The "Rapture"?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A

Armini3

Guest
you own zero doctrine but a false one...jesus isn't taking half of his bride before and discounting the rest living during the trib Rev.ch20 v 4-6 states the 1st resurrection. So "popeye" ya might wanna read with both eyes open instead of one closed and one opened.... when he returns for his bride its all of them not a fraction...
Classic postrib omissions. Tons of them.

Read ALL OF IT.
They ORIGINATE FROM HEAVEN. They are in heaven already DURING THE ENTIRE GT.

If you are set that the rapture is postrib,why do you guys never,ever initiate the picture jesus paints of his bride harvested in mat 25???

You guys will come along and halfheartedly refute the simple story,but you all know it demolishes the postrib rapture doctrine,as does the words of Jesus at the last supper,and the 1st resurrection.

We own this end times doctrine big time.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I'm sorry, but to try and convince ppl that one day soon planes will fall out of the sky, trains, busses, cars will be crashing and there is an aftermath, I believe is irresponsible

MAtt 24 That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.


If people are taken away as suddenly as the Bible says why would there not be chaos ? If you're driving a car one minute and in heaven the next where does the car go?
 
A

Armini3

Guest
Ummm and this point is what???
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
 
A

Armini3

Guest
the car is left running over all the unbelievers left on the earth cuz their to busy looking up at Christ's return.
MAtt 24 That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.


If people are taken away as suddenly as the Bible says why would there not be chaos ? If you're driving a car one minute and in heaven the next where does the car go?
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
Hi BradC,

If you are saying that the "rapture" is the second and final resurrection of 1 Cor 15:23, in association with 1 Thess 4:13-18, I will agree with you.
But usually, when you here some tv preachers talk, rapture is almost always followed by pre-trib teachings, so if you are talking to people and you say "rapture" they almost always assume that (pre-trib) is what you are talking about. This is why I like to say resurrection (1 Cor 15: 23).

I have also found that just saying the word rapture in some churches leads to heated discussions about the meaning and how it is applied. This is a terrible thing for non-believers who want to know Jesus and His love, (2 Tim 2:14). The word has divided us and perhaps diverted the attention of the saints from the work of salvation. I believe in prophetic discussions, but for most people I believe it (rapture) distorts the discussion.
 
A

Armini3

Guest
don't like that word either...
Hi BradC,

If you are saying that the "rapture" is the second and final resurrection of 1 Cor 15:23, in association with 1 Thess 4:13-18, I will agree with you.
But usually, when you here some tv preachers talk, rapture is almost always followed by pre-trib teachings, so if you are talking to people and you say "rapture" they almost always assume that (pre-trib) is what you are talking about. This is why I like to say resurrection (1 Cor 15: 23).

I have also found that just saying the word rapture in some churches leads to heated discussions about the meaning and how it is applied. This is a terrible thing for non-believers who want to know Jesus and His love, (2 Tim 2:14). The word has divided us and perhaps diverted the attention of the saints from the work of salvation. I believe in prophetic discussions, but for most people I believe it (rapture) distorts the discussion.
 
Jan 26, 2016
382
2
0
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

How does that change what I said? The Bible talks about being caught up with the Lord,or the rapture. Do you believe in the rapture?
No, because these verses are about the final coming. Not some man made rapture
 
Jan 26, 2016
382
2
0
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

How does that change what I said? The Bible talks about being caught up with the Lord,or the rapture. Do you believe in the rapture?
No, because these verses are about the final coming, Not some man made rapture
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
Hi kaylagrl,
Isn't the quote that you gave ( Matt 24:36-41) about the destruction of Jerusalem (70 ad)?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
No, because these verses are about the final coming, Not some man made rapture
Hi Nikki84,

The gathering of the church is not man made, as you can see for yourself by the scripture that Kaylagrl provided. The continuing problem has to do with what you mentioned about making the gathering of the church synonymous with the Lord's return to end the age. Understand this, these two events are individual and happen at different times. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is to resurrect the dead in Christ and to remove the living believer's prior to God's wrath being poured out. Where the Lord's return to the earth, which takes place after his wrath, will be to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. I continue to provide information which demonstrates that the church/bride is seen in heaven during the time of God's wrath, but no one pays attention to this proof and that because they are more concerned about protecting the false belief that they've adopted.

If the catching away of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, who then are the Armies on White horses following the Lord out of heaven? According to Rev.19:6-8, the Bride, which is another designation for the church, is seen receiving her fine clothing, white and clean, which is the same clothing that those riding on the white horses are wearing. Coincidence? To protect their adopted belief some say, "they're angels." Yet Rev.17:14 identifies those who return to the earth with Christ as his "called, chosen and faithful followers," which would not be a proper designation for angels.

