The "Rapture"?

[Ahwatukee]

I'm not a rapture believer. From intense studying I see where revelation is in reference to the first century. oldhermit sent me a study in my pm box a long time ago about Revelation, the antichrist, ect and it made total sense to me. I'd post it but won't without his permission.

Hello Elizabeth,

My advice to you, is to do your own studies, because what you have received are the false teachings of preterism. There is no way that the events of wrath described in the book of Revelation have been fulfilled at the destruction of the temple. Those who believe this are in for a rude awakening when the church is removed, the antichrist makes his seven year covenant with Israel and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments begin to take place just as they are written. When these judgments begin to take place, no one will have to ask the question as to whether or not they have begun. They also teach that we are currently living in the millennial period with Christ ruling from heaven through the church, which is impossible, as none of the characteristics of the millennial period exist. They circumvent and distort scripture by allegorizing end-time events.

I'm not a rapture believer

Then you are not having faith in the Lord's promise and what Paul referred to as "the blessed hope." The description of the resurrection and catching away of the dead and living in Christ is simple to understand:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Here it is broken down:

1. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven

2. The dead in Christ will rise first

3. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

The following is what Paul wrote to the Corinthians regarding the same event:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Here again, Paul says the dead will be raised and then those who are still alive will be changed. Since the Lord tells us in his word to always be ready and watching for his return, it is of the utmost importance that we as believer's are obeying this and always anticipating, and looking forward to his appearing, otherwise those who do not will represent those bridesmaids whose lamps have gone out and who have no extra oil.

I hope that you will look into this carefully.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Hello Elizabeth,

My advice to you, is to do your own studies, because what you have received are the false teachings of preterism. There is no way that the events of wrath described in the book of Revelation have been fulfilled at the destruction of the temple. Those who believe this are in for a rude awakening when the church is removed, the antichrist makes his seven year covenant with Israel and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments begin to take place just as they are written. When these judgments begin to take place, no one will have to ask the question as to whether or not they have begun. They also teach that we are currently living in the millennial period with Christ ruling from heaven through the church, which is impossible, as none of the characteristics of the millennial period exist. They circumvent and distort scripture by allegorizing end-time events.



Then you are not having faith in the Lord's promise and what Paul referred to as "the blessed hope." The description of the resurrection and catching away of the dead and living in Christ is simple to understand:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Here it is broken down:

1. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven

2. The dead in Christ will rise first

3. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

The following is what Paul wrote to the Corinthians regarding the same event:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Here again, Paul says the dead will be raised and then those who are still alive will be changed. Since the Lord tells us in his word to always be ready and watching for his return, it is of the utmost importance that we as believer's are obeying this and always anticipating, and looking forward to his appearing, otherwise those who do not will represent those bridesmaids whose lamps have gone out and who have no extra oil.

I hope that you will look into this carefully.

Actually i do not see where the rapture is at all scriptural. There's been many conversations about this topic showing my total stance on it. So I won't get into it again on here. And he fact that I didn't even give the content of the study and you already labeled it a
false teaching says a lot. Maybe the study wound surprise you. Maybe not but I wouldn't be accusing someone of a false teaching if you don't know what it being taught. The bible speaks against bearing false witness. Careful what you say

 

[Elizabeth619]

You said all the events were in the first century,did you not?

Sorry if I misunderstood

yes and no. There is symbolism in revelation so some that you mention did not and will not literally take place. Revelation, a large part of it has to do with the judgement against Israel and the destruction of Jerusalem. Right now I really can't get into it. Too much going on but hopefully I can give more info later on. Ok just too physically and emotionally tired to debate it right now. I'm sorry

 

[Ahwatukee]

yes and no. There is symbolism in revelation so some that you mention did not and will not literally take place. Revelation, a large part of it has to do with the judgement against Israel and the destruction of Jerusalem. Right now I really can't get into it. Too much going on but hopefully I can give more info later on. Ok just too physically and emotionally tired to debate it right now. I'm sorry

