Forgive others who sin against you

[ladylynn]

Sure. Everybody's saved. No conditions. No repentance required. No faith required. Yeah, when we see things like "if he repent" in the words of our Lord, let's just edit them out and create our own doctrines.

No., but we DO have to see these truths from Jesus in proper order. We are called and are now responsible to rightly divide the Word of truth. After the cross, Jesus brought IN the new covenant of Grace. It did not come into play until HE brought it in by His death and resurrection.

The curtain between the Holy of Holys was rent in two after Jesus paid the price for our redemption. Jesus cleared the way to God.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Gods forgiveness is unconditional, as ours is to be towards others.

Sure. Everybody's saved. No conditions. No repentance required. No faith required. Yeah, when we see things like "if he repent" in the words of our Lord, let's just edit them out and create our own doctrines.

Forgiveness is not salvation.

Also, depends on context (daily forgiveness versus proclamation of salvation).

Found a nice article (dissertation rather!) on the subject:

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"In a context of daily prayer, the true disciple can expect forgiveness based upon forgiveness of others (Matt 6). In the context of the proclamation of the salvation of the Messiah from sin, a person is proclaimed forgiven based upon the condition of faith (Matt 9). In the context of describing true and false disciples in the kingdom, those who do not forgive are not true disciples (Matt 18). Finally, in the context of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a substitutionary sacrifice to establish a new covenant, forgiveness is proclaimed based upon the condition of faith (Matt 26).


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Thus, in Matthew, to be saved from sin (Matt 1:21) is based upon the condition of faith in Jesus and entering into the kingdom of Jesus. To be saved from sin does not have the condition of forgiving other people in the contexts of the offer of such salvation.


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Those who enter the kingdom as little children are taught to pray daily for a forgiveness designed to avoid the daily consequences of God bringing punishment upon them. That daily forgiveness is conditional upon their forgiveness of others. Also, those who are true disciples of Jesus (the true little children), have the characteristic of forgiving others, since those who refuse to forgive are not true disciples."


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Source: https://bible.org/article/divine-forgiveness-conditional-or-unconditional-gospel-matthew

 

[PeterJens]

Two things strike me as odd. To forgive someone is to not take something you find hurtful or difficult into account.
It is something people and God do. This is not unique to God, but is part of life, christian or not.
To not see this is simply not accepting normal relationships, and getting upset and then moving on.

The second idea is not forgiving is ok. For me two issues are important. Recognising you are hurt and a particular situation was important to you. The second is separating other peoples behaviour from you reaction. If you ever talk to a doctor or policeman, you realise they have to do this every day. They are called to behave in a particular way, no matter the provocation. This distancing approach is important. It makes it possible to stop being a victim and becoming a positive contributor.

Forgiving people is actually removing yourself from the situation and being objective. At this point you can often judge it properly and you no longer are reacting from personal revenge. Listen to Jesus before Pontious Pilate. "You do not have the power of take my life unless it has been given to you."

All things are in the hands of the Lord. It is his purposes that are being worked out. It is why Paul talked about the privilege of sharing in His sufferings.

Forgiveness is probably one of the hardest issues we have to face, because it is about submission and humbleness, letting go of our rights and exercising love to others.

On one basis, christian brothers and sisters who refuse to repent of calling me a hypocrite, an unbeliever, say I lie and intend evil against the Lord, have refused to repent and continue in like mind, should I forgive them?

The problem is they are blinded by their belief system, which says I must be those things to not agree with their ideas of OSAS. The language looses its meaning because it is so unreal and founded on good things, and the subject matter so serious. For me it makes a mockery of faith itself, and the Lord, so I just say, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

If is like saying you do not have to forgive because everyone is already forgiven. This is just a denial of hurt, upset and holding this against another. But some seem to dwell in this kind of world, which I cannot relate to at all.

 

[roaringkitten]

The heart of forgiveness displayed at the cross:

"And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:33-34

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Two things strike me as odd. To forgive someone is to not take something you find hurtful or difficult into account.
It is something people and God do. This is not unique to God, but is part of life, christian or not.
To not see this is simply not accepting normal relationships, and getting upset and then moving on.