The on-going problem regarding this controversy, as I continue to make known, is not understanding the magnitude and severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath, the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated and all human governments will have been dismantled. 1 Thes.1:10 also states that Jesus rescues us from this coming wrath and 1 Thes.5:9 states that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Jesus also said that he would keep us out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the earth. That said, the Lord is not going to build his church and then send it through his wrath.

When the wrath of God begins, there will be nowhere on earth to hide! Those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet are commanded to torment all the inhabitants of the earth, having stings like that of scorpions, with the 144,000 who are sealed as being the only group that is exempt from their torment. This would mean that the church would also be exposed to the torment of these demonic beings, as well as all the other plagues of wrath.

Resurrection of the dead and living being changed = Takes place removing the living church prior to God's wrath. The Lord meets the church in the air and takes us back to the Father's house to those dwelling places he made for us.

Second Coming = The Lord returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, with the church riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and cleaning, following behind him out of heaven.

The wrath of God = seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the plagues caused by the two witnesses
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Hi kaylagrl,
Isn't the quote that you gave ( Matt 24:36-41) about the destruction of Jerusalem (70 ad)?
No,it is speaking of the rapture.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Hi BradC,

If you are saying that the "rapture" is the second and final resurrection of 1 Cor 15:23, in association with 1 Thess 4:13-18, I will agree with you.
But usually, when you here some tv preachers talk, rapture is almost always followed by pre-trib teachings, so if you are talking to people and you say "rapture" they almost always assume that (pre-trib) is what you are talking about. This is why I like to say resurrection (1 Cor 15: 23).

I have also found that just saying the word rapture in some churches leads to heated discussions about the meaning and how it is applied. This is a terrible thing for non-believers who want to know Jesus and His love, (2 Tim 2:14). The word has divided us and perhaps diverted the attention of the saints from the work of salvation. I believe in prophetic discussions, but for most people I believe it (rapture) distorts the discussion.
That is unfortunate too, because regarding those in Christ, his appearing is our blessed hope.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
Hi kaylagrl,
Let's start a new thread about Matt ch 24&25, Lk ch 17&21, Mk 13. I believe that they are about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 ad and the times of the gentiles. We can talk about these passages there, if you want to. yes?
 
A

Armini3

Guest
you are copying and pasting the same broken record poor Wilber the horse is been dead and your socking away at him still, and cannot prove any of your pre trib with a solid vs that clearly states church removal precedes the trib. still waiting for your rebuttal to my proof posted yesterday...??
Hi Nikki84,

The gathering of the church is not man made, as you can see for yourself by the scripture that Kaylagrl provided. The continuing problem has to do with what you mentioned about making the gathering of the church synonymous with the Lord's return to end the age. Understand this, these two events are individual and happen at different times. 1 Thes.4:13-18 is to resurrect the dead in Christ and to remove the living believer's prior to God's wrath being poured out. Where the Lord's return to the earth, which takes place after his wrath, will be to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. I continue to provide information which demonstrates that the church/bride is seen in heaven during the time of God's wrath, but no one pays attention to this proof and that because they are more concerned about protecting the false belief that they've adopted.

If the catching away of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, who then are the Armies on White horses following the Lord out of heaven? According to Rev.19:6-8, the Bride, which is another designation for the church, is seen receiving her fine clothing, white and clean, which is the same clothing that those riding on the white horses are wearing. Coincidence? To protect their adopted belief some say, "they're angels." Yet Rev.17:14 identifies those who return to the earth with Christ as his "called, chosen and faithful followers," which would not be a proper designation for angels.

The on-going problem regarding this controversy, as I continue to make known, is not understanding the magnitude and severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath, the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated and all human governments will have been dismantled. 1 Thes.1:10 also states that Jesus rescues us from this coming wrath and 1 Thes.5:9 states that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Jesus also said that he would keep us out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the earth. That said, the Lord is not going to build his church and then send it through his wrath.

When the wrath of God begins, there will be nowhere on earth to hide! Those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet are commanded to torment all the inhabitants of the earth, having stings like that of scorpions, with the 144,000 who are sealed as being the only group that is exempt from their torment. This would mean that the church would also be exposed to the torment of these demonic beings, as well as all the other plagues of wrath.

Resurrection of the dead and living being changed = Takes place removing the living church prior to God's wrath. The Lord meets the church in the air and takes us back to the Father's house to those dwelling places he made for us.

Second Coming = The Lord returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, with the church riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and cleaning, following behind him out of heaven.

