Tongues

[notuptome]

Good grief.... see my post #127



Does that really matter? The end result is the same, is it not. How many hairs are you willing to split to try to reach your conclusion?

Reminds me of a past president... "well it depends on what the definition of 'is' is....."

At least you are clear on your speculations about what constitutes tongues.

The only record of angels speaking was in human tongues. When the angels announced the birth of Christ they made the heaven ring with the good news. I could go with the idea that angelic tongues may have a certain special tonal quality about them but a wholly different structural language base is really way out there on a limb.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I cannot speak about other religious affiliations, if they are not biblically sound they are not. The tongues spoken in 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 is the gift of languages both of men and of God as it states. What I think it is you are wanting is to show that any tongues that is not a human language is not from God correct ? or do you think it is? The point of tongues which I do not want o go over again as I have back a few threads ago shows that it can be both it really depends on the Holy Spirit on what HE wants to do in the yielding vessel.

So you are still too vague to be of any value. Up until the tower of Babel God allowed one language among all men. Gods judgment upon them was to confuse their languages because of their bent to sin against him. I can conceive that god would in His mercy allow the Holy Spirit to bridge that gap for the purpose of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ under certain necessary conditions. I cannot see any purpose or value in God creating a secret language of unknowable tongues for edification of believers or glorification of His name.

I still come away from the conversation with nothing biblical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Angela53510]

I left Pentecostal/charismatic churches after 15 years of being in them. I went there as a new Christian, because I didn't know any better. And it seemed exciting!

I left, because I realized 99% of what I was hearing was utter nonsense. Same with the prophecy. Now, I am not saying that God will not use people to speak in tongues or prophecy, but I am saying they are rare gifts today.

I do believe that God can do as he wants. We cannot put him in a box. But I don't think what is happening in Pentecostal and charismatic churches from God. I believe that, because God gave us his Word. Yet only yesterday, I was looking up a church online that some people I met went to, and the focus was on "a new Word!" What happened to the old Word?

God left us his Word and that is what we need to rely on. Not some kind of babbling!

BUT that being said, and I have told this story before, so bear with me. We knew a man, a Fijian East Indian. God called him as an evangelist. He was speaking at a meeting and he said 4 words in an unknown tongue. Just four!

Well, at the end of the meeting, a man came running up from the back with the napkin from the meal in his hand. He was waving it at the evangelist. He said to the evangelist, "Why didn't you say you spoke Armenian?"

Well, of course the evangelist did not speak Armenian. So he showed him the 4 words, and told him them meant, "Jesus Christ is Lord." I don't know how anyone could disagree with that.

So the evangelist was able to lead the man to the Lord. Then, he led 27 members of his family to the Lord. All because God gave him 4 words in Armenian. I saw the napkin, and the words looked real. (I don't speak Armenian, but I trusted this man, who I had known for years, and seen his ministry)

My thought is that we should rely on the Word of God for all things. But if God gives us 4 words to witness to someone and 28 people get saved, we should not scorn that gift.

 

[CS1]

So you are still too vague to be of any value. Up until the tower of Babel God allowed one language among all men. Gods judgment upon them was to confuse their languages because of their bent to sin against him. I can conceive that god would in His mercy allow the Holy Spirit to bridge that gap for the purpose of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ under certain necessary conditions. I cannot see any purpose or value in God creating a secret language of unknowable tongues for edification of believers or glorification of His name.

I still come away from the conversation with nothing biblical.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

OK so now you are the value -in Chief huh? that is your opinion. again it is not the same context the Tower of Babel in Genesis which was used to divide. The Tongues of Acts1:8 2:1-38/ 1 cor 12, 13, and 14 was used to unify , and edify . I am sorry you leave with nothing biblical:

" So you are still too vague to be of any value. Up until the tower of Babel God allowed one language among all men. Gods judgment upon them was to confuse their languages because of their bent to sin against him. I can conceive that god would in His mercy allow the Holy Spirit to bridge that gap for the purpose of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ under certain necessary conditions. I cannot see any purpose or value in God creating a secret language of unknowable tongues for edification of believers or glorification of His name."

let me see I posted Acts 1:8 Acts 2:1-38 and 1 Cor 12, 13, 14 as biblical ref to read and you posted the above hmmmm.
Brother the reason why you come away with nothing biblical from conversation is because there is nothing biblical in your post right here

you have a blessed day.

 

[CS1]

I left Pentecostal/charismatic churches after 15 years of being in them. I went there as a new Christian, because I didn't know any better. And it seemed exciting!