Just FYI, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have to do with the entire world. Here is an example, at the 4th trumpet, a third of sun, moon and stars are darkened. How can that only affect Israel? When the angel pours out his bowl at the 4th bowl judgment, God causes the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat. How can that be restricted to just Israel? At the sounding of the 1st trumpet a third of the earth is burned up. How can that be restricted to just Israel? These answers to these questions and many more is that, the wrath of God will affect the entire earth. Here's one more:

"The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

If you will notice, the result of that greatest to ever take place on earth causes "the cities of the nations" to collapse. How could on interpret this as being restricted to Israel? Do not be deceived by these false teachings that have crept in.

"And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world

How can every tribe, people, language and nation be refer to Israel only?

[SUP]



[/SUP]

 

[presidente]

If it were a matter of just using the word church and saints to mean the same here, then we should see the word church at least once within chapters 4 through 19, but we don't and that is my point. We see specifically the word "church" used throughout chapters 1 through the very end of chapter 3 and then never again, until 22:16 which is outside of the narrative. Likewise, the word "Saints" is never found anywhere interchangeably with the word church within chapters 1 thru 3. God is making a distinction here between the church and the great tribulation saints.

I don't think you followed my argument. A more literal use of 'church' is to refer to a group of people who actually physically assembly together. That's the way the term is used in Acts. In some of Paul's later writings, he uses the term to refer to the ekklesia all throughout the earth and in heaven. John uses 'church' when he is referring to the church in a city, believers in one location who regularly assemble together. He uses 'saints' to refer to all believers throughout the world.

I know pre-tribbers try to argue that 'church' isn't used because the rapture takes place somewhere before the tribulation. There are problems with this. We don't see anywhere in Revelation that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. And we also see in II Thessalonians that the 'church' is present when Jesus comes back. When Jesus comes back, he gives the church rest. When Jesus comes back, He executes judgment on them that know not God. When Jesus comes back, He is glorified in the saints. When Jesus comes back, the man of sin is destroyed with the brightness of His coming. There is no reason to think that Paul was talking about Jesus coming back more than one more time.

 

[abcdef]

Hi popeye,

In post #141 you say that you recognize that the end of the times of the gentiles is here, Israel is now or is being fully restored (1967?) at this time. Prophecy coming true before our eyes. I believe that Israel's restoration is the most solid evidence that we have concerning the imminent appearance of Jesus.

I believe the great time of trouble (trib) is the times of the gentiles. Some say that the trib. is a literal 7 yr time period but it never actually says any where 7 years, that must be assumed.

The first time, times, 1/2 times (tts1/2t) lasts from the man in linen speaking in Babylon Dan 12:7 until 70ad (power of the Holy people scattered), The next tts1/2t lasts from 70 ad until the restoration of Jerusalem in our present time. The passages in Rev are meant to associated with the Daniel text. This would complete the time the Israel was not in complete control of Jerusalem. Now that Israel is restored the tribulation is over.

The mark of the Beast is the Mark of Rome, Caesar. The beast (Rome) has attacked Israel for over 2000 (civil Rome and religious Rome).

The story of the little book (seals and trumpets) is the story of Israel from Pentecost till the end of the planet.
The seals run from Pentecost (rejection of the gospel) till the destruction of Jerusalem 70 ad.
The silence in heaven is between 70 ad and 96 ad.
The 7 trumpets run from 70 ad to the appearing of our Lord (7th trump, last).

The 5 th trumpet is the beast (city Rev 17, Rome) renewed out of the pit, 1929.
The creatures are to be understood "spiritually" ( 1 Cor 2:14) as enemies of the gospel.

The sixth trumpet (2001) shows an enemy who comes with the winds of destruction blowing over the Euphrates, (towards restored Israel?).

The little book is the little sealed book of Dan 12. It tells the story of the natural branches during the times of the gentiles. Israel today is the two witnesses restored.