The second idea is not forgiving is ok. For me two issues are important. Recognising you are hurt and a particular situation was important to you. The second is separating other peoples behaviour from you reaction. If you ever talk to a doctor or policeman, you realise they have to do this every day. They are called to behave in a particular way, no matter the provocation. This distancing approach is important. It makes it possible to stop being a victim and becoming a positive contributor.

Forgiving people is actually removing yourself from the situation and being objective. At this point you can often judge it properly and you no longer are reacting from personal revenge. Listen to Jesus before Pontious Pilate. "You do not have the power of take my life unless it has been given to you."

All things are in the hands of the Lord. It is his purposes that are being worked out. It is why Paul talked about the privilege of sharing in His sufferings.

Forgiveness is probably one of the hardest issues we have to face, because it is about submission and humbleness, letting go of our rights and exercising love to others.

On one basis, christian brothers and sisters who refuse to repent of calling me a hypocrite, an unbeliever, say I lie and intend evil against the Lord, have refused to repent and continue in like mind, should I forgive them?

The problem is they are blinded by their belief system, which says I must be those things to not agree with their ideas of OSAS. The language looses its meaning because it is so unreal and founded on good things, and the subject matter so serious. For me it makes a mockery of faith itself, and the Lord, so I just say, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

If is like saying you do not have to forgive because everyone is already forgiven. This is just a denial of hurt, upset and holding this against another. But some seem to dwell in this kind of world, which I cannot relate to at all.

Nearly every day you share your lamenting on CC...

...to what avail?

Has someone hurt you here? Go and tell that person.
Did they not listen? Bring another along with you to tell them.
Did you do this and they still didn't listen? Move on and pray for them. (Matt 18:15-17)

 

[Dan58]

"Forgive us our sins and we forgive those who sin against us"

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matt 6:14-15

I believe the KJV is more accurate; "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matthew 6:14-15).

"None can forgive sins but God; not any of the angels in heaven, or men on earth; not holy good men, nor ministers of the Gospel" (John Gill's comment on Luke 5:21). A sin is a violation of God's law, we can't over-ride God and forgive sin. A trespass is not always done willfully, its not always what someone has done to you, but can be something they failed to do, intentionally or unintentionally. And when we experience a personal offense, its not always due from a sinful action of someone else. jmo

I confessed I was a sinner to God. People who sin against me do not confess their sins to me.
So I am supposed to forgive as God forgave and they didn't do anything to ask for forgiveness but I did.

No one can sin against us because sin is not a violation of our law. The sin is a violation against God, the law giver. Forgiving those who trespass against us is letting an offense go, not taking vengeance. Your correct, in that we aren't obligated to forgive others who don't repent. We are to forgive even as God forgives us, but God doesn't forgive the unrepentant. "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him" (Luke 17:3). That's how I look at it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

After the Cross.....

Colossians 3:13
"Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you."

Ephesians 4:32
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

.........

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I believe the KJV is more accurate; "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matthew 6:14-15).

AMP version does a good job of expanding on that accuracy:

 

[Grace777x70]

 

[ladylynn]

The thing is., not every one is aware of this. We were always taught everyone is saved the same way and there was not much of distinction. The OT saints looked forward to the cross., the NT saints looked back... period. No more definition than that. But when you find out about the new covenant you wonder why no one ever told you the rest of the story!

"The old covenant of law..God's forgiveness was conditional upon performance." But under the new covenant of grace we receive salvation based on the Christ and His gift of righteousness. We do not get made righteous over and over. We are made righteous IN Christ one time. We were once children of darkness but now we are children of light. We are not of the night but of the day. We don't step back and forth into both.

 

[phil112]

There is a simple truth to forgiving that makes everything make sense, makes it all fall into place.
We are told to forgive people who trespass against us if we want God to forgive us our sins.
A trespass is, in this passage, the same as sin. It is an offense.
We can't forgive Dave for offending Dustin because we weren't the ones offended. Dustin was. So only Dustin can forgive Dave for offending him.
Sin doesn't always offend another person. Let's say I sit at home and get drunk and smoke cigarettes. Another person isn't offended by that because it isn't directed at them nor are they affected by it. A priest can't forgive sins for that very reason.
But, every sin we commit offends God. Every sin is against His desire for us and we are perverting His creation. He did not create us to harm ourselves. That is being destructive to His lump of clay. Only He has the right to harm His creation.

