Tongues

[wolfwint]

Tongues what a amazing gift, but what does it prophet you? Is your ministry that the Lord blessed you with so diversified that the gift is needed? Is your prayer life so enhanced or so broken that the gift is needed to edify?
Do you need a sign from God to confirm his promise that the holy spirit dwells in you?
And if this gift of men and angels is evident but no love is found for the brothers and sisters what profit is it? To say that I do have the gift therefore I'm more spiritual . And if I lack this gift I have not the promise?
I believe the Lord will bless you with the tools needed for his good pleasure.
Seek you first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all shall be added onto you.
Little children love one another.

Brother, this is not the thing. It doesen´t matter me what gift soembody has. Thats god´s thing. It is another question. If the pentecostal revivial from 1906 and their teachings from god ore not? If it is from god, than all who deny this teachings are wrong!!!!!!! In the different to the pentecost in which God sent the Holy Spirit in acts, all believers accept this as Gods work. The pentecost revivial in 1906 dividet the christianhood. And people who proofed this, came to the conclusion this is not from god, because the signs you could also find in the spiritism.

 

[jaybird88]

when paul mentions tongues of angels in 1 cor, is this the only reference to tongues as a heavenly language?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Tongues: The most Pentecostal/charismatic movement teaches, that speaking in tongues is a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.
The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:
Acts 2: as a fulfillment (partly) from Joel 3 as proof for the Jews
Acts 10: as proof for Jews and the gentiles that the gospel is also for gentiles
Acts 19: as proof for the disciples of John the Baptist, that Jesus is the Messiah. (in this time the church in Corinth already exists)
If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.

I will try to answer: You are correct that the examples in Acts show that when people accepted Christ as their savior; they were filled with the gift of holy Spirit; the evidence was speaking in tongues . . . the only thing that I would add is that in Acts 19 - the comparison of being baptized by John (water) and being baptized Jesus (living water, i.e. holy Spirit) is shown. I wouldn't say that "this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the holy Spirit" but that speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of one having RECEIVED the gift of holy Spirit. Does that mean that believers who do not speak in tongues have not received the gift of holy Spirit? NO . . . Acts 2:38 says - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit . . . so when someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead - they are saved, baptized in living water, and have received the gift of holy Spirit . . . Period. The question would be - can a gift lie dormant and never be used? or can one use the gift given to them? There ya go . . . For an easy example: I can give someone a light bulb - that light bulb has two manifestations - light and heat . . . but unless it is plugged into an electrical current - that light bulb is just that . . . a light bulb with no power. (I know - pretty limp example!)

Some Pentecostals/charismatics teaches that the baptizing with the Holy spirit is a second event for a believer and the sign for that is speaking in tongues. And call it: full with the spirit.
My question is: what is meant with full of the spirit for a believer? When he lives holy? Without sinning?
According this doctrine we can only find Christians which are have the fullness of the spirit in Pentecostal churches and among charismatics.
But this doctrine has no biblical foundation! If yes please show me.

Being born again of the Spirit = being baptized with holy Spirit = being filled with the Spirit . . . all one and the same.

And if you go through the first 14 chapters of the 1. Letter to the Corinthians you find many points which proof that the believers in the church are lacking to be holy in sense of living a holy live. And this you can find also in the last verses from chapter 12 in 2. Letter to the Corinthians.
But this doctrines were given from the first Pentecostal teachers in the 1880´s and then from 1906 on. How can the Holy Spirit began a revival with such false doctrines and signs?
How it came to a second Pentecost without having a prophecy for that? Joel 3 is only meant for the Jews and the final fulfillment we will have in future.

This last paragraph is a little confusing to me . . . I'm not understanding what it is exactly you are saying.

 

[notuptome]

I will try to answer: You are correct that the examples in Acts show that when people accepted Christ as their savior; they were filled with the gift of holy Spirit; the evidence was speaking in tongues . . . the only thing that I would add is that in Acts 19 - the comparison of being baptized by John (water) and being baptized Jesus (living water, i.e. holy Spirit) is shown. I wouldn't say that "this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the holy Spirit" but that speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of one having RECEIVED the gift of holy Spirit. Does that mean that believers who do not speak in tongues have not received the gift of holy Spirit? NO . . . Acts 2:38 says - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit . . . so when someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead - they are saved, baptized in living water, and have received the gift of holy Spirit . . . Period. The question would be - can a gift lie dormant and never be used? or can one use the gift given to them? There ya go . . . For an easy example: I can give someone a light bulb - that light bulb has two manifestations - light and heat . . . but unless it is plugged into an electrical current - that light bulb is just that . . . a light bulb with no power. (I know - pretty limp example!)

