Again, forget about all those other places that the word church is used and concentrate on the distinction made here in Revelation. Don't confuse the issue. The Holy Spirit used the word "Ekklessia" translated "Church" and the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." The fact remains that the word "Church" is present in chapters 1 thru 3 with the word "Saints" being absent in those same chapters. Then from chapter 4 onwards, the word "Saints is present and the word "Church" is absent and there is a Godly reason for that.
There is no argument for pre-trib at all unless you assume pre-trib and try to read it back into the passage. Individual churches are called 'church' of whatever city in the book of Revelation. Believers throughout the world are called 'saints.' Where is only the 'church militant', apart from dead saints, ever called 'church' in other scripture? By 'church militant', I mean the living believers on the earth at a given point in time apart from the saints who are asleep in Christ. I don't know of any instance, so John's usage seems consistent with other scripture. Paul's references to 'church' which are broader than one local assembly, could, arguable, include saints who are asleep in Christ as well.
I beg to differ. Rev.4.1 is prophetic of the church being caught up where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here," which is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16.
Just because a trumpet sound was heard, you assume the rapture? There was the sound of a trumpet at Sinai. Does that mean the Israelites were raptured? There were trumpets at Jericho. Were the Israelites raptured up at that time? John was told 'come up hither'. John, one person, in a vision.
It's ironic how many pre-tribbers will pride themselves on being literal in their interpretation. But what you are proposing is a heavily allegorical interpretation. The issue shouldn't be open to debate since II Thessalonians 1 is very direct and lets us know that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, when he comes to be glorified in the saints. 'Church' and 'saints' are both mentioned as present when Jesus comes back. Chapter 2 tells us that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. Paul makes it clear that these events occur at the same time.
I amazed at you people who believe that God is going to build his church and then send it through his wrath.
Again, this is such a weak argument, especially compared to the explicit direct statements of scripture. God was able to pour out his judgments on Egypt without splashing them on His people in the Old Testament. Do you think the tribulational saints are 'appointed unto wrath.' It is clear that they will endure some suffering. Why do you think God would send tribualtional saints through wrath if you think anyone here during that time must be experiencing God's wrath? If they are here and don't experience God's wrath, then why would the 'not appointed unto wrath' be an argument for the pre-trib rapture.
There would be no comforting one another regarding the resurrection and catching away if it took place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
Of course there is. The passage that says to comfort one another with these words is telling believers not to mourn when someone dies as those who have no hope. The saints who die in Christ will be resurrected. That is comfort to those whose Christian relatives pass away.
And you still have not answered my question as to who those are following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:14.
I believe I address that. I Thessalonians shows us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and they that are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in their air.
We also need to consider that the angels will be with Christ,
Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
So the armies coming with Jesus is not a pre-trib argument either.
We are told by Paul that believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that Jesus rescued us from it.
In Revelation 13:10 and 14:12, we see that the saints written about in Revelation have faith. They are believers. So do you think they will suffer God's wrath? Do you think they are 'appointed unto wrath'? Are they objects of God's wrath? Going through the tribulation does not equal being under God's wrath.
The wrath of God takes place and then Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
The wrath of God has to do with God being angry, not with being at a certain location during a certain period of time.
How do you deal with the direct teachings of scripture on the issue, Paul's writings? How do you reconcile II Thessalonians with pre-trib? How do you reconcile pre-trib with the church receiving rest at Jesus coming when he comes to execute vengence on them that believe not and to be glorified in His saints? How do you reconcile this with the man of sin also being destroyed at the brightness of His coming? How can you get more than one coming of Christ out of the wording of II Thessalonians 1?
Why does Paul write of they that are Christ's being made alive at Christ's coming if the resurrection is supposed to happen seven years before His coming?