I left, because I realized 99% of what I was hearing was utter nonsense. Same with the prophecy. Now, I am not saying that God will not use people to speak in tongues or prophecy, but I am saying they are rare gifts today.

I do believe that God can do as he wants. We cannot put him in a box. But I don't think what is happening in Pentecostal and charismatic churches from God. I believe that, because God gave us his Word. Yet only yesterday, I was looking up a church online that some people I met went to, and the focus was on "a new Word!" What happened to the old Word?

God left us his Word and that is what we need to rely on. Not some kind of babbling!

BUT that being said, and I have told this story before, so bear with me. We knew a man, a Fijian East Indian. God called him as an evangelist. He was speaking at a meeting and he said 4 words in an unknown tongue. Just four!

Well, at the end of the meeting, a man came running up from the back with the napkin from the meal in his hand. He was waving it at the evangelist. He said to the evangelist, "Why didn't you say you spoke Armenian?"

Well, of course the evangelist did not speak Armenian. So he showed him the 4 words, and told him them meant, "Jesus Christ is Lord." I don't know how anyone could disagree with that.

So the evangelist was able to lead the man to the Lord. Then, he led 27 members of his family to the Lord. All because God gave him 4 words in Armenian. I saw the napkin, and the words looked real. (I don't speak Armenian, but I trusted this man, who I had known for years, and seen his ministry)

My thought is that we should rely on the Word of God for all things. But if God gives us 4 words to witness to someone and 28 people get saved, we should not scorn that gift.

well that is your opinion, I think it is interesting we like to discredit something that God has done by our own negative experience. I know ,many who would also discredit the bible because man wrote it . I stand on the biblical context not a pentecostal / Charismatic church experience. what is babbling/ and what is Tongues ? because I do not see the word babble used in the Acts account nor in 1cor 12, 13, 14 nor in Gospel Mark 16 .

 

[kohelet]

You are correct when you say that he was downplaying that spiritual gift... he says that very plainly. Prophesy was MUCH more desirable....

Hi hornetguy,

I agree with everything you say - I like your style - but I'd add something to this bit. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets (v. 5). In that case, tongues is on a par with prophecy, because the church is built up as a result.

These are Paul's instructions to the church. He still considers private tongues valuable for the individual - the gift edifies the person doing the speaking (e.g., vv. 4, 15, 18) right?

 

[Grace777x70]

well that is your opinion, I think it is interesting we like to discredit something that God has done by our own negative experience. I know ,many who would also discredit the bible because man wrote it . I stand on the biblical context not a pentecostal / Charismatic church experience. what is babbling/ and what is Tongues ? because I do not see the word babble used in the Acts account nor in 1cor 12, 13, 14 nor in Gospel Mark 16 .

It could be that baby Christians in their prayer devotional language are not "fluent" ( for want of a better word ) and just utter the same word over and over. I have heard that in a few places with some people. I know for myself that when I first received tongues I just said a few words but then I just kept praying by faith and have probably spoken about 15 different languages...and of course not knowing any of them.

The more I spoke...the more the languages became "mature" if I can use that term.....much like a baby when it starts to talk...it's kind of the same thing with using my prayer tongues. Now I can pray for hours in tongues.

It is the Spirit that gives the utterance ..I just do the speaking and singing too...it's a great blessing.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

speak in tongues to each other, for unbelievers, to the Lord. its unclear who he is talking about.

it has to do with all the other post i been making on the subject showing why they dont add up.

and one question i cant get an answer to, whats the purpose of the angel language tongues?
all the other gifts have a purpose, prophesy - see future, tongues - speak to other nations, healing - heal people.
but the angel language makes no sense. its not going to help an unbeliever as they wouldnt understand being as they are an unbeliever, they are not needed for divine revelations, Jesus and the great prophets didnt need them for this. the only one that benefits from them is the one that uses them which would make them a personal prayer language. and this conflicts with what Jesus and paul both taught.