The wrath of God = seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the plagues caused by the two witnesses
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
here's something you can write on your chalk board Ahwatukee, if it is written that "the saints" are to be givin into his hand times,times,and a dividing of time=3 1/2 years (dan 7:25) an you say (pre-trib) What makes the pre-trib "believers" deserve the removal anymore than those that will be in it? logic would say Daniel seeing the vision would make that distinct observation, or do you think he ran outta ink an forgot to write only the "tribulation saints"?
Hell Armini3,

Fist of all, you have to understand who is being referred to as "Saints." Now please read this and take into consideration what I am writing here. God has left clues, hidden treasures of knowledge in his book of Revelation for those who would search for the deeper things, the hidden things, which is what I have been sharing on this site for some time. Put some real thought into what I am presenting and don't just brush it off because it's not what you believe or have been taught. I really want people to get what the Spirit has revealed to me through scripture.

From Revelation 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used in reference to believer's. In those same chapters we never see the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from Revelation 4 onward, we never see the word "church," but only the word "Saints." This should get the attention those who are serious about the book of Revelation and the study of end-time events. Once this is realized, the reader is left with two choices for the distinction between these two wordss:

1. It's just a coincidence that the word "church" is used 19 times in the first 3 chapters and then is never used again, or

2. There is a definite reason as to why the Holy Spirit made a distinction between the words church and saints in their respective chapters.

In Rev.7:9-17, we are introduced to two new groups, the first being the 144,000 who are clearly described as coming out of the twelve tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. Then we have the next group which are a great multitude wearing white robes which no one could count. A few verses down, the elder asks John, "these in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John this question demonstrates that this group is not the church. In answer to the elder's question, John says, "Sir, you are the one who knows." The fact that John didn't recognize this group also demonstrates that they were not the church. The elder then says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." Taking all of this into consideration, the reason why we do not see the church mentioned from chapter 4 onward is because the church has been removed and is not present on earth during the time of God's wrath. The 13 references to "Saints" from chapter 4 onward, is in reference to those great tribulation saints revealed by the elder.

This group, the great tribulation saints, will be those who will become believers after the church has been removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath. The Holy Spirit had a definite purpose for the separation of the use of the words "church" and "saints," which are never used interchangeably in any of those chapters.

Another clue is that in Rev.1:19, John is told by the Lord to "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." What is "Now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period, which we are still presently in, i.e., we are currently still in the "Now" which is the church period. The "What will take place later" is referring to what will take place after the "Now" i.e. what will take place after the church period. When the Lord descends and gathers the dead and the living believer's at the resurrection, then the time of the "what will take place later" will begin, which covers the time of God's fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens regarding Israel and Jerusalem, as well as God's dealing with the rest of the nations as revealed in Dan.2:31-45, which is the dismantling of all human governments in preparation for his millennial kingdom.

What makes the pre-trib "believers" deserve the removal anymore than those that will be in it?


Your question above is a common question and is an erroneous conclusion. The question has been and is currently put this way, "why should the apostles and the first century church have suffered persecuted and all kinds of gruesome deaths and the church in the last days escape what is coming. The answer lies in understanding the difference between trials and tribulations at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, compared to God's direct wrath upon mankind to bring the age to an end. Scripture states that by Jesus sacrifice on the cross, the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins has been satisfied and are no longer under God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9). Scripture also states that by Jesus' sacrifice, he has rescued us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). He also said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." It is therefore very unlikely that he would build his church and then send it through his wrath, when he has already taken the wrath we deserve upon himself. Two payments are not required.

Therefore, the answer to your question is that, the church in the first century suffered for keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, even unto death and this as a result of trials and tribulation, which Jesus said we would have. In opposition, what is coming is the direct wrath of God upon all who continue to live according to the sinful nature and who continue to reject his Son, the proud, the haughty, the arrogant, the sexually immoral, the greedy, gossips, slanders, blasphemer's, thieves, murders, lovers of money, etc., etc., etc. Those who have believed in Christ and will have continued in faith, will be gathered and removed from the earth when the Lord appears, rescuing those who belong to him prior to the on-set of his wrath.

I hope that you and everyone reading this will actually read the entire post and read the provided scriptures and consider what is being presented here, because it is God's truth.


 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
here's something you can write on your chalk board Ahwatukee, if it is written that "the saints" are to be givin into his hand times,times,and a dividing of time=3 1/2 years (dan 7:25) an you say (pre-trib) What makes the pre-trib "believers" deserve the removal anymore than those that will be in it? logic would say Daniel seeing the vision would make that distinct observation, or do you think he ran outta ink an forgot to write only the "tribulation saints"?
I thought that the print was too small in the original post, so here it is again, but easier to read:

Hell Armini3,

Fist of all, you have to understand who is being referred to as "Saints." Now please read this and take into consideration what I am writing here. God has left clues, hidden treasures of knowledge in his book of Revelation for those who would search for the deeper things, the hidden things, which is what I have been sharing on this site for some time. Put some real thought into what I am presenting and don't just brush it off because it's not what you believe or have been taught. I really want people to get what the Spirit has revealed to me through scripture.

