Why the king james?

[KJV1611]

You cant discern greek

Justified means made righteous in any verse. You don;t change meaning of words just to suit your belief system.

I don't care about the Greek, we're talking about the English NIV. You refuse to acknowledge that justified has more than one meaning. Read the definition of the word. Which definition is the bible using Number 1 or Number 2?


jus·ti·fied
ˈjəstəˌfīd/
adjective

• 1.
  having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the doctors were justified in treating her"[/COLOR]
  
  
  
• 2.
  THEOLOGY
  declared or made righteous in the sight of God
  
  
  

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Good news: I found another useful website as a result of this discussion.

Three Things, Part 1: Abraham's Faith

 

[KJV1611]

What does verse 23 say in your Bible?






21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.


6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6)

Right, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. It doesn't say Abraham offered up Isaac and it was counted for him as righteousness. We are not made righteous by our works.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Right, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. It doesn't say Abraham offered up Isaac and it was counted for him as righteousness. We are not made righteous by our works.

Abraham was considered righteous before God because his actions (works) aligned with his faith (belief).
Verse 22 states that his works made his faith perfect.
Abraham showed God that he believed God by his actions.
Abraham's actions made his faith perfect and this perfect faith made him righteous before God.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[hornetguy]

Perhaps we should be more concerned with our own righteousness, and quit worrying about Abraham.

Jots and tittles....

Meaningless.... chasing after the wind.

 

[KJV1611]

Abraham was considered righteous before God because his actions (works) aligned with his faith (belief).
Verse 22 states that his works made his faith perfect.
Abraham showed God that he believed God by his actions.
Abraham's actions made his faith perfect and this perfect faith made him righteous before God.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham's faith was made perfect through his works, his works did not HIM perfect nor did it make him righteous.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't care about the Greek, we're talking about the English NIV.

The passage in question was written in greek. Not english, so you must interpret it with the correct defenition of the greek word. NOT THE ENGLISH. so what you THINK or CARE about does not matter..

You refuse to acknowledge that justified has more than one meaning. Read the definition of the word. Which definition is the bible using Number 1 or Number 2?


jus·ti·fied
ˈjəstəˌfīd/
adjective

• 1.
  having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the doctors were justified in treating her"[/COLOR]
  
  
  
• 2.
  THEOLOGY
  declared or made righteous in the sight of God
  
  
  

Where did you get that from. and English dictionary?

You do not interpret a greek word with an English dictionary!! James did not write the word in English he wrote it in gree, You have to interpret it as people in the 1st century would. Not how a group of men in 1600s did!

Justified has many possible meanings, and they all mean the same thing.

I, and a few others, have already showed that to you. But you ignore it.

The meaning is the same

Abraham was declared righteous when he believed God, and his works proved it

Again, CONTEXT RULES.. James is doing a compare and contrast between people who have a claimed faiht only. vs having a real living faith.

Those who have a living faith will work. and their work will prove their righteousness.

 

[KJV1611]

Abraham was declared righteous when he believed God, and his works proved it

Again, CONTEXT RULES.. James is doing a compare and contrast between people who have a claimed faiht only. vs having a real living faith.

Those who have a living faith will work. and their work will prove their righteousness.

You just said exactly what I've been saying all along. Abraham's faith was justified as being legitimate by his works. Abraham was NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS by his works. The NIV disagrees with both of us, it says Abraham was considered righteous by his works.

[h=1]James 2:21New International Version (NIV)[/h]21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

You just said exactly what I've been saying all along. Abraham's faith was justified as being legitimate by his works. Abraham was NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS by his works. The NIV disagrees with both of us, it says Abraham was considered righteous by his works.

James 2:21New International Version (NIV)

21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

'Considered', not 'made'.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Abraham's faith was made perfect through his works, his works did not HIM perfect nor did it make him righteous.

The entire premise of the passage in question is: Faith without works is dead.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (KJV)

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (NIV)

17 So too, faith, if it does not have works [to back it up], is by itself dead [inoperative and ineffective]. (AMP)

-also-

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (KJV)

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (NIV)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You just said exactly what I've been saying all along. Abraham's faith was justified as being legitimate by his works. Abraham was NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS by his works. The NIV disagrees with both of us, it says Abraham was considered righteous by his works.

James 2:21New International Version (NIV)

21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

smh.

Thank, you just proved the flaw of the english language.

The greek word used means to be justified, Declared righteous, Made righteous, Considered innocent, Aquited of all guilt. That is how a greek speaking person in the 1st centuray ad would have read that passage.

if anything, Considered righteous because of his works would be more appropriate. Because if he did not have work, he would have been considered unrighteous. Because his faith was dead.

so in reality, The NIV is more accurate in its defenition.

thanks for bringing that to my attention.

even though justified is the word for word translation (The NIV is not a word for word interpretation to my knowledge.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

'Considered', not 'made'.

I just got that myself. Good to see I am not only one.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

The NIV is not a word for word interpretation to my knowledge.

You're right--it's not. Here's a decent article on the topic:

Which Bible translation is best?

Pretty much sums up what folks have been trying to communicate to the KJV-only folks here.

"The KJV is the oldest of the four and continues to be the favorite of many. It is known as the Authorized Version of 1611 because King James I approved the project to create an authoritative English Bible. Although it contains many obsolete words (some of which have changed in meaning), many people appreciate its dignity and majesty. The NKJV is a similar translation, taken from the same group of ancient manuscripts, that simply updates the archaic language of the KJV."​

 

[trofimus]

I was it in the copies of the originals?

It was qouted by two apostles in the inspired New testament on two different places. There is no way to get out of this and say "its ok when our Old Testament does not have it, because... xyz".

I use Greek, I have it both in OT and in NT. NT proves it is right to be so.
KJV got it wrong, together with the most of other English translations. We can talk about the reason why it is so, but it will not make it a good thing. It is missing, obviously.

 

[trofimus]

I don't care about the Greek...

Ah, this hurts...

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I don't care about the Greek...

Ah, this hurts...

Yeah, can you imagine if King James' scribes would have had this attitude of "I don't care about the Greek"?

(Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek are the original languages of the Scriptures which became the Bible.)

 

[trofimus]

Yeah, can you imagine if King James' scribes would have had this attitude of "I don't care about the Greek"?

(Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek are the original languages of the Scriptures which became the Bible.)

Were the KJV scribes actually saying, that their translation is inspired or without any error? Or is it just idea of the KJV users?
I am not familiar with the history of KJV.

 

[KJV1611]

'Considered', not 'made'.

No difference, made righteous or considered righteous. None of us are made righteous nor considered righteous due to our works. Do yu agree with that?

 

[trofimus]

No difference, made righteous or considered righteous. None of us are made righteous nor considered righteous due to our works. Do yu agree with that?

I agree with the works part.

I think that somebody can be considered to be something and still not to be that in reality.
Considered means "how it appears to be", only.

If somebody is made something, he is it, certainly.

But I am not native English speaker, so maybe I feel it wrong.

 

[KJV1611]

smh.

Thank, you just proved the flaw of the english language.

The greek word used means to be justified, Declared righteous, Made righteous, Considered innocent, Aquited of all guilt. That is how a greek speaking person in the 1st centuray ad would have read that passage.

if anything, Considered righteous because of his works would be more appropriate. Because if he did not have work, he would have been considered unrighteous. Because his faith was dead.

so in reality, The NIV is more accurate in its defenition.

thanks for bringing that to my attention.

even though justified is the word for word translation (The NIV is not a word for word interpretation to my knowledge.

Make up your mind EG. Was Abraham's faith justified or was Abraham considered righteous because of his works.