So, to understand forgiveness we only need to understand that to forgive, the forgiver must be the one that is offended. That's all there is to it.

 

[ladylynn]

There is a simple truth to forgiving that makes everything make sense, makes it all fall into place.
We are told to forgive people who trespass against us if we want God to forgive us our sins.
A trespass is, in this passage, the same as sin. It is an offense.
We can't forgive Dave for offending Dustin because we weren't the ones offended. Dustin was. So only Dustin can forgive Dave for offending him.
Sin doesn't always offend another person. Let's say I sit at home and get drunk and smoke cigarettes. Another person isn't offended by that because it isn't directed at them nor are they affected by it. A priest can't forgive sins for that very reason.
But, every sin we commit offends God. Every sin is against His desire for us and we are perverting His creation. He did not create us to harm ourselves. That is being destructive to His lump of clay. Only He has the right to harm His creation.

So, to understand forgiveness we only need to understand that to forgive, the forgiver must be the one that is offended. That's all there is to it.

Am asking you to consider the fact that if when we were forgiven and made 100% righteous in Christ; because of His imputed righteousness.., and our sins are forgiven and put away as far as the east is from the west,.... how can we who are now righteous because of Christ, have an added stipulation now of - if you don't forgive someone., God will not forgive you. How does it fit into the new covenant?

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Jesus said the heavenly Father would likewise do to his discples what that lord did when handing over that (first forgiven) yet unmerciul servant over to the tormentors.

Which somewhat ressembles judgment without mercy as shown

But God just meant those words for his own disciples during those first 3 years?

 

[ladylynn]

Jesus said the heavenly Father would likewise do to his discples what that lord did when handing over that (first forgiven) yet unmerciul servant over to the tormentors.

Which somewhat ressembles judgment without mercy as shown

But God just meant those words for his own disciples during those first 3 years?

Well, as a beloved "son" I don't expect to be turned over to tormentors. As a child of the King., as a saint., as a sheep of His pasture., as a fellow heir, as one of the beloved.... I don't expect ever to be turned over to the tormentor. All because of Jesus.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

If you are merciful you wouldnt have anything to worry about, the forgiven servant who was unmerciful was treated that way.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


James shows the same things basically

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Fear hath torment, I see it as a good thing that is imparted to an unmerciful person, the Father knows what he is doing in delivering one to that.

 

[ladylynn]

If you are merciful you wouldnt have anything to worry about, the forgiven servant who was unmerciful was treated that way.

So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


James shows the same things basically

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Fear hath torment, I see it as a good thing that is imparted to an unmerciful person, the Father knows what he is doing in delivering one to that.

I'd ask you to consider this in light of the new covenant that Jesus brought in. The reason I do not worry about my life is because of Jesus. Not because of me. If forgiveness and mercy depended on me I'd be in bad shape. Although I daily am seeking to be like Jesus, I fail at times and at the oddest times in fact.

But because of Jesus and Him bringing in grace and truth., I am confident in Him and those things He has brought. The law came by Moses., but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. This is the new covenant of grace we are in today.

Perfect love casts out fear. That perfect love comes from Christ and knowing and believing and learning about Him and His finished work for us and in us. And trusting in that kind of love looks at the one who is loving us - not based on the one loved but on the One doing the loving. We can only love Him because He first loved us.

Like I posted in #53., consider what Jesus has done for us in the new covenant of grace and see things all from the perspective of the cross.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Fear hath torment and it says God has not given again a spirit of fear, but that he that actually fears is not made perfect in love (and there it is). It is about the forgiven servant who becomes a wicked servant (not a wicked servant who needs Gods love) because that has already been extended to him (shown in a debt that has been forgiven him already). From that point on the servant is not following his Lord showing the pattern of compassion which was already shown to him. And he is the one one handed over to the tormentors (not the one he has afflicted) but him. We are to relieve the afflicted (not the afflicter) leaving room for his wrath (as it shows his lord was wroth at his unmercifulness) and he was adressed as "a wicked servant" there (for that reason) and there is no peace to the wicked to continue in that unless you are a bastard and not a son.