From Revelation 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used in reference to believer's. In those same chapters we never see the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from Revelation 4 onward, we never see the word "church," but only the word "Saints." This should get the attention those who are serious about the book of Revelation and the study of end-time events. Once this is realized, the reader is left with two choices for the distinction between these two wordss:

1. It's just a coincidence that the word "church" is used 19 times in the first 3 chapters and then is never used again, or

2. There is a definite reason as to why the Holy Spirit made a distinction between the words church and saints in their respective chapters.

In Rev.7:9-17, we are introduced to two new groups, the first being the 144,000 who are clearly described as coming out of the twelve tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. Then we have the next group which are a great multitude wearing white robes which no one could count. A few verses down, the elder asks John, "these in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John this question demonstrates that this group is not the church. In answer to the elder's question, John says, "Sir, you are the one who knows." The fact that John didn't recognize this group also demonstrates that they were not the church. The elder then says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." Taking all of this into consideration, the reason why we do not see the church mentioned from chapter 4 onward is because the church has been removed and is not present on earth during the time of God's wrath. The 13 references to "Saints" from chapter 4 onward, is in reference to those great tribulation saints revealed by the elder.

This group, the great tribulation saints, will be those who will become believers after the church has been removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath. The Holy Spirit had a definite purpose for the separation of the use of the words "church" and "saints," which are never used interchangeably in any of those chapters.

Another clue is that in Rev.1:19, John is told by the Lord to "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." What is "Now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period, which we are still presently in, i.e., we are currently still in the "Now" which is the church period. The "What will take place later" is referring to what will take place after the "Now" i.e. what will take place after the church period. When the Lord descends and gathers the dead and the living believer's at the resurrection, then the time of the "what will take place later" will begin, which covers the time of God's fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens regarding Israel and Jerusalem, as well as God's dealing with the rest of the nations as revealed in Dan.2:31-45, which is the dismantling of all human governments in preparation for his millennial kingdom.


What makes the pre-trib "believers" deserve the removal anymore than those that will be in it?


Your question above is a common question and is an erroneous conclusion. The question has been and is currently put this way, "why should the apostles and the first century church have suffered persecuted and all kinds of gruesome deaths and the church in the last days escape what is coming. The answer lies in understanding the difference between trials and tribulations at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, compared to God's direct wrath upon mankind to bring the age to an end. Scripture states that by Jesus sacrifice on the cross, the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins has been satisfied and are no longer under God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9). Scripture also states that by Jesus' sacrifice, he has rescued us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). He also said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." It is therefore very unlikely that he would build his church and then send it through his wrath, when he has already taken the wrath we deserve upon himself. Two payments are not required.

Therefore, the answer to your question is that, the church in the first century suffered for keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, even unto death and this as a result of trials and tribulation, which Jesus said we would have. In opposition, what is coming is the direct wrath of God upon all who continue to live according to the sinful nature and who continue to reject his Son, the proud, the haughty, the arrogant, the sexually immoral, the greedy, gossips, slanders, blasphemer's, thieves, murders, lovers of money, etc., etc., etc. Those who have believed in Christ and will have continued in faith, will be gathered and removed from the earth when the Lord appears, rescuing those who belong to him prior to the on-set of his wrath.

I hope that you and everyone reading this will actually read the entire post and read the provided scriptures and consider what is being presented here, because it is God's truth.
 
Jan 26, 2016
382
2
0
I thought that the print was too small in the original post, so here it is again, but easier to read:

Hell Armini3,

Fist of all, you have to understand who is being referred to as "Saints." Now please read this and take into consideration what I am writing here. God has left clues, hidden treasures of knowledge in his book of Revelation for those who would search for the deeper things, the hidden things, which is what I have been sharing on this site for some time. Put some real thought into what I am presenting and don't just brush it off because it's not what you believe or have been taught. I really want people to get what the Spirit has revealed to me through scripture.

From Revelation 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used in reference to believer's. In those same chapters we never see the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from Revelation 4 onward, we never see the word "church," but only the word "Saints." This should get the attention those who are serious about the book of Revelation and the study of end-time events. Once this is realized, the reader is left with two choices for the distinction between these two wordss:

1. It's just a coincidence that the word "church" is used 19 times in the first 3 chapters and then is never used again, or

2. There is a definite reason as to why the Holy Spirit made a distinction between the words church and saints in their respective chapters.

