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he did not use the word Babble in matt 6:5-8 states
":5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
This is how the heathens/ hypocrites prayed NOT the Believer in Christ or how those with Spiritual gift are to Pray. Jesus was also addressing what was being done for mans approval instead of seeking God.
Acts 2: 1 " [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.".[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] 120 Praying out Loud and it was of God and not babbling and the tongues there was not even stated if there was an interpretation .
[/FONT] The bible tells us there are many kinds of prayer
not just those in tongues 1tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1cor 14:14
1thess 5:17
Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
J
jaybird88
Guest
many bibles translate this as babble
GNV and NIV both use babble
7 Also when ye pray, use no vain repetitions as the Heathen: for they think to be heard for their much babbling.
the word in question is battalogeó
Strong's Concordance battalogeó: to stammer
Short Definition: I chatter, utter empty words. Definition: I chatter, am long-winded, utter empty words, stammer, repeat.
chatter, stammer both sound like babble to me
he did not use the word Babble in matt 6:5-8 states
":5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
This is how the heathens/ hypocrites prayed NOT the Believer in Christ or how those with Spiritual gift are to Pray. Jesus was also addressing what was being done for mans approval instead of seeking God.
Acts 2: 1 " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.".
120 Praying out Loud and it was of God and not babbling and the tongues there was not even stated if there was an interpretation .
The bible tells us there are many kinds of prayer
1tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1cor 14:14
1thess 5:17
Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
[/QUOte
in our german bible the word is used: "geplapper" and this means babbling, meaningless words.
I do not know if one syllable discredits what is known as Tongues. But I too speak more than one language and I do know that one word can have more than one meaning. That being said I cannot interject my Human reasoning into the spiritual workings of God. The Tongue without Interpretation the person is told to be silent. What is interpreted has to do three things 1. Comfort, 2. Edify, and 3. Line up with the Word of God. man did write the bible
please tell me what is false about the scripture ?
here another that is false too 2Pet 1:21 " For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holymenof God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
it is not my claim but the Bible tells us that man wrote Gods word as God gave it to them.
The Bible is the word of God and having it without the Holy Spirit teaching what it meaning is for correct application as John chapters 14 and 16 tells us Jesus speaking on the very topic. The Gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift from the Holy Spirit are scriptural which we find in John 14, 16 and 1 cor 12, 13, 14.
I understand the issue with abuse but that is something that has been happening from the standing up of the church in the writing of the Epistles today. Also I respect your opinion but this too is not biblical your point here:
" Besides, even if no one anywhere ever spoke in tongues again, would it really be a loss to the church? I don't think so, because as long as we have the Bible, we have all we need to really learn about not only who God is, but his expectations for us, and all the theology we will ever need.
If the church never spoke in tongues again would it be a loss to the church ? All Gift given by the Holy Spirit are given for a reason even if men do not think so. Yes it would be a loss of any gift God has given us.
Tongues: The most Pentecostal/charismatic movement teaches, that speaking in tongues is a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.
The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:
Acts 2: as a fulfillment (partly) from Joel 3 as proof for the Jews
Acts 10: as proof for Jews and the gentiles that the gospel is also for gentiles
Acts 19: as proof for the disciples of John the Baptist, that Jesus is the Messiah. (in this time the church in Corinth already exists)
If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.
Some Pentecostals/charismatics teaches that the baptizing with the Holy spirit is a second event for a believer and the sign for that is speaking in tongues. And call it: full with the spirit.
My question is: what is meant with full of the spirit for a believer? When he lives holy? Without sinning?
According this doctrine we can only find Christians which are have the fullness of the spirit in Pentecostal churches and among charismatics.
But this doctrine has no biblical foundation! If yes please show me.
And if you go through the first 14 chapters of the 1. Letter to the Corinthians you find many points which proof that the believers in the church are lacking to be holy in sense of living a holy live. And this you can find also in the last verses from chapter 12 in 2. Letter to the Corinthians.
But this doctrines were given from the first Pentecostal teachers in the 1880´s and then from 1906 on. How can the Holy Spirit began a revival with such false doctrines and signs?
How it came to a second Pentecost without having a prophecy for that? Joel 3 is only meant for the Jews and the final fulfillment we will have in future.