I believe in Gods chastisement and I dont believe that being chastised feels good but rather greivous, and that is how I see that picture. Tormentors just help to get that idea across perfectly (as the fear of God was needed)

The robbery of the wicked isin refusing to do judgment which destroys them just as a cruel man troubles his own flesh. To do true judgment is to show compassion and mercy, and thats where the robbbery of the wicked is in refusing to do that. Theres where judgment without mercy come in. Has more to do with chastisement.

Someone perfected in love wouldnt need to be handed over to torment (of any kind) as the forgiven servant walking mercifully (in the mercy shown to them) shall obtain mercy but judgment without mercy that hath shewn no mercy.

I dont believe the Father of our spirits will reward us with peace while walking wickedly like that but torment since tribulation and anguish would be upon every soul of man that doeth evil the Jew first and the Gentile, a man seeing good days and the peace of God being with them is tied into the same.

If we are behaving like that already forgiven servant (called a wicked servant) because of our doings to others in that same manner. By the fear of the Lord is a blessing sent. Since its by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. And if we can say the tormentors represent that which imparts fear (which has torment) experientially so that they might depart from their evil ways in that doing. I would think that is not only just but fair and excellent for teaching such a one a lesson in such a picture of chastisement as that.

Fear has torment and he that fears is not made perfect in love, but neither is grabbing someone by the throat and being unmerciful (per that picture) and so if he that fears possesses the same and has been put in a sort of time out (so to speak) he wont be doing that again without expecting a stroke.

If a person be without that kind of chastisement while walking in that way I would probably be more concerned for them then those fear after doing that. Even Abraham knew where there was no fear of God before men great harm could come to him and sometimes a box of chocolates and flowers isnt going to bring him to his senses.

I see it as chastisement some folks dont believe in that either

 

[ladylynn]

Fear hath torment and it says God has not given again a spirit of fear, but that he that actually fears is not made perfect in love (and there it is). It is about the forgiven servant who becomes a wicked servant (not a wicked servant who needs Gods love) because that has already been extended to him (shown in a debt that has been forgiven him already). From that point on the servant is not following his Lord showing the pattern of compassion which was already shown to him. And he is the one one handed over to the tormentors (not the one he has afflicted) but him. We are to relieve the afflicted (not the afflicter) leaving room for his wrath (as it shows his lord was wroth at his unmercifulness) and he was adressed as "a wicked servant" there (for that reason) and there is no peace to the wicked to continue in that unless you are a bastard and not a son.

I believe in Gods chastisement and I dont believe that being chastised feels good but rather greivous, and that is how I see that picture. Tormentors just help to get that idea across perfectly (as the fear of God was needed)

The robbery of the wicked isin refusing to do judgment which destroys them just as a cruel man troubles his own flesh. To do true judgment is to show compassion and mercy, and thats where the robbbery of the wicked is in refusing to do that. Theres where judgment without mercy come in. Has more to do with chastisement.

Someone perfected in love wouldnt need to be handed over to torment (of any kind) as the forgiven servant walking mercifully (in the mercy shown to them) shall obtain mercy but judgment without mercy that hath shewn no mercy.

I dont believe the Father of our spirits will reward us with peace while walking wickedly like that but torment since tribulation and anguish would be upon every soul of man that doeth evil the Jew first and the Gentile, a man seeing good days and the peace of God being with them is tied into the same.

If we are behaving like that already forgiven servant (called a wicked servant) because of our doings to others in that same manner. By the fear of the Lord is a blessing sent. Since its by the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. And if we can say the tormentors represent that which imparts fear (which has torment) experientially so that they might depart from their evil ways in that doing. I would think that is not only just but fair and excellent for teaching such a one a lesson in such a picture of chastisement as that.