Tongues were present to show as a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were receiving the very same Holy Spirit that the Jews received at Pentecost. Paul confirmed this to the council at Jerusalem with James and the other apostles. In historical context Jews hated Gentiles and wanted nothing to do with them. Peter is an example of not wanting to witness to Gentiles as in Cornelius.

Being born again of the Spirit = being baptized with holy Spirit = being filled with the Spirit . . . all one and the same.

Not quite. Only one baptism but many fillings.

This last paragraph is a little confusing to me . . . I'm not understanding what it is exactly you are saying.

At least you put forth a genuine effort. Many are too unconcerned to try.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wolfwint]

I will try to answer: You are correct that the examples in Acts show that when people accepted Christ as their savior; they were filled with the gift of holy Spirit; the evidence was speaking in tongues . . . the only thing that I would add is that in Acts 19 - the comparison of being baptized by John (water) and being baptized Jesus (living water, i.e. holy Spirit) is shown. I wouldn't say that "this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the holy Spirit" but that speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of one having RECEIVED the gift of holy Spirit. Does that mean that believers who do not speak in tongues have not received the gift of holy Spirit? NO . . . Acts 2:38 says - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit . . . so when someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead - they are saved, baptized in living water, and have received the gift of holy Spirit . . . Period. The question would be - can a gift lie dormant and never be used? or can one use the gift given to them? There ya go . . . For an easy example: I can give someone a light bulb - that light bulb has two manifestations - light and heat . . . but unless it is plugged into an electrical current - that light bulb is just that . . . a light bulb with no power. (I know - pretty limp example!)

Being born again of the Spirit = being baptized with holy Spirit = being filled with the Spirit . . . all one and the same.

This last paragraph is a little confusing to me . . . I'm not understanding what it is exactly you are saying.

Dear peacefullbeliever, thank you for reply.

I will try to answer: You are correct that the examples in Acts show that when people accepted Christ as their savior; they were filled with the gift of holy Spirit; the evidence was speaking in tongues
I meant this examples as unique examples with a special purpose, as i wrote before and not as an example for all believers!
I wouldn't say that "this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the holy Spirit" but that speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of one having RECEIVED the gift of holy Spirit. Does that mean that believers who do not speak in tongues have not received the gift of holy Spirit? NO . . . Acts 2:38 says - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit .

What then is different, if speaking in tongues the outward manifestation of one having received the gift of holy Spirit to what i said? If someone has received the gift of the holy spirit and cant speak in tongues, he has not the holy spirit.
This is a clear fact according the doctrine of pentecostals/charismatics.

Being born again of the Spirit = being baptized with holy Spirit = being filled with the Spirit . . . all one and the same.


If this is the same, where it is written, that a sign of this is speaking in tongues, as the pentecost doctrine teaches?

This last paragraph is a little confusing to me . . . I'm not understanding what it is exactly you are saying.

Well, i met charismatics which used Joel 3 as scripture proof for the charismatic movement

Ok, time to sleep now.
wishing you a happy ressuraction feast of our Lord Jesus

 

[Persuaded]

Speaking in tongues to our heavenly Father and Lord is a great blessing from the God. Paul said in 1 Cor 14:5 that he wished that all of the Corinthians spoke in tongues.

We speak mysteries in the spirit to our Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

Praying in tongues build us up in the Lord. Jude 1:20 and the below verse.

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

Praying in tongues by passes our minds and prays according to our inner man of the heart...the new creation in Christ. We have limited understanding with our minds. Notice that the order is praying with our spirit comes first - then our mind...and we sing too with our spirit and with our mind.

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

When we pray in tongues - we bless the Lord and give thanks well - 1 Cor. 14:6-7

When we pray in tongues we speak of the mighty works of God and give Him glory - Acts 2

Personally I speak and sing in tongues every day! Paul spoke in tongues a lot because he said he spoke in tongues more then they all. 1 Cor. 14:18 Paul also said not to forbid to speak in tongues. 1Cor 14:39

There is a manifestation of the Spirit for the assembly of believers called the gift of tongues which needs to be interpreted ( these occur as the Spirit wills - not us ) but that is not to be confused with the personal devotional tongues available to all believers ( this we can do as we will..see 1 Cor. 14:14-15 ) for praying to their Father and Lord as can be seen in 1 Cor 14:2

I encourage all believers to ask the Lord about this blessing. It's free to all and will help us to grow spiritually as it builds us up in the Lord.

Matt. 6:8
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I don't have to use "tongues". I don't have to say a single word to my Lord.
Why do you?

 

[Grace777x70]

Matt. 6:8
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

I don't have to use "tongues". I don't have to say a single word to my Lord.
Why do you?

So, I guess we throw out all the scriptures that talk about prayer because He already knows what we need? You don't pray for your brothers/sisters in the Lord either because He must know what they need too?..... I pray all the time because it is the will of God!