Hey grace777, I found a talk on tongues by that man whose vid on women teachers you gave in the other thread. He was very sane about the whole thing. He also spoke very knowledgeably about the matter because he had come from a background of seeing it abused more than working as it SHOULD work. I also listened to what the other man, Prince, said about it and they were in disagreement over one thing. Prince said it ALWAYS says in the bible that after people received the Holy Spirit the evidence was ALWAYS that they spoke in tongues. That's not true. Sometimes it just talks about joy and praise and worshipping.
There are a lot of problems surrounding tongues.
1. It has been so abused that the people who have been in the madness of the abuse of it just throw it out altogether.
2. It isn't given to everyone so pushing people to move in a gift they haven't received or teaching that they just aren't open enough to receiving the gift is bad teaching, in my opinion. (I received the Holy Spirit in what, for me, was a stupendous and life shaking way and I have never spoke in tongues, not then, and not now over 9 years later. I don't need to do it. If He'd wanted me to do it, I'm sure I would have. He has definitely given me some other gifts and in some odd way, they are just...SUITED to me.)
I guess those are the two biggest things I see.I would NEVER tell someone that they haven't received the same exact gifts as I have because they aren't open to them or they're too scared to receive His gifts. I would never try to force someone else to walk in a gift of mine. I would more help them to try to understand the particular gift they HAD been given. And if that particular gift was found to be tongues, I couldn't really help them. The best way for me to help them would be to find the sanest tongues giftee I could find and send them to that person.
It does not hurt the gift of tongues to acknowledge that there has been severe abuse of it. It HELPS. That man was very helpful to me in his sermon on it.
And I also found the other sermons to be very good and helpful because it was all talked about openly and honestly and biblically and, most importantly, SANELY.
I'm going to go find the mans name and if there's anyone else in here, like me, who doesn't speak in tongues and never has, it might help them as it's helped me, to understand it. I also think it will be a help for those in here who have a background of coming out of a place where it was abused and turned crazy, because he speaks openly about that too.
So I'll be back with his name for any who would like to hear him talk about it.
There are a lot of problems surrounding tongues.
1. It has been so abused that the people who have been in the madness of the abuse of it just throw it out altogether.
2. It isn't given to everyone so pushing people to move in a gift they haven't received or teaching that they just aren't open enough to receiving the gift is bad teaching, in my opinion. (I received the Holy Spirit in what, for me, was a stupendous and life shaking way and I have never spoke in tongues, not then, and not now over 9 years later. I don't need to do it. If He'd wanted me to do it, I'm sure I would have. He has definitely given me some other gifts and in some odd way, they are just...SUITED to me.)
I guess those are the two biggest things I see.I would NEVER tell someone that they haven't received the same exact gifts as I have because they aren't open to them or they're too scared to receive His gifts. I would never try to force someone else to walk in a gift of mine. I would more help them to try to understand the particular gift they HAD been given. And if that particular gift was found to be tongues, I couldn't really help them. The best way for me to help them would be to find the sanest tongues giftee I could find and send them to that person.
It does not hurt the gift of tongues to acknowledge that there has been severe abuse of it. It HELPS. That man was very helpful to me in his sermon on it.
And I also found the other sermons to be very good and helpful because it was all talked about openly and honestly and biblically and, most importantly, SANELY.
I'm going to go find the mans name and if there's anyone else in here, like me, who doesn't speak in tongues and never has, it might help them as it's helped me, to understand it. I also think it will be a help for those in here who have a background of coming out of a place where it was abused and turned crazy, because he speaks openly about that too.
So I'll be back with his name for any who would like to hear him talk about it.
Okay I got his name. It's Greg Boyd and the name of his church is Woodland Hills. All of the past sermons are on his website so you'll have to search for the one where he speaks about tongues. But it should be easy because it's actually a series of sermons on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It was refreshing to hear it spoken about sanely and biblically AND without a bunch of people running around abusing it so you weren't able to hear him.
Hey grace777, I found a talk on tongues by that man whose vid on women teachers you gave in the other thread. He was very sane about the whole thing. He also spoke very knowledgeably about the matter because he had come from a background of seeing it abused more than working as it SHOULD work. I also listened to what the other man, Prince, said about it and they were in disagreement over one thing. Prince said it ALWAYS says in the bible that after people received the Holy Spirit the evidence was ALWAYS that they spoke in tongues. That's not true. Sometimes it just talks about joy and praise and worshipping.
There are a lot of problems surrounding tongues.