Fear has torment and he that fears is not made perfect in love, but neither is grabbing someone by the throat and being unmerciful (per that picture) and so if he that fears possesses the same and has been put in a sort of time out (so to speak) he wont be doing that again without expecting a stroke.

If a person be without that kind of chastisement while walking in that way I would probably be more concerned for them then those fear after doing that. Even Abraham knew where there was no fear of God before men great harm could come to him and sometimes a box of chocolates and flowers isnt going to bring him to his senses.

I see it as chastisement some folks dont believe in that either

Believers don't have to depend on their self-efforts to receive God's blessings, because Jesus fulfilled every one of the requirements of the law on their behalf. Colossians 2:14
[h=1]Colossians 2:14New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


New American Standard Bible (NASB)



Believers can enjoy God's blessings and undeserved favor because Christ became a curse for them on the cross (Galatians 3:13)
[h=1]Galatians 3:13New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [SUP][a][/SUP]tree”—

Beholding the loveliness of Jesus and His finished work brings about inner transformation, which produces good works that are motivated by God's love (2 Cor.3:18)
[h=1]2 Corinthians 3:18New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The blood of Jesus has removed the sins---past, present and future---of believers, completely and perfectly, once and for all. (Hebrews 10:11-12)
[h=1]Hebrews 10:11-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP]Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; [SUP]12 [/SUP]but He, having offered one sacrifice for [SUP][a][/SUP]sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Sin has no dominion over believers (Romans 6:14) as the power of Jesus to overcome temptation kicks in when they are conscious that they are righteous in Christ apart from their works (Romans 4:6)


[h=1]Romans 4:6New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


[h=1]Romans 6:14New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Believers no longer look at themselves for security and confidence in Christ because they are now looking to Jesus and not themselves. 2 Cor.5:17;
[h=1]2 Corinthians 5:17New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [SUP][a][/SUP]he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.



Rom.5:7-9;
[h=1]Romans 5:7-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]For one will hardly die for a righteous man; [SUP][a][/SUP]though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, having now been justified [SUP][b][/SUP]by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.


Heb. 10:10
[h=1]Hebrews 10:10New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]10 [/SUP]By [SUP][a][/SUP]this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Believers are under the ministry of Jesus' abundant life 2 Cor.3:6;
[h=1]2 Corinthians 3:6New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]6 [/SUP]who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.



John 10:10
[h=1]John 10:10New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that theymay have life, and [SUP][a][/SUP]have it abundantly.

 

[ladylynn]

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[h=4]Ephesians 1:7[/h]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
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Some Christians believe that although you have forgiveness of sins, you are not free from the penalties of your sins. In other words, you can still expect punishment from God. For example, some married Christian couples have been told that they are childless because God is punishing them for having had pre-marital sex. So although God has forgiven them of that sin, He still has to punish them for it.

I am certainly not for pre-marital sex, but I want you to know that God, who is the only one who can fully appreciate the full value of His Son’s blood and who is completely satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, is at rest in His heart today concerning your sins! That is why He is not against you even when you fail. Neither is He out to punish you when you sin. No, He still loves you, is for you and wants to help you overcome that sin.

In the Old Testament, the blood of bulls and goats could only “cover” sins and not take them away. (Hebrews 10:4) But the blood of Jesus is not like the blood of animals! For by one sacrifice, the eternal blood of the Son of God has forever removed your sins (Psalm 103:12) and cleansed you of allunrighteousness! (1 John 1:9) In fact, God is so satisfied with His Son’s perfect work that He says to you today, “Your sins and lawless deeds I will by no means remember!” (Hebrews 10:17) And if God does not remember them, why would He punish you for them?

Beloved, you have “redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”. Because Jesus’ work is complete, all your sins have been completely forgiven. And complete forgiveness means that the penalties for your sins can no longer fall on you because they had already fallen on Jesus at the cross. (Isaiah 53:5)

So don’t think for one moment that God is punishing you for some sin just because something bad happened to you. Look to the cross and know that all your sins have already been punished fully in the body of Christ. Believe that God is for you and expect victory!

[h=4]Thought For The Day[/h]Because Jesus’ work is complete, all your sins have been completely forgiven.

Devotional Destined to Reign.