The seventh trumpet is the appearance of Jesus and the end of this world.

The events and creatures described are symbolic.

Jesus telling us what they knew then.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't think you followed my argument. A more literal use of 'church' is to refer to a group of people who actually physically assembly together. That's the way the term is used in Acts. In some of Paul's later writings, he uses the term to refer to the ekklesia all throughout the earth and in heaven. John uses 'church' when he is referring to the church in a city, believers in one location who regularly assemble together. He uses 'saints' to refer to all believers throughout the world.

I know pre-tribbers try to argue that 'church' isn't used because the rapture takes place somewhere before the tribulation. There are problems with this. We don't see anywhere in Revelation that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. And we also see in II Thessalonians that the 'church' is present when Jesus comes back. When Jesus comes back, he gives the church rest. When Jesus comes back, He executes judgment on them that know not God. When Jesus comes back, He is glorified in the saints. When Jesus comes back, the man of sin is destroyed with the brightness of His coming. There is no reason to think that Paul was talking about Jesus coming back more than one more time.

Again, forget about all those other places that the word church is used and concentrate on the distinction made here in Revelation. Don't confuse the issue. The Holy Spirit used the word "Ekklessia" translated "Church" and the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." The fact remains that the word "Church" is present in chapters 1 thru 3 with the word "Saints" being absent in those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onwards, the word "Saints is present and the word "Church" is absent and there is a Godly reason for that.

We don't see anywhere in Revelation that the rapture takes place before the tribulation.

I beg to differ. Rev.4.1 is prophetic of the church being caught up where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here," which is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16. I amazed at you people who believe that God is going to build his church and then send it through his wrath. There would be no comforting one another regarding the resurrection and catching away if it took place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. And you still have not answered my question as to who those are following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:14. We are told by Paul that believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus rescued us from it. The wrath of God takes place and then Christ returns to the earth to end the age. If the church was to be gathered at that time, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God. Again, you belief in this is indicative of not understanding the magnitude and severity of the wrath that is coming. There will be nowhere to hide on this earth! Jesus is coming back to the earth one time. When he comes to gather, he is not returning to the earth, but will descend from heaven to gather the church, dead and living and then will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he went to prepare for us.

 

[abcdef]

Hi brother Ahwatukee,

Please read Act 2:5 it says on the day of Pentecost that there were Jews from every nation "under heaven". Did that mean the whole planet , (N. America, S. America, Etc.) or just the nations were Jews were living under God's protection (the Law and Prophets) (scroll, 6 th seal)?

Further on Peter speaks about the day of Pentecost as the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32, before the "Day of the Lord," but which " Day of the Lord" is it? The "Day of the Lord" against Jerusalem or the final "Day of the Lord" against the world?

In Col 1:23 Paul says the at his writing that the gospel had been preached to every creature, does that mean literally every creature on the planet?


The seven vials are "poured" out on God's enemies, primarily the beast, from 70 ad until the end of this planet.
The key is in Rev 15:8 where men are allowed to enter the temple of God. The temple is in heaven, the one from where the 7 angels came out of v6. The thought would be that after the vials were done that men would enter the heavenly temple. This can only happen when men have had their souls purified by the blood of Jesus after the last judgement. So the last vial would be the end of this planet.

Is the hail (rocks) of the 7 th vial the same hail as the 7 th trumpet Rev 11:19?

 

[presidente]

Again, forget about all those other places that the word church is used and concentrate on the distinction made here in Revelation. Don't confuse the issue. The Holy Spirit used the word "Ekklessia" translated "Church" and the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." The fact remains that the word "Church" is present in chapters 1 thru 3 with the word "Saints" being absent in those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onwards, the word "Saints is present and the word "Church" is absent and there is a Godly reason for that.