1. It has been so abused that the people who have been in the madness of the abuse of it just throw it out altogether.
2. It isn't given to everyone so pushing people to move in a gift they haven't received or teaching that they just aren't open enough to receiving the gift is bad teaching, in my opinion. (I received the Holy Spirit in what, for me, was a stupendous and life shaking way and I have never spoke in tongues, not then, and not now over 9 years later. I don't need to do it. If He'd wanted me to do it, I'm sure I would have. He has definitely given me some other gifts and in some odd way, they are just...SUITED to me.)
I guess those are the two biggest things I see.I would NEVER tell someone that they haven't received the same exact gifts as I have because they aren't open to them or they're too scared to receive His gifts. I would never try to force someone else to walk in a gift of mine. I would more help them to try to understand the particular gift they HAD been given. And if that particular gift was found to be tongues, I couldn't really help them. The best way for me to help them would be to find the sanest tongues giftee I could find and send them to that person.
It does not hurt the gift of tongues to acknowledge that there has been severe abuse of it. It HELPS. That man was very helpful to me in his sermon on it.
And I also found the other sermons to be very good and helpful because it was all talked about openly and honestly and biblically and, most importantly, SANELY.
I'm going to go find the mans name and if there's anyone else in here, like me, who doesn't speak in tongues and never has, it might help them as it's helped me, to understand it. I also think it will be a help for those in here who have a background of coming out of a place where it was abused and turned crazy, because he speaks openly about that too.
So I'll be back with his name for any who would like to hear him talk about it.
Hey!
Thank you. I have heard Greg Boyd talk about tongues before and you are right in that he does give a sane approach to it. I thought his talk would be helpful to others as well. I do not agree with him though in the point that a devotional tongue is not for everyone. I know that if I did not "exercise" by faith then I would never speak in tongues. When I first started I just had a few words...but then the more I spoke..the more "fluent" I became. I do know that the more I speak in tongues..the easier and more flowing it becomes...most likely as when a child is learning to speak.
I have done it so much now that my mind is completely renewed to the truth of speaking in tongues that I don't have a hint of questioning. I WAS however attacked vehemently in my mind when I first started it. The enemy does not want us to speak with our spirit to our Father and speak mysteries to Him from earth.
Perhaps Prince was talking about the "initial infilling" of the Holy Spirit that shows up as speaking in tongues? I don't remember the video about that so I can't comment about it specifically.
I also agree that there has been a lot of abuse around it without a doubt but to me that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the dirty water. Abuse does not equate to non-use.
There has been lot's of people as you say trying to "push" people into it and other things as well. I believe if we are open as you say - the Holy Spirit will reveal what we need at the time He thinks we need to learn new things from Him.
I sincerely believe that if people just said to the Lord and be open to receive from Him...."show me about this tongue business."..and He will show the good things He has for all of us. ( remember that the devotional tongue is different from the one used for the assembly..that is as the Spirit wills.)
I'm glad that the video helped you. You liked the 1 Timothy 2:12 talk about women too?...
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Hey!
Thank you. I have heard Greg Boyd talk about tongues before and you are right in that he does give a sane approach to it. I thought his talk would be helpful to others as well. I do not agree with him though in the point that a devotional tongue is not for everyone. I know that if I did not "exercise" by faith then I would never speak in tongues. When I first started I just had a few words...but then the more I spoke..the more "fluent" I became. I do know that the more I speak in tongues..the easier and more flowing it becomes...most likely as when a child is learning to speak.
I have done it so much now that my mind is completely renewed to the truth of speaking in tongues that I don't have a hint of questioning. I WAS however attacked vehemently in my mind when I first started it. The enemy does not want us to speak with our spirit to our Father and speak mysteries to Him from earth.
Perhaps Prince was talking about the "initial infilling" of the Holy Spirit that shows up as speaking in tongues? I don't remember the video about that so I can't comment about it specifically.
I also agree that there has been a lot of abuse around it without a doubt but to me that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the dirty water. Abuse does not equate to non-use.
There has been lot's of people as you say trying to "push" people into it and other things as well. I believe if we are open as you say - the Holy Spirit will reveal what we need at the time He thinks we need to learn new things from Him.
I sincerely believe that if people just said to the Lord and be open to receive from Him...."show me about this tongue business."..and He will show the good things He has for all of us. ( remember that the devotional tongue is different from the one used for the assembly..that is as the Spirit wills.)
I'm glad that the video helped you. You liked the 1 Timothy 2:12 talk about women too?...
