporation or church is the foundation of our identity. That is giving those things, a place that only God should have.

Before we are a man, or a woman, or a spouse, or an intern or a CEO or a choir singer or a megachurch leader, we are a spirit created by God to relate to God. None of those other positions will satisfy our need to be that with God.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I have a question. If I believe woman should be allowed to pastor, does that mean I am of another faith? Someone contacted me off thread and told me that and I am kind of shocked. I did not know this could get so crazy. Wow !
I have never had anyone tell me I am "of another faith' because of a disagreement on a biblical issue.
It is not as if I am saying that Jesus is someone different then who we know Him as.

If your faith is in Jesus Christ, you believe and accept the gospel, which you clearly do, from all I've seen, I'd take such a comment less seriously than a cartoon. It's actually a rather devilish thing to say, accusatory. I'd wonder if such a person doesn't belong on ignore. I don't know who you're referring to, but there are some here doing the devil's work, always stirring a pot of doubt, of one sort or another, their job description more like tare.

 

[JosephsDreams]

Oh but I wasn't quoting you. You meant it well. No nonsense approach doesn't really work though when I feel like that. A hug works better.

Btw I had a hug ministry in church for women. Is that allowed? I didn't say a word and it would be weird if my ex would hug them. He could hug the guys.

I am with you. I like hugs, and kind words, and sensitivity, etc. I am sensitive and my dad being a yeller and screamer (he didn't hit us, he didn't need to, he should have been a opera singer) and so cold toward me that I don't respond well to abrupt words, not usually anyway. But I also know that sometimes it is called for. That what I was trying to accomplish man to man was to make him see that he need not be so down on himself. He kept saying woman never look at him, or find him attractive, again and again. I was trying to urge him to have some more self confidence as a man, in his masculinity. And I say if he is, and I don't doubt he is, a Christian, then he just needs to hang with Christian woman, because frankly, there is nothing more appealing to me then a woman who is on her knees praying. And I think he would he needs to know that the same probably goes for a Christian woman as she sees a man. So I hope he builds up his self confidence, and knows that the woman who does not give him the time of day is a woman that God does not want him with anyway. So like I said, I admit, maybe I came on a little to strong, but it was with, I think, a proper spirit.

 

[sharkwhales]

So are you saying that Paul was either mistaken or lied when he wrote:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And what you are saying is that you don't believe all of the Bible?

I don't believe Paul thought his letter to Timothy was scripture. If he did, then he would have to believe that everything Holy Spirit inspired is scripture -- which would mean that everyone writing under the Holy Spirit, from then to now, has been writing more scripture.

In any case it is completely possible to misuse scripture and use it under a different spirit than the Spirit it was inspired by. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus -- the scripture did not prevent Satan from using it in the wrong spirit.

I do not believe your application of this scripture is from the Holy Spirit. In fact I believe that the terms 'Bible' 'biblical' 'scripture' are sometimes used as a way to attribute authority to the object so that people don't have to submit to the Holy Spirit when they use those objects.

When people emphasize a book more than the God that made it all happen, they misrepresent both.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Sharwales and Jesus is all, I have enjoyed your posts. You bring fresh air!

Jd, I believe that person who contacted you and said you were of a different faith was right. You ARE of a different faith and a different Spirit than him/her!

 

[AuntieAnt]

i have m&ms now.

i'm preaching for youth service in a month.

for easter services, the music team vocals take turns leading songs.

*eats m&ms*

My beloved son has been following Christ Jesus since he was three years old. The Lord called him and has used him to serve most of his life. He has never turned away (all praise, honor & glory to God!) though he was afflicted with terrible trials like Job. The world tried to snatch him away as it will do, but my son's heart never was overcome by it. God has held tightly to him and founded his feet on truth. He has a gift of godly compassion, knowledge, and music. Those are the areas God seems to glorify Himself through the most in his life. My son has encouraged me and other family members too many times to count, as well as pastors, friends and even strangers in the street. And he will be the first to tell you it's the Holy Spirit and not of himself.

My son is no fool. He is convinced that dating around trying to find a woman is not wise. He waited and prayed for years for a wife. The few times he has dated he broke it off as soon as it was apparent it wouldn't lead to marriage. He wasn't looking for a girlfriend. He was waiting on Christ alone to give him a precious wife.

Since he met Melita his countenance changed. His joy increased 100 times over! His health improved and his walk with God got even lighter. My son told me that all the troubles he endured in his life were worth it if it meant meeting Melita and having her in his life. I can't tell you how great the praises in my heart to God to witness my son & Melita's relationship.

All this to say.... if Melita says she's called to teach, preach, minister, encourage, sing, counsel, guide, disciple, or serve in whatever capacity the Lord urges her to do by His Spirit, I believe Christ for her. And any objections here are in vain.

 

[Demi777]

Am I the only one that is surprised that this thread is still goin on and on and on

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don't believe Paul thought his letter to Timothy was scripture. If he did, then he would have to believe that everything Holy Spirit inspired is scripture -- which would mean that everyone writing under the Holy Spirit, from then to now, has been writing more scripture.

In any case it is completely possible to misuse scripture and use it under a different spirit than the Spirit it was inspired by. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus -- the scripture did not prevent Satan from using it in the wrong spirit.

I do not believe your application of this scripture is from the Holy Spirit. In fact I believe that the terms 'Bible' 'biblical' 'scripture' are sometimes used as a way to attribute authority to the object so that people don't have to submit to the Holy Spirit when they use those objects.

When people emphasize a book more than the God that made it all happen, they misrepresent both.

You are a man very, very brave in the Spirit!

 

[CS1]

I have a question. If I believe woman should be allowed to pastor, does that mean I am of another faith? Someone contacted me off thread and told me that and I am kind of shocked. I did not know this could get so crazy. Wow !
I have never had anyone tell me I am "of another faith' because of a disagreement on a biblical issue.
It is not as if I am saying that Jesus is someone different then who we know Him as.

well JosephsDream if that all they say your doing good. any topic you nor I have to agree but we should respect the persons opinion. in the area of essentials of the faith there is no compromise. The sad thing is there are those here who will attack you because you have not lined up with their benevolence...... This to shall pass. I will tell you that I could be wrong you need to study it for yourself. that is something you will not hear from many here that they could be wrong The Word of God is always right. Trust HIM.

 

[AuntieAnt]

I don't believe Paul thought his letter to Timothy was scripture. If he did, then he would have to believe that everything Holy Spirit inspired is scripture -- which would mean that everyone writing under the Holy Spirit, from then to now, has been writing more scripture.

In any case it is completely possible to misuse scripture and use it under a different spirit than the Spirit it was inspired by. Satan quoted scripture to Jesus -- the scripture did not prevent Satan from using it in the wrong spirit.

I do not believe your application of this scripture is from the Holy Spirit. In fact I believe that the terms 'Bible' 'biblical' 'scripture' are sometimes used as a way to attribute authority to the object so that people don't have to submit to the Holy Spirit when they use those objects.

When people emphasize a book more than the God that made it all happen, they misrepresent both.

Truth! Glory to God!!!