There is no argument for pre-trib at all unless you assume pre-trib and try to read it back into the passage. Individual churches are called 'church' of whatever city in the book of Revelation. Believers throughout the world are called 'saints.' Where is only the 'church militant', apart from dead saints, ever called 'church' in other scripture? By 'church militant', I mean the living believers on the earth at a given point in time apart from the saints who are asleep in Christ. I don't know of any instance, so John's usage seems consistent with other scripture. Paul's references to 'church' which are broader than one local assembly, could, arguable, include saints who are asleep in Christ as well.

I beg to differ. Rev.4.1 is prophetic of the church being caught up where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here," which is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16.

Just because a trumpet sound was heard, you assume the rapture? There was the sound of a trumpet at Sinai. Does that mean the Israelites were raptured? There were trumpets at Jericho. Were the Israelites raptured up at that time? John was told 'come up hither'. John, one person, in a vision.

It's ironic how many pre-tribbers will pride themselves on being literal in their interpretation. But what you are proposing is a heavily allegorical interpretation. The issue shouldn't be open to debate since II Thessalonians 1 is very direct and lets us know that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, when he comes to be glorified in the saints. 'Church' and 'saints' are both mentioned as present when Jesus comes back. Chapter 2 tells us that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. Paul makes it clear that these events occur at the same time.

I amazed at you people who believe that God is going to build his church and then send it through his wrath.

Again, this is such a weak argument, especially compared to the explicit direct statements of scripture. God was able to pour out his judgments on Egypt without splashing them on His people in the Old Testament. Do you think the tribulational saints are 'appointed unto wrath.' It is clear that they will endure some suffering. Why do you think God would send tribualtional saints through wrath if you think anyone here during that time must be experiencing God's wrath? If they are here and don't experience God's wrath, then why would the 'not appointed unto wrath' be an argument for the pre-trib rapture.

There would be no comforting one another regarding the resurrection and catching away if it took place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.

Of course there is. The passage that says to comfort one another with these words is telling believers not to mourn when someone dies as those who have no hope. The saints who die in Christ will be resurrected. That is comfort to those whose Christian relatives pass away.

And you still have not answered my question as to who those are following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:14.

I believe I address that. I Thessalonians shows us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and they that are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in their air.

We also need to consider that the angels will be with Christ,

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

So the armies coming with Jesus is not a pre-trib argument either.

We are told by Paul that believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus rescued us from it.

In Revelation 13:10 and 14:12, we see that the saints written about in Revelation have faith. They are believers. So do you think they will suffer God's wrath? Do you think they are 'appointed unto wrath'? Are they objects of God's wrath? Going through the tribulation does not equal being under God's wrath.

The wrath of God takes place and then Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

The wrath of God has to do with God being angry, not with being at a certain location during a certain period of time.

How do you deal with the direct teachings of scripture on the issue, Paul's writings? How do you reconcile II Thessalonians with pre-trib? How do you reconcile pre-trib with the church receiving rest at Jesus coming when he comes to execute vengence on them that believe not and to be glorified in His saints? How do you reconcile this with the man of sin also being destroyed at the brightness of His coming? How can you get more than one coming of Christ out of the wording of II Thessalonians 1?

Why does Paul write of they that are Christ's being made alive at Christ's coming if the resurrection is supposed to happen seven years before His coming?

 

[Nikki84]

There is no argument for pre-trib at all unless you assume pre-trib and try to read it back into the passage. Individual churches are called 'church' of whatever city in the book of Revelation. Believers throughout the world are called 'saints.' Where is only the 'church militant', apart from dead saints, ever called 'church' in other scripture? By 'church militant', I mean the living believers on the earth at a given point in time apart from the saints who are asleep in Christ. I don't know of any instance, so John's usage seems consistent with other scripture. Paul's references to 'church' which are broader than one local assembly, could, arguable, include saints who are asleep in Christ as well.



Just because a trumpet sound was heard, you assume the rapture? There was the sound of a trumpet at Sinai. Does that mean the Israelites were raptured? There were trumpets at Jericho. Were the Israelites raptured up at that time? John was told 'come up hither'. John, one person, in a vision.