I hear you, but I have had some very...amazing prayer experiences. I can't even explain them but I was lifted up into Him and just sat speechless while being filled to overflowing. I think you might experience that in your speaking in tongues. It just happens differently for me because I never received this gift.
We have talked a lot. I think you have seen me walk in the Spirit and by the Spirit. I don't think you doubt that. And I think you have seen Him manifested in me in different ways.
I used to think that people who did not experience/hear/feel His voice in the same exact way as me had never received the Spirit. Then, a bit later, I began to think, well...I think maybe they HAVE received the Spirit but just have never been FILLED completely. I was wrong. Some people hear His voice differently, and they can explain it quite well, it's just a bit different for them.
Because this gift has been so abused, going back to the way we have been told to know our brothers and sisters is imperative. Speaking in tongues doesn't show who is my brother. FRUIT OF THE SPIRT shows they are my brother. And I don't mean every single moment because we fail often. But I mean fruit in a consistency. Throw out a bad moment or day or few days and see if there is a consistency of showing the fruits we're told to look for and a growing. A consistency and a growing in the fruits of the Spirit. And those are the people I want to recognize as my brothers and those are the people I can feel safe with in talking about or asking questions about my own gifts.
But I think we have to get past this insistence that all of our experiences must be the same, or that they must hear His voice the same exact way, or receive all the same gifts. Unity still comes, even with diversity because it's all the same one Spirit and He unites those of us who abide in Him and walk in Him.
This slight disagreement is fine with me. You are a dear brother and I love you fiercely.
I hear you, but I have had some very...amazing prayer experiences. I can't even explain them but I was lifted up into Him and just sat speechless while being filled to overflowing. I think you might experience that in your speaking in tongues. It just happens differently for me because I never received this gift.
We have talked a lot. I think you have seen me walk in the Spirit and by the Spirit. I don't think you doubt that. And I think you have seen Him manifested in me in different ways.
I used to think that people who did not experience/hear/feel His voice in the same exact way as me had never received the Spirit. Then, a bit later, I began to think, well...I think maybe they HAVE received the Spirit but just have never been FILLED completely. I was wrong. Some people hear His voice differently, and they can explain it quite well, it's just a bit different for them.
Because this gift has been so abused, going back to the way we have been told to know our brothers and sisters is imperative. Speaking in tongues doesn't show who is my brother. FRUIT OF THE SPIRT shows they are my brother. And I don't mean every single moment because we fail often. But I mean fruit in a consistency. Throw out a bad moment or day or few days and see if there is a consistency of showing the fruits we're told to look for and a growing. A consistency and a growing in the fruits of the Spirit. And those are the people I want to recognize as my brothers and those are the people I can feel safe with in talking about or asking questions about my own gifts.
But I think we have to get past this insistence that all of our experiences must be the same, or that they must hear His voice the same exact way, or receive all the same gifts. Unity still comes, even with diversity because it's all the same one Spirit and He unites those of us who abide in Him and walk in Him.
This slight disagreement is fine with me. You are a dear brother and I love you fiercely.
Amen..I agree that it's our love that people will see that is the real fruit.
I too have had experiences where I couldn't say a thing with the Lord. I encourage you that when you are having one of those times with the Lord and you feel like to want to express something to Him....but just can't seem to...if you feel something coming from inside of you...speak it out...
...that will be the Holy Spirit wanting in your spirit wanting to help you speak to your Father and Lord.I do very much love your spirit and cherish your fierce love...thank you my beloved sister!...
Amen..I agree that it's our love that people will see that is the real fruit.
I too have had experiences where I couldn't say a thing with the Lord. I encourage you that when you are having one of those times with the Lord and you feel like to want to express something to Him....but just can't seem to...if you feel something coming from inside of you...speak it out...
I do very much love your spirit and cherish your fierce love...thank you my beloved sister!...
Hey! You know what, that DID happen! It's just that the words that came out of me were the same two repeated over and over and it was in english. It was, FIRE!...holy!...fire....holy! It's all I could say, but I couldn't stop saying it! I had forgotten that! And another time I'm recalling, but all I could keep saying was, OH! OH! OH! And now I'm remembering the very FIRST time I had an experience like that and I did then too repeat over and over, holy, holy, holy, holy! I remembered the experiences I just didn't ever think about how I couldn't refrain from speaking...or think later about how I had to speak. huh...
Okay then, I'm off to finish Acts! Bless you dear!
Great experiences with the Lord!..thank you for sharing them and bless you too!..
