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D
So, this is about one dumb church? And, yeah, not "dumb" because you had good friendships there and there was a time it was good, but it got dumb! (Just like that church I just talked about. That church went from God's word to "don't even bother talking about God on Sunday mornings American upper middle class values" church. "Dumb." That kind of dumb.
To me it is as easy as the resolution to the issue of if women should be pastors. If you think they should, then join a church that agrees. If you think they shouldn't, then join that kind of church. You want a church that doesn't look down on you for a divorce. Join that kind of church and avoid the type you were in.
Excuse me, but I think I remember who you are, except I might have you confused with someone else. Are you the one whose husband left you for some kind of stupid game with trading cards? He became so addicted to the game he mentally left you without ever bothering to physically leave you? If that's not you, oops. Sorry about that. If it is you, then yeah, even in my staunchly conservative (reformed, albeit not Dutch Reformed, but our roots go back there lol) denomination, that's grounds for divorce.
The only grounds -- desertion/adultery. We consider adultery as a wider sin than sex apart from spouse. It is desertion -- physically or mentally, just like having sex with someone not your spouse is desertion. Wide enough that it even includes, "I didn't want the marriage to end, but my spouse did, so I couldn't get what I wanted." That's desertion! That's adultery! Leaving your spouse for another, even if the "another" isn't human.
And yet we are against divorce. It really shouldn't happen, and yet, we cannot force another human being to do what "should" happen. The very reason Jesus gives that exception to the rule.
As for dumping the wife into a mental institution being a no-no. Ummm, my husband did. (Well, he didn't dump. He took her there.) She had a double-edged razor blade dipped in gold as a necklace and wore it all the time. Before she took to wearing it, she'd run at him with a butcher's knife. The only reason she couldn't kill him was he was over a foot taller and more than twice her weight so he could quickly pull the knife out onto the ground and pin her to a wall until she calmed down.
Now you may think, "What did he do before she did that?" Usually, he walked in the door after coming home directly from work. (He says, "I never knew who I was coming home to.")
So one morning he woke up as she loomed over him in the same bed smiling an eerie smile and playing with that razor blade. And she asked him, "Isn't it good to wake up?"
No doubt in his mind she was telling him she had just been considering slitting his throat in his sleep. Then she took the razor balde into the bathroom and locked the door. He broke the door down to stop her from killing herself. The razor blade was next to her wrist.
So, yeah, he committed her. As the attendants wheeled her away, he caught another eerie smile, and he told them, "Watch her. She will probably try to kill your or herself."
They laughed and said, "This sweet little lady?"
So he ran up to her and opened her hand. A bunch of pills fell to the ground. She clutched her throat.
So he ripped back the bathrobe and exposed that same razor blade. Only then did they realize he was serious.
And yet, that's not why he divorced her. And he didn't divorce her a couple years later when she cheated on him. (It was the year after that when she did it again the day before he was to come home because they had reconciled.)
Just because it happened to you, doesn't mean these are rules cover all situations. It happened to you. You were put in a mental institution when you probably shouldn't have been. (Seven weeks tells me you really probably shouldn't have been.) You were divorced. But that doesn't make either a blanket statement for everyone. That's the thing. There are times when the rule has an exception. It's still a rule, just with the exception(s).
You learned English somewhere along the road. Surely you easily remember "I before E except after C," sometime before learning there are even more and more exceptions. Generally speaking the basic rule covers most situations. The exceptions cover the rest.
To me it is as easy as the resolution to the issue of if women should be pastors. If you think they should, then join a church that agrees. If you think they shouldn't, then join that kind of church. You want a church that doesn't look down on you for a divorce. Join that kind of church and avoid the type you were in.
Excuse me, but I think I remember who you are, except I might have you confused with someone else. Are you the one whose husband left you for some kind of stupid game with trading cards? He became so addicted to the game he mentally left you without ever bothering to physically leave you? If that's not you, oops. Sorry about that. If it is you, then yeah, even in my staunchly conservative (reformed, albeit not Dutch Reformed, but our roots go back there lol) denomination, that's grounds for divorce.
The only grounds -- desertion/adultery. We consider adultery as a wider sin than sex apart from spouse. It is desertion -- physically or mentally, just like having sex with someone not your spouse is desertion. Wide enough that it even includes, "I didn't want the marriage to end, but my spouse did, so I couldn't get what I wanted." That's desertion! That's adultery! Leaving your spouse for another, even if the "another" isn't human.
And yet we are against divorce. It really shouldn't happen, and yet, we cannot force another human being to do what "should" happen. The very reason Jesus gives that exception to the rule.
As for dumping the wife into a mental institution being a no-no. Ummm, my husband did. (Well, he didn't dump. He took her there.) She had a double-edged razor blade dipped in gold as a necklace and wore it all the time. Before she took to wearing it, she'd run at him with a butcher's knife. The only reason she couldn't kill him was he was over a foot taller and more than twice her weight so he could quickly pull the knife out onto the ground and pin her to a wall until she calmed down.
Now you may think, "What did he do before she did that?" Usually, he walked in the door after coming home directly from work. (He says, "I never knew who I was coming home to.")