In Rev.7:9-17, we are introduced to two new groups, the first being the 144,000 who are clearly described as coming out of the twelve tribes of Israel, 12,000 from each tribe. Then we have the next group which are a great multitude wearing white robes which no one could count. A few verses down, the elder asks John, "these in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John this question demonstrates that this group is not the church. In answer to the elder's question, John says, "Sir, you are the one who knows." The fact that John didn't recognize this group also demonstrates that they were not the church. The elder then says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." Taking all of this into consideration, the reason why we do not see the church mentioned from chapter 4 onward is because the church has been removed and is not present on earth during the time of God's wrath. The 13 references to "Saints" from chapter 4 onward, is in reference to those great tribulation saints revealed by the elder.

This group, the great tribulation saints, will be those who will become believers after the church has been removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath. The Holy Spirit had a definite purpose for the separation of the use of the words "church" and "saints," which are never used interchangeably in any of those chapters.

Another clue is that in Rev.1:19, John is told by the Lord to "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." What is "Now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period, which we are still presently in, i.e., we are currently still in the "Now" which is the church period. The "What will take place later" is referring to what will take place after the "Now" i.e. what will take place after the church period. When the Lord descends and gathers the dead and the living believer's at the resurrection, then the time of the "what will take place later" will begin, which covers the time of God's fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens regarding Israel and Jerusalem, as well as God's dealing with the rest of the nations as revealed in Dan.2:31-45, which is the dismantling of all human governments in preparation for his millennial kingdom.





Your question above is a common question and is an erroneous conclusion. The question has been and is currently put this way, "why should the apostles and the first century church have suffered persecuted and all kinds of gruesome deaths and the church in the last days escape what is coming. The answer lies in understanding the difference between trials and tribulations at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, compared to God's direct wrath upon mankind to bring the age to an end. Scripture states that by Jesus sacrifice on the cross, the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins has been satisfied and are no longer under God's wrath (1 Thes.5:9). Scripture also states that by Jesus' sacrifice, he has rescued us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). He also said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." It is therefore very unlikely that he would build his church and then send it through his wrath, when he has already taken the wrath we deserve upon himself. Two payments are not required.

Therefore, the answer to your question is that, the church in the first century suffered for keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, even unto death and this as a result of trials and tribulation, which Jesus said we would have. In opposition, what is coming is the direct wrath of God upon all who continue to live according to the sinful nature and who continue to reject his Son, the proud, the haughty, the arrogant, the sexually immoral, the greedy, gossips, slanders, blasphemer's, thieves, murders, lovers of money, etc., etc., etc. Those who have believed in Christ and will have continued in faith, will be gathered and removed from the earth when the Lord appears, rescuing those who belong to him prior to the on-set of his wrath.

I hope that you and everyone reading this will actually read the entire post and read the provided scriptures and consider what is being presented here, because it is God's truth.
How will there be believers after the church is removed? That doesn't make sense
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,147
1,783
113
Ahwatukee,

John uses 'church' to refer to individual assemblies and 'saints' to refer to believers throughout the earth. But Paul uses 'church' to refer to an individual assembly that will be here when Christ returns, gives them rest, and executes vengence on them that know not God when he comes to be glorified in the saints in II Thessalonians 1. We also know that the man of sin will be destroyed with the brightness of His coming, as we see in II Thessalonians 2:8.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Look up the word 'coming' in a concordance and see the things that happen at this event.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Ahwatukee,

John uses 'church' to refer to individual assemblies and 'saints' to refer to believers throughout the earth. But Paul uses 'church' to refer to an individual assembly that will be here when Christ returns, gives them rest, and executes vengence on them that know not God when he comes to be glorified in the saints in II Thessalonians 1. We also know that the man of sin will be destroyed with the brightness of His coming, as we see in II Thessalonians 2:8.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Look up the word 'coming' in a concordance and see the things that happen at this event.
Hi Presidente,

Yes, but we are talking specifically about the clues in Revelation. While it is true that the words "church" and "saints" is used interchangeable in the gospels and elsewhere, here in Revelation they are used to make a distinction between the church and the great tribulation saints. If it were a matter of just using the word church and saints to mean the same here, then we should see the word church at least once within chapters 4 through 19, but we don't and that is my point. We see specifically the word "church" used throughout chapters 1 through the very end of chapter 3 and then never again, until 22:16 which is outside of the narrative. Likewise, the word "Saints" is never found anywhere interchangeably with the word church within chapters 1 thru 3. God is making a distinction here between the church and the great tribulation saints.