Well . . . 1) actually the gift of holy Spirit is given to every believer, 2) within that ONE gift are nine manifestations, and 3) each have their own profit. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." (1 Cor. 12:7) Prophesy is not just a telling of the future but is a message "unto men for edification". (14:3) Tongues with interpretation in the church does the same - edification. (14:5) When a believer speaks in tongues to himself; it edifies the one speaking - builds one up in his Spirit. (there is no scripture saying tongues is to speak to other nations) Speaking in tongues is praise to God, it is speaking the mighty works of God, and it is worshipping God in Spirit. (God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.) I don't know much about the "angelic language" - but it must be possible or God wouldn't have put this in his word: Paul speaking: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing. (13:1) The more you operate the manifestation of tongues - which builds up your Spirit (inner man); the more you will recognize a message of knowledge and a message of wisdom, discerning of Spirits - when to pray for others, for a miracle, for a gift of healing. God says that tongues with interpretation edifies the church . . . prophecy and tongues with interpretation are closely related. The OT believers - God placed his Spirit upon them - when he did they prophesied, they received revelation (message of knowledge, message of wisdom) concerning situations they were in - speaking in tongues, and tongues with interpretation are new and only to the church . . . because now we are "born" of the Spirit, a new creation is actually created in us and with this new creation God gave a new language.

the only one that benefits from them is the one that uses them which would make them a personal prayer language. and this conflicts with what Jesus and paul both taught. . . I may not understand what you mean here but here is what Paul said: "He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself" . . . so how is that against what Paul taught? Jesus did tell us about the Comforter (which is the holy Spirit) and how the Comforter (which is the holy Spirit) would lead us into all truth . . . And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but you know him; for he dwell with you and shall be in you. . . Jesus also said - I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot hear them now. -

I would just like to say that I am not arguing with you - God gave you a gift - the gift of holy Spirit - you don't have to operate any of the manifestations that come with that gift . . . but there is profit in utilizing all that He has given.

 

[CS1]

Well . . . 1) actually the gift of holy Spirit is given to every believer, 2) within that ONE gift are nine manifestations, and 3) each have their own profit. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." (1 Cor. 12:7) Prophesy is not just a telling of the future but is a message "unto men for edification". (14:3) Tongues with interpretation in the church does the same - edification. (14:5) When a believer speaks in tongues to himself; it edifies the one speaking - builds one up in his Spirit. (there is no scripture saying tongues is to speak to other nations) Speaking in tongues is praise to God, it is speaking the mighty works of God, and it is worshipping God in Spirit. (God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.) I don't know much about the "angelic language" - but it must be possible or God wouldn't have put this in his word: Paul speaking: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing. (13:1) The more you operate the manifestation of tongues - which builds up your Spirit (inner man); the more you will recognize a message of knowledge and a message of wisdom, discerning of Spirits - when to pray for others, for a miracle, for a gift of healing. God says that tongues with interpretation edifies the church . . . prophecy and tongues with interpretation are closely related. The OT believers - God placed his Spirit upon them - when he did they prophesied, they received revelation (message of knowledge, message of wisdom) concerning situations they were in - speaking in tongues, and tongues with interpretation are new and only to the church . . . because now we are "born" of the Spirit, a new creation is actually created in us and with this new creation God gave a new language.

the only one that benefits from them is the one that uses them which would make them a personal prayer language. and this conflicts with what Jesus and paul both taught. . . I may not understand what you mean here but here is what Paul said: "He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself" . . . so how is that against what Paul taught? Jesus did tell us about the Comforter (which is the holy Spirit) and how the Comforter (which is the holy Spirit) would lead us into all truth . . . And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but you know him; for he dwell with you and shall be in you. . . Jesus also said - I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot hear them now. -

I would just like to say that I am not arguing with you - God gave you a gift - the gift of holy Spirit - you don't have to operate any of the manifestations that come with that gift . . . but there is profit in utilizing all that He has given.

the only thing I would say it is the context of 1cor 12, 13, 14 the " Gift of the Holy Spirit" distributed BY the Holy Spirit for the betterment of the whole body.

 

[kohelet]

Brother, what about 1. Cor. 13,8? When is the time for that? I suppose this question is very controvers in christianity.

Tach Wolf,

The question is a controversial one, yes. I suppose you're asking when prophecies will pass away and tongues will cease, etc. V. 12 gives us a clue. Unless we know fully now, even as we are fully known by the Lord and unless we no longer see through a mirror, dimly, but see Jesus face to face, we can assume that these gifts haven't ended.

 

[notuptome]

OK so now you are the value -in Chief huh? that is your opinion. again it is not the same context the Tower of Babel in Genesis which was used to divide. The Tongues of Acts1:8 2:1-38/ 1 cor 12, 13, and 14 was used to unify , and edify . I am sorry you leave with nothing biblical:

Wait a minute. Paul was not praising the church at Corinth over tongues. I cannot imagine how you see what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 12-14 as edification and unity. the whole problem was disorder and division over who would speak.