Are you a Christian?.....have you believed and received Jesus as Lord yet?

I won't bother filling this up with scripture..I'll just leave one.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-20 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Rejoice always;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] pray without ceasing;
[SUP]18[/SUP] in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Do not quench the Spirit;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] do not despise prophetic utterances.

 

[Persuaded]

So, I guess we throw out all the scriptures that talk about prayer because He already knows what we need? You don't pray for your brothers/sisters in the Lord either because He must know what they need too?..... I pray all the time because it is the will of God!

Are you a Christian?.....have you believed and received Jesus as Lord yet?

I won't bother filling this up with scripture..I'll just leave one.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-20 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Rejoice always;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] pray without ceasing;
[SUP]18[/SUP] in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Do not quench the Spirit;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] do not despise prophetic utterances.

Yes, I pray many times every day.
I give thanks daily. I bring the needs of others before my Lord. I pray for this nation. I pray for the members of the church I serve. I pray for those on this form who are so confused.
The point I was trying to make is that it is not the words that I say that is important, It is my heart.
The Lord knows my needs and provides without me asking. I pray that my heart will be what God wants it to be.
One of the best definitions I have evey seen for pray is---
To bring my heart and mind into agreement with my Lord, not to bring my Lord into agreement with me.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes, I pray many times every day.
I give thanks daily. I bring the needs of others before my Lord. I pray for this nation. I pray for the members of the church I serve. I pray for those on this form who are so confused.
The point I was trying to make is that it is not the words that I say that is important, It is my heart.
The Lord knows my needs and provides without me asking. I pray that my heart will be what God wants it to be.
One of the best definitions I have evey seen for pray is---
To bring my heart and mind into agreement with my Lord, not to bring my Lord into agreement with me.

Ok....I understand that then in that context. I always just give thanks for the things He brings as He meets my needs according to His riches in Christ. I rarely pray for anything for myself as I trust He will provide just as He said He would. So all that is left is thanksgiving in that area.

I heard a definition that was good too...."What if we prayed with God instead of to God." IOW to pray according to His heart, His way and His when.....which sounds like the same thing you are saying." Lord give us your heart and teach us to pray with You and Your desires....thank You!"

 

[wolfwint]

Ok....I understand that then in that context. I always just give thanks for the things He brings as He meets my needs according to His riches in Christ. I rarely pray for anything for myself as I trust He will provide just as He said He would. So all that is left is thanksgiving in that area.

I heard a definition that was good too...."What if we prayed with God instead of to God." IOW to pray according to His heart, His way and His when.....which sounds like the same thing you are saying." Lord give us your heart and teach us to pray with You and Your desires....thank You!"

Happy resurrection feast!
If we pray with God we lift yourself to gods level!
If we pray to God we are giving him the honor and glory which he deserves!
We are his children, but we are not God.

 

[Grace777x70]

Happy resurrection feast!
If we pray with God we lift yourself to gods level!
If we pray to God we are giving him the honor and glory which he deserves!
We are his children, but we are not God.

Happy resurrection!

I think you missed the whole purpose of that post....we are not God...He is in us in the Holy Spirit...in our inner man of the heart created in Christ and in righteousness and holiness.

"What if we prayed with God instead of to God." IOW to pray according to His heart, His way and His when..

 

[wolfwint]

Happy resurrection!

I think you missed the whole purpose of that post....we are not God...He is in us in the Holy Spirit...in our inner man of the heart created in Christ and in righteousness and holiness.

"What if we prayed with God instead of to God." IOW to pray according to His heart, His way and His when..

What means IOW?

 

[Grace777x70]

What means IOW?

In other words....

 

[wolfwint]

In other words....

Thank you for explaining! Well I agree to pray according to the will of the father. But: to" pray instead to God to pray with him "is soemthing total different!! Will say iow is stopping worshipping, is stopping give thanks to him, is stopping to tell him our needs!! So far i understand the bible teaches: we pray to god to worship him, to adore him and of course to thanks him and tell him our needs. Maby you should not use this word instead! This praxis i dont find in the Bible.
And also iow this suggests that we are equal with God!
And it sounds that we do know the heart of God. I suppose, that no human beeing knows the heart of God, except he reaveals it to us.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Dear peacefullbeliever, thank you for reply.

I meant this examples as unique examples with a special purpose, as i wrote before and not as an example for all believers!

Your examples were actually unique examples and they did have a purpose - and it was to show that the Gentiles had received the same gift and were now included in God's plan for salvation. Did it stop there? Apparently not . . . just because God used the church at Corinth in Paul's teaching on the subject doesn't necessarily mean that the Corinthians were the only church that worshiped in this manner. They had it all wrong, as even many churches do today - but that doesn't negate the fact that - "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man (believer) to profit withal". Paul went to the trouble of reproving them and then taught HOW tongues and prophesy were to be used in the church by revelation. Was he just wasting his time? If ALL scripture is inspired by God and is given for doctrine, reproof and correction - then what is the big deal about accepting 1 Corinthians 12-14 as just that?