Enjoy your Acts..I love Acts..it has the only word for word accounts of the real gospel being preached. .once by Peter and once by Paul.. my goodness how different they are in comparison with some of the stuff we hear about the gospel...
Talk with you later!...
J
jaybird88
Guest
he did not use the word Babble in matt 6:5-8 states
":5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
This is how the heathens/ hypocrites prayed NOT the Believer in Christ or how those with Spiritual gift are to Pray. Jesus was also addressing what was being done for mans approval instead of seeking God.
Acts 2: 1 " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.".
120 Praying out Loud and it was of God and not babbling and the tongues there was not even stated if there was an interpretation .
The bible tells us there are many kinds of prayer
1tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1cor 14:14
1thess 5:17
Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
in our german bible the word is used: "geplapper" and this means babbling, meaningless words.
i agree the bible gives examples of many kinds of prayers. assembly prayers, group prayer, etc. of all the types of prayer Jesus taught on private prayer. He taught the importance of solitude and silence. and he made it very clear when we speak to the Father in our common language the Father can understand us just fine.
IMO Jesus emphasized these things because so many had lost their individual bonds with the Father. Jesus wanted each of us to have our own unique relationship with the Father just as He did. i think its wrong to teach or to suggest to people they need a language of the angels to have this kind of relationship. its not what Jesus taught.
I agree with you on this. But I don't base it on how Jesus didn't explain every single detail of the Holy Spirits ministry and exactly how the Holy Spirit would operate and move in us. I just happen to think, personally, that the prayer closet is a very one on one thing and that, unless someone comes to us with direct questions about it, it's best to let they and God deal solely with one another in this respect.
It's just not something to be meddled with, in my opinion.To let others know about what a blessing tongues are in their own prayer life is good. I ALWAYS want to hear about the personal encounters with God others have if they want to share them! But to try to direct someone elses closet gets a bit touchy with me. (I don't mean I shriek and lose my love and patience and understanding by that either.
) I just mean I get the sense it shouldn't be done.
I agree with you on this. But I don't base it on how Jesus didn't explain every single detail of the Holy Spirits ministry and exactly how the Holy Spirit would operate and move in us. I just happen to think, personally, that the prayer closet is a very one on one thing and that, unless someone comes to us with direct questions about it, it's best to let they and God deal solely with one another in this respect.
To let others know about what a blessing tongues are in their own prayer life is good. I ALWAYS want to hear about the personal encounters with God others have if they want to share them! But to try to direct someone elses closet gets a bit touchy with me. (I don't mean I shriek and lose my love and patience and understanding by that either.
Then this thread is a privat club which excludes all, who dont speak ore pray in tongues. I must say this is not biblical, because even in Pauls days not all christians could pray ore speak in tongues. I realy cant see that the Holy spirit is behind this doctrine. Nobody on this thread can ore want answer what i posted in nr.225.
If i am wrong then please correct me.
Hi wolfwint!
It's just one of those very controversial things. and people can't seem to stay calm when talking about. On either side most times. I think the reason it IS so controversial is BECAUSE it's so abused and counterfeited.
It's obvious that Paul seemed to be saying he prayed in tongues in private. He himself seems to be implying he did, and that when he did, he didn't know what he was saying.
Since I've never received this particular gift, which the bible does list as one of the gifts of the Spirit, I just never really concerned myself with it, though I did crave to understand it better.
Greg Boyds sermon really helped me to understand better.
I've even begun to suspect that maybe some people are given tongues to use in private prayer because it helps to unclutter their mind because I've heard people describe the result of speaking in tongues in private to God and it seems to be the SAME result of when God pulls ME up while in prayer, just a tremendous drowning in His Presence and holiness.
You should listen to Greg Boyd speak about this. He seems to be a modern day Paul on the matter. Very sane and informative.
My church encouraged it when I was born again. I occasionally do it, but not to often. I actually don't view it as the essential Christian. You do, you do, you don't, your no less spiritual then the next guy/ gal. Off subject, but I feel compelled to say that fasting is another issue altogether. That is something Christians must periodically do.
that is your opinion however, nobody here has said you have to speak in tongues or a language of the angels
that is a strawman. The context of what I have seen is the biblical application of Acts chapter 1, 2, 5, 10 , 15, and 19 1 cor chapter 12, 13, 14. The point of relationship with Jesus I agree with you completely. The Biblical accounts of the verses I just posted, I believe are for today.