Don't dismiss Babel as it is the first reference in the bible to languages. Relative to a Jewish audience the context is extremely important to understanding what is going on.

let me see I posted Acts 1:8 Acts 2:1-38 and 1 Cor 12, 13, 14 as biblical ref to read and you posted the above hmmmm.
Brother the reason why you come away with nothing biblical from conversation is because there is nothing biblical in your post right here

you have a blessed day.

You posted scripture but did not relate it to what is going on in the church. Do tongues in the church today resemble Acts 1:8 or Acts 2:1-38? What of the other occurrences in Acts? Anything like that in the modern church?

The reason I come away with nothing biblical is because the activity lacks any biblical basis. Tongues are for Jews not Gentiles. Tongues ended in 1 Cor 13:8. God is still not the author of confusion. The Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the word of God. When Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts there were Jews present and Paul testified to the fact in Jerusalem before James and the other apostles.

I try to find as much latitude as I can on this subject but really I find no one able to tie anything they do back to the bible. Help me out here and give me something tangible from a biblical perspective. Don't just cite three chapters without appropriate application. I assure you I read the same chapters and come away with a completely different understanding and find more scriptures throughout the bible to support the context. Verses in Isaiah, Joel and from the words of Jesus Himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

the only thing I would say it is the context of 1cor 12, 13, 14 the " Gift of the Holy Spirit" distributed BY the Holy Spirit for the betterment of the whole body.

And God brings the rain on the good and the evil alike.

Joel teaches us that the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh but only the daughters and sons of Israel will dream dreams and prophecy.

There is a difference between the gift of the Holy Spirit and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Tach Wolf,

The question is a controversial one, yes. I suppose you're asking when prophecies will pass away and tongues will cease, etc. V. 12 gives us a clue. Unless we know fully now, even as we are fully known by the Lord and unless we no longer see through a mirror, dimly, but see Jesus face to face, we can assume that these gifts haven't ended.

Look into the NT and see the face of Jesus and see yourself as He sees you. The mystery of the OT is made manifest in the NT.

Revelation of Gods word is complete. No new revelation to be added to the bible. The Holy Spirit now leads into all the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

Hi hornetguy,

I agree with everything you say - I like your style - but I'd add something to this bit. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets (v. 5). In that case, tongues is on a par with prophecy, because the church is built up as a result.

These are Paul's instructions to the church. He still considers private tongues valuable for the individual - the gift edifies the person doing the speaking (e.g., vv. 4, 15, 18) right?

Absolutely correct. I didn't make that very clear.

To clarify my position somewhat.... I don't speak in tongues. Never have. Might not ever... that's up to the Spirit. I'm not seeking that gift... I'd much rather have a gift for knowledge/wisdom, or prophesy...

But, I can also read and understand scripture, with the Spirit's help and insights, and I can understand what Paul was saying in 14 Corinthians....

I have enjoyed this discussion with my brothers and sisters, and will continue to look in to see what is said... but I think I've pretty much stated my position on things a few times... so I'll just lurk a while... blessings to all. Love you all....

 

[CS1]

Wait a minute. Paul was not praising the church at Corinth over tongues. I cannot imagine how you see what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 12-14 as edification and unity. the whole problem was disorder and division over who would speak.

Don't dismiss Babel as it is the first reference in the bible to languages. Relative to a Jewish audience the context is extremely important to understanding what is going on.

You posted scripture but did not relate it to what is going on in the church. Do tongues in the church today resemble Acts 1:8 or Acts 2:1-38? What of the other occurrences in Acts? Anything like that in the modern church?

The reason I come away with nothing biblical is because the activity lacks any biblical basis. Tongues are for Jews not Gentiles. Tongues ended in 1 Cor 13:8. God is still not the author of confusion. The Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the word of God. When Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts there were Jews present and Paul testified to the fact in Jerusalem before James and the other apostles.

I try to find as much latitude as I can on this subject but really I find no one able to tie anything they do back to the bible. Help me out here and give me something tangible from a biblical perspective. Don't just cite three chapters without appropriate application. I assure you I read the same chapters and come away with a completely different understanding and find more scriptures throughout the bible to support the context. Verses in Isaiah, Joel and from the words of Jesus Himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Again that is your opinion 1cor 12, 13, 14 was defined very clearly. 1cor 13:8 doesn't say that tongues has ended sorry it is not there
:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