What then is different, if speaking in tongues the outward manifestation of one having received the gift of holy Spirit to what i said? If someone has received the gift of the holy spirit and cant speak in tongues, he has not the holy spirit.
This is a clear fact according the doctrine of pentecostals/charismatics.

The thing is ALL who have received the gift of holy Spirit CAN speak in tongues. Again - "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man (believer) to profit withal". You can tell by most post - a lot of people do not BELIEVE they can speak in tongues, or that it is available for today . . . People can't do something they do not believe in and people WON'T even try to do something they do not believe in. I am not Pentecostal nor do I consider myself a charismatic (whatever the definition of that is)! Just because someone does not speak in tongues does not mean they have not received the gift of holy Spirit - EVERY believe that has confessed Jesus as Lord has received that gift - whether they manifest it or not!
If this is the same, where it is written, that a sign of this is speaking in tongues, as the pentecost doctrine teaches?
In each example you gave - How did the disciples KNOW that the Gentiles had received the "like gift"? Yes, we only have what is written as our examples and although in the beginning, it was to reflect that the Gentiles had received - we then have 1 Cor. 12-14 teaching about spiritual matters, the reproof and the correction. EVERY little occurrence of every situation that happened on a day to day basis is NOT written . . . It would be toooo big of a book for that! LOL!

Well, i met charismatics which used Joel 3 as scripture proof for the charismatic movement

Ok, time to sleep now.
wishing you a happy ressuraction feast of our Lord Jesus

Thank you and may your day also be blessed!

 

[jaybird88]

Happy resurrection feast!
If we pray with God we lift yourself to gods level!
If we pray to God we are giving him the honor and glory which he deserves!
We are his children, but we are not God.

Happy resurrection!

I think you missed the whole purpose of that post....we are not God...He is in us in the Holy Spirit...in our inner man of the heart created in Christ and in righteousness and holiness.

"What if we prayed with God instead of to God." IOW to pray according to His heart, His way and His when..

he is saying praying to the All High in our common language like Jesus taught is how a humble servant should pray.
attempting to pray to Him in His language, the angel language could make one think they are above others.

 

[Grace777x70]

he is saying praying to the All High in our common language like Jesus taught is how a humble servant should pray.
attempting to pray to Him in His language, the angel language could make one think they are above others.

okie dokie..it looks like a bunch of nonsense to me..have a good day!..Happy Eastor!....

 

[wolfwint]

If the gift of speaking in tongues for the church,h today, why then this teaching came up only through the Pentecostals after the year 1906? And then with signs which you can find in spiritsm too.
Only pentecostals, charismatics and some sects have this doctrine.
This make me doubt that God is behind that.

 

[Grace777x70]

If the gift of speaking in tongues for the church,h today, why then this teaching came up only through the Pentecostals after the year 1906? And then with signs which you can find in spiritsm too.
Only pentecostals, charismatics and some sects have this doctrine.
This make me doubt that God is behind that.

I have told you this a few times...but I'll do it once more....there have been times in church history where people have spoken in tongues ( ecstatic utterances.. as they were sometimes referred to ). I have left links to articles with that information on it in this thread.

Again...this is the same argument that the catholic church gave to Luther when he said "the just shall live by faith"..the catholic church had 1,300 years of "tradition" and Luther revived the real truth of being saved by grace alone through faith.

People telling me that tongues is not for today is on par with an atheist telling me Jesus is not real...everyone knows there is no God. It's foolishness. It is just the human mind trying to rationalize spiritual truths and it cannot be done.

Many on here have given you scriptures on tongues...if you don't want them.....you don't have to...simple. If you don't want to believe your sins are forgiven - you don't have to do that either.

This is the last time I am posting in here as it's just getting to be a merry-go-round....and it is completely useless.

I wish you well in your walk with the Lord. He will be faithful to you!..God bless you abundantly!...

 

[wolfwint]

Yes, and I followed you links and I read also the verses which you gave me. Luther did not taught speaking in tongues and the other sign gifts. I came from Protestant background. Never this was taught in Lutheran ore Protestant churches and also not through the other reformation churches! You never gave an answer to my why questions how it can be that God using a 2nd Pentecost with sign which you also can find in spiritism, but not as sign for the holy spirit. Pentecost is accept from all Christians. And this so called 2nd Pentecost divided Christianity. Please explain this, if you can. All who are teaching this sign gifts had their beginning in 1906 and some events after that: f.e. Toronto blessings. For me no reason to follow. Because their is an other spirit behind.