It's ironic how many pre-tribbers will pride themselves on being literal in their interpretation. But what you are proposing is a heavily allegorical interpretation. The issue shouldn't be open to debate since II Thessalonians 1 is very direct and lets us know that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, when he comes to be glorified in the saints. 'Church' and 'saints' are both mentioned as present when Jesus comes back. Chapter 2 tells us that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. Paul makes it clear that these events occur at the same time.



Again, this is such a weak argument, especially compared to the explicit direct statements of scripture. God was able to pour out his judgments on Egypt without splashing them on His people in the Old Testament. Do you think the tribulational saints are 'appointed unto wrath.' It is clear that they will endure some suffering. Why do you think God would send tribualtional saints through wrath if you think anyone here during that time must be experiencing God's wrath? If they are here and don't experience God's wrath, then why would the 'not appointed unto wrath' be an argument for the pre-trib rapture.



Of course there is. The passage that says to comfort one another with these words is telling believers not to mourn when someone dies as those who have no hope. The saints who die in Christ will be resurrected. That is comfort to those whose Christian relatives pass away.



I believe I address that. I Thessalonians shows us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and they that are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in their air.

We also need to consider that the angels will be with Christ,

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

So the armies coming with Jesus is not a pre-trib argument either.




In Revelation 13:10 and 14:12, we see that the saints written about in Revelation have faith. They are believers. So do you think they will suffer God's wrath? Do you think they are 'appointed unto wrath'? Are they objects of God's wrath? Going through the tribulation does not equal being under God's wrath.




The wrath of God has to do with God being angry, not with being at a certain location during a certain period of time.

How do you deal with the direct teachings of scripture on the issue, Paul's writings? How do you reconcile II Thessalonians with pre-trib? How do you reconcile pre-trib with the church receiving rest at Jesus coming when he comes to execute vengence on them that believe not and to be glorified in His saints? How do you reconcile this with the man of sin also being destroyed at the brightness of His coming? How can you get more than one coming of Christ out of the wording of II Thessalonians 1?

Why does Paul write of they that are Christ's being made alive at Christ's coming if the resurrection is supposed to happen seven years before His coming?

Thank you so much for this!!!!!!!! I agree and this is what I believe also

 

[RobbyEarl]

There is no argument for pre-trib at all unless you assume pre-trib and try to read it back into the passage. Individual churches are called 'church' of whatever city in the book of Revelation. Believers throughout the world are called 'saints.' Where is only the 'church militant', apart from dead saints, ever called 'church' in other scripture? By 'church militant', I mean the living believers on the earth at a given point in time apart from the saints who are asleep in Christ. I don't know of any instance, so John's usage seems consistent with other scripture. Paul's references to 'church' which are broader than one local assembly, could, arguable, include saints who are asleep in Christ as well.



Just because a trumpet sound was heard, you assume the rapture? There was the sound of a trumpet at Sinai. Does that mean the Israelites were raptured? There were trumpets at Jericho. Were the Israelites raptured up at that time? John was told 'come up hither'. John, one person, in a vision.

It's ironic how many pre-tribbers will pride themselves on being literal in their interpretation. But what you are proposing is a heavily allegorical interpretation. The issue shouldn't be open to debate since II Thessalonians 1 is very direct and lets us know that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, when he comes to be glorified in the saints. 'Church' and 'saints' are both mentioned as present when Jesus comes back. Chapter 2 tells us that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. Paul makes it clear that these events occur at the same time.



Again, this is such a weak argument, especially compared to the explicit direct statements of scripture. God was able to pour out his judgments on Egypt without splashing them on His people in the Old Testament. Do you think the tribulational saints are 'appointed unto wrath.' It is clear that they will endure some suffering. Why do you think God would send tribualtional saints through wrath if you think anyone here during that time must be experiencing God's wrath? If they are here and don't experience God's wrath, then why would the 'not appointed unto wrath' be an argument for the pre-trib rapture.