So one morning he woke up as she loomed over him in the same bed smiling an eerie smile and playing with that razor blade. And she asked him, "Isn't it good to wake up?"
No doubt in his mind she was telling him she had just been considering slitting his throat in his sleep. Then she took the razor balde into the bathroom and locked the door. He broke the door down to stop her from killing herself. The razor blade was next to her wrist.
So, yeah, he committed her. As the attendants wheeled her away, he caught another eerie smile, and he told them, "Watch her. She will probably try to kill your or herself."
They laughed and said, "This sweet little lady?"
So he ran up to her and opened her hand. A bunch of pills fell to the ground. She clutched her throat.
So he ripped back the bathrobe and exposed that same razor blade. Only then did they realize he was serious.
And yet, that's not why he divorced her. And he didn't divorce her a couple years later when she cheated on him. (It was the year after that when she did it again the day before he was to come home because they had reconciled.)
Just because it happened to you, doesn't mean these are rules cover all situations. It happened to you. You were put in a mental institution when you probably shouldn't have been. (Seven weeks tells me you really probably shouldn't have been.) You were divorced. But that doesn't make either a blanket statement for everyone. That's the thing. There are times when the rule has an exception. It's still a rule, just with the exception(s).
You learned English somewhere along the road. Surely you easily remember "I before E except after C," sometime before learning there are even more and more exceptions. Generally speaking the basic rule covers most situations. The exceptions cover the rest.
D
Just so you know, for the vast majority of those of us who belong in the not-women-pastor camp, worship leader isn't part of our belief. Now, I know you don't really care as far as what you believe goes, and that's fine. I'm just letting you know that you are a worship leader doesn't even bug the other side of the camp. You're golden, if the position of woman-pastor is thought out to it's logical conclusion, no matter which way it logics out.
The only people it bugs are the women-should-be-seen-not-heard camp. I don't hang around that camp much, because this woman is heard if seen or not.
The only people it bugs are the women-should-be-seen-not-heard camp. I don't hang around that camp much, because this woman is heard if seen or not.
C
The only people it bugs are the women-should-be-seen-not-heard camp. I don't hang around that camp much, because this woman is heard if seen or not.
I write Bible studies today and the number of people who care are probably zero outside of the church.
I've listened to theologians on the radio who say they can't sell their books and they sit in their basement and a run of books can cost $8,000.
King David wasn't allowed to build the temple so he gathered all of the parts so that his son could build it. I can't be a full time missionary because I have family but I can do things that lets someone else be a full time missionary.
There are so many other things that we can do for God that will deliver more rewards than being in front of people because people don't care how much you know until they know you care:
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
I remember being hungry in a poor family and the Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door. They didn't want to help but all they wanted to do is support their organization.
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
So if the greatest gift is love then why would I want to be in front of people all of the time? I'd rather be in the hospital of love helping people:
Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mattew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
We think that these works are the least important because no one will look and give us recognition but they are the most important because if we didn't do them then why should people listen to us and our gospel? Why would people respect the church if they don't help? When we take care of people and love one another then people will start to listen.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Do you know why the devil has us fighting one another? Because the devil doesn't want anyone to be saved.
D
(Closest I could find to an attaboy back-pat.)
Been bugging you for a while, huh? Had to get it out?
No. Not being sarcastic. I honestly get the frustration. And it does build up for a while, before it bursts at the seams.
One problem. When we get like that, (and it is "we," since I've discovered the church we would belong to if we could go to church, to visit my hubby because we aren't members. He was in the hospital for months, now in rehab/nursing home, but is teetering -- being sent back to that hospital for a day or a few days more than once), even when are hearts are for doing something good for others, it's still biting us back. How? Where is our heart really, if we can only see what others aren't doing?
I really really get your frustrations on so many fronts, but how different are we if we take so much time to browbeat others when we could be using that time to help others?
Speaking of which, heads up. It's the 21st century. No one pays $8000 to get their self-published book published anymore. Not only are there ebooks, but for the hold-outs (those who don't do ebooks, like me), there are companies that won't print the book until the sale. I don't know how they do it from a production standpoint, but the press no longer has to print and bind in bulk. No warehousing required anymore. So, if you know the guy trying to save up to print his masterpiece, let him know he doesn't have to wait.
Taking this back to topic again, do you have any problems with a woman worship leader, even if you have problems with women pastors? Seems to me, even as someone who doesn't believe women pastors is a good thing, (again, not to be confused with thinking pastors who are women are missing God/bad/against God/etc.), I think it's cool that God gave Melita the ministry of leading worship. I do think that is God's will (for now. And I only say "for now," knowing God called me to different ministries at different times in my life.)
D
Ah, I see that! She was talking about a Derek and I was talking about a Joseph!
She was recommending a different man. I've never heard of him.
Carry on.
She was recommending a different man. I've never heard of him.
Carry on.
So, I got more than one Prince in my head too. I've even heard of Joseph. Just don't know enough about him to old an intelligent discussion about him. (Probably a good thing, since the feeling I get about him from what I do know isn't a favorable feeling.)