Verse 8 is incomplete without the upper and lower verses of the whole passage . You say don't just cite three chapter? really? respectfully, you are only quoting three verses . it is not important to me that you come away with what I believe. What is important is that chapters in 1cor 12, 13, 14, or Acts 1 and 2 or Acts chapter 10, chapter 15: 8 Acts 19 in ref to Gentiles and the gift of the Holy Spirit given to those who are not jews.
When you ask do tongues in the early church ressemble tongues back then? I do not know I was not here 2000 years ago.
But what is, the context is. to the gift spoken by our Lord in Mark 16, and other gospels, the book of Acts repeatedly Taught to the gentile church 1 cor 12, 13, 14 . and other location to If tongues is the issue then look at Prophecy which happened about as much with the New Testament Church as Tongues did. If you want to pull genesis out of context to explain tongues in the New Testament writings you go right ahead. But the Prophet Joel spoke about the Pouring out of God Spirit on man and women.

what happen at babble was clear and it achieved it's objective as God ordained it to do. And the Gift of Tongues as recorded many times in ,many areas of the Bible which was taught by Paul as the Holy Spirit gave it to him.

"

 

[Gr8grace]

Brother, what about 1. Cor. 13,8? When is the time for that? I suppose this question is very controvers in christianity.

The love complex(agape) for the Church will never pass away. It is utilized to this day to solve problems and will never fail to accomplish its purposes.

prophecies and knowledge~~Some People where given the gift of knowing the missing parts of the Canon since it wasn't complete yet. They passed away in 96AD when the canon was complete. 1 Cor 13:9

Tongues~~They were a sign and a warning for the Jews of their impending 5th cycle of discipline. In 70AD tongues ceased when Israel was dispersed and Jerusalem fell.

I think it is critical to study out why Paul used "cease." I believe we are witnessing, in todays world, why Paul said ," Tongues will cease."

The order for the Church in today's world is bible doctrine. We need not go outside of Gods word for our answers and solutions to living the Christian way of life.

And today we have emotions and experience's trumping bible doctrine.

 

[CS1]

The love complex(agape) for the Church will never pass away. It is utilized to this day to solve problems and will never fail to accomplish its purposes.

prophecies and knowledge~~Some People where given the gift of knowing the missing parts of the Canon since it wasn't complete yet. They passed away in 96AD when the canon was complete. 1 Cor 13:9

Tongues~~They were a sign and a warning for the Jews of their impending 5th cycle of discipline. In 70AD tongues ceased when Israel was dispersed and Jerusalem fell.

I think it is critical to study out why Paul used "cease." I believe we are witnessing, in todays world, why Paul said ," Tongues will cease."

The order for the Church in today's world is bible doctrine. We need not go outside of Gods word for our answers and solutions to living the Christian way of life.

And today we have emotions and experience's trumping bible doctrine.

that is a good point Gr8grace,

when the verses says when that which is Perfect has come I have always seen that as when Jesus returned. Becuase this flesh needs the Holy Spirit everyday.

 

[Gr8grace]

Wait a minute. Paul was not praising the church at Corinth over tongues. I cannot imagine how you see what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 12-14 as edification and unity. the whole problem was disorder and division over who would speak.

Don't dismiss Babel as it is the first reference in the bible to languages. Relative to a Jewish audience the context is extremely important to understanding what is going on.

You posted scripture but did not relate it to what is going on in the church. Do tongues in the church today resemble Acts 1:8 or Acts 2:1-38? What of the other occurrences in Acts? Anything like that in the modern church?

The reason I come away with nothing biblical is because the activity lacks any biblical basis. Tongues are for Jews not Gentiles. Tongues ended in 1 Cor 13:8. God is still not the author of confusion. The Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the word of God. When Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts there were Jews present and Paul testified to the fact in Jerusalem before James and the other apostles.

I try to find as much latitude as I can on this subject but really I find no one able to tie anything they do back to the bible. Help me out here and give me something tangible from a biblical perspective. Don't just cite three chapters without appropriate application. I assure you I read the same chapters and come away with a completely different understanding and find more scriptures throughout the bible to support the context. Verses in Isaiah, Joel and from the words of Jesus Himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hello Roger. Have you happened to look into the 5 cycles of discipline that God used to warn Israel?

I see that 5th Cycle implemented in 70 ad. and that is when tongues ceased.

Do you see it different? Would much appreciate your input for further study.

 

[Gr8grace]

that is a good point Gr8grace,

when the verses says when that which is Perfect has come I have always seen that as when Jesus returned. Becuase this flesh needs the Holy Spirit everyday.

Gods Word isn't perfect?

 

[Gr8grace]

Gods Word isn't perfect?

Angela, If you would please?

Why is "perfect" in the neuter gender? Can we squeeze the person of Jesus Christ into being the "perfect" in 1 Cor 13:10?