Of course there is. The passage that says to comfort one another with these words is telling believers not to mourn when someone dies as those who have no hope. The saints who die in Christ will be resurrected. That is comfort to those whose Christian relatives pass away.



I believe I address that. I Thessalonians shows us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and they that are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in their air.

We also need to consider that the angels will be with Christ,

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

So the armies coming with Jesus is not a pre-trib argument either.




In Revelation 13:10 and 14:12, we see that the saints written about in Revelation have faith. They are believers. So do you think they will suffer God's wrath? Do you think they are 'appointed unto wrath'? Are they objects of God's wrath? Going through the tribulation does not equal being under God's wrath.




The wrath of God has to do with God being angry, not with being at a certain location during a certain period of time.

How do you deal with the direct teachings of scripture on the issue, Paul's writings? How do you reconcile II Thessalonians with pre-trib? How do you reconcile pre-trib with the church receiving rest at Jesus coming when he comes to execute vengence on them that believe not and to be glorified in His saints? How do you reconcile this with the man of sin also being destroyed at the brightness of His coming? How can you get more than one coming of Christ out of the wording of II Thessalonians 1?

Why does Paul write of they that are Christ's being made alive at Christ's coming if the resurrection is supposed to happen seven years before His coming?

My brother May God bless you and keep as I am not your teacher nor do I have any authority over you but you are my brother in Christ. The Rapture and the return of Christ are two separate events. First the one who hinders must be removed before the son of perdition can be revealed. Who is it that hinders? It is the church. It is the only time the church is referred to in masculine as every time it is the feminine meaning the bride. But the Holy Spirit say's HE that hinders must be removed. Please explain who He is?

 

[Nikki84]

My brother May God bless you and keep as I am not your teacher nor do I have any authority over you but you are my brother in Christ. The Rapture and the return of Christ are two separate events. First the one who hinders must be removed before the son of perdition can be revealed. Who is it that hinders? It is the church. It is the only time the church is referred to in masculine as every time it is the feminine meaning the bride. But the Holy Spirit say's HE that hinders must be removed. Please explain who He is?

Hi, could you please provide that scripture? I think you are referring to the Arch Angel Michael.

 

[RobbyEarl]

NO I am not referring to the Michael. It is 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 6 notice that "he" is in lower case and does not refer to a deity but the church.

 

[Nikki84]

NO I am not referring to the Michael. It is 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 6 notice that "he" is in lower case and does not refer to a deity but the church.

I am fairly sure this refers to Michael who is now restraining. It is verse 7 and of course it is a small "h". Michael is not a deity, he is an Angel

 

[RobbyEarl]

I am fairly sure this refers to Michael who is now restraining. It is verse 7 and of course it is a small "h". Michael is not a deity, he is an Angel

Daniel 12:1 he is the protector of Israel and not the restrainer.

 

[Nikki84]

Daniel 12:1 he is the protector of Israel and not the restrainer.

He's not restraining Isreal. He's restraining Satan.

 

[RobbyEarl]

He's not restraining Isreal. He's restraining Satan.

Wrong Israel was destroyed in 70 AD although Michael was there protector and did not become a nation again til 1967, Michael can do nothing that God doesn't tell Him to do. It is the church that restrains and the preaching of the gospel or God would have already destroyed America as He did Israel.

 

[Nikki84]

Wrong Israel was destroyed in 70 AD although Michael was there protector and did not become a nation again til 1967, Michael can do nothing that God doesn't tell Him to do. It is the church that restrains and the preaching of the gospel or God would have already destroyed America as He did Israel.

Sorry Sir, we have a difference of opinion

 

[RobbyEarl]

Sorry Sir, we have a difference of opinion

I honor that, but I hope that you have accepted Christ as your Lord and may God bless you and keep you and prosper the works of your hands.

 

[Nikki84]

I honor that, but I hope that you have accepted Christ as your Lord and may God bless you and keep you and prosper the works of your hands.

Thank you!!! I have and God bless you!