The "Rapture"?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You guys can't really handle that some people do not accept your man made rapture.


I see his is back with his childish attacks and slams.


rapture - from the latin raptura meaning to be Caught up.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 [Full Chapter]
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So much for man made. Everyone will be raptured. Unless you deny the resurrection.

The question should be when will it happen. Not if it will happen at all. as your proposing by saying the rapture is man made.


Some people should at least try to study some before they make such outlandish comments which are not true. and easily exposed.
 
Jan 26, 2016
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I see his is back with his childish attacks and slams.


rapture - from the latin raptura meaning to be Caught up.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 [Full Chapter]
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So much for man made. Everyone will be raptured. Unless you deny the resurrection.

The question should be when will it happen. Not if it will happen at all. as your proposing by saying the rapture is man made.


Some people should at least try to study some before they make such outlandish comments which are not true. and easily exposed.
Yes sir, you should study. Your theory came about in the late 1800s by man
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes sir, you should study. Your theory came about in the late 1800s by man
My theory? You do not even know what I believe (I have never claimed to be pre-trib, mid trib or post trib)

See what I mean, I just proved you completely wrong about the term rapture. and all you can do is continue to attack.

Can you not at least show some humility and acknowledge, there will be a rapture. When you believe it will ccure is not the issue, The fact there will be one is, Can you admit your wrong in that area?
 
Jan 26, 2016
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My theory? You do not even know what I believe (I have never claimed to be pre-trib, mid trib or post trib)

See what I mean, I just proved you completely wrong about the term rapture. and all you can do is continue to attack.

Can you not at least show some humility and acknowledge, there will be a rapture. When you believe it will ccure is not the issue, The fact there will be one is, Can you admit your wrong in that area?
I never said there won't be a resurrection. You said I said that. This Tim Lahaye faiiry tale is what I'm against. I'm trying hard not to be against you as you continue to assault me
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I never said there won't be a resurrection. You said I said that. This Tim Lahaye faiiry tale is what I'm against. I'm trying hard not to be against you as you continue to assault me

You said rapture is a fairy tale. (you did not say pre-trib, you said rapture period)

I proved rapture (latin to be caught up) is biblical. and not man made

Are you going to admit you were wrong or not?

Waiting.
 
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Armini3

Guest
bingo! like I mentioned on the last page he basis his statement on (silence) of the word.
I don't think you followed my argument. A more literal use of 'church' is to refer to a group of people who actually physically assembly together. That's the way the term is used in Acts. In some of Paul's later writings, he uses the term to refer to the ekklesia all throughout the earth and in heaven. John uses 'church' when he is referring to the church in a city, believers in one location who regularly assemble together. He uses 'saints' to refer to all believers throughout the world.

I know pre-tribbers try to argue that 'church' isn't used because the rapture takes place somewhere before the tribulation. There are problems with this. We don't see anywhere in Revelation that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. And we also see in II Thessalonians that the 'church' is present when Jesus comes back. When Jesus comes back, he gives the church rest. When Jesus comes back, He executes judgment on them that know not God. When Jesus comes back, He is glorified in the saints. When Jesus comes back, the man of sin is destroyed with the brightness of His coming. There is no reason to think that Paul was talking about Jesus coming back more than one more time.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
Hi Nikki84,

This the riddle that no pre-trib can answer,

1 Cor 15:23-24 Paul says that there are 2 resurrections.
The first was when Jesus rose.
The second at His coming.
Then comes the end, when the kingdom (finished) is delivered to the Father.

The second resurrection cannot be followed by a 7 yr trib/mill, because Paul says that it is the end.

If you say that the church is raptured out before this you must add a resurrection between the first two making 3.

Paul showed only 2.

How can you resolve this?
 
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Armini3

Guest
glad you picked up on that as I did his (probably) and since his basis is based off of silence of the word used he (probably) assumes its not there...(handing NIKKI84 A MEDAL OF OBSERVATION...LOL)
Hi

You used the word probably and anything after that is just a guess. Interesting argument against OSAS though
 
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Armini3

Guest
Brother Rob if I may call you that...lol the one who restrains is the spirit he pulls back not out of our hearts but off the face of thee earth an invisible spiritual restraint holding back the powers of darkness who is in place now to strain the "accuser" (the devil) enough to barely trickle threw (praise God that that is in place now), but to be removed to complete Gods plan for mankind...
My brother May God bless you and keep as I am not your teacher nor do I have any authority over you but you are my brother in Christ. The Rapture and the return of Christ are two separate events. First the one who hinders must be removed before the son of perdition can be revealed. Who is it that hinders? It is the church. It is the only time the church is referred to in masculine as every time it is the feminine meaning the bride. But the Holy Spirit say's HE that hinders must be removed. Please explain who He is?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi Nikki84,

This the riddle that no pre-trib can answer,

1 Cor 15:23-24 Paul says that there are 2 resurrections.
The first was when Jesus rose.
The second at His coming.
Then comes the end, when the kingdom (finished) is delivered to the Father.

The second resurrection cannot be followed by a 7 yr trib/mill, because Paul says that it is the end.

If you say that the church is raptured out before this you must add a resurrection between the first two making 3.

Paul showed only 2.

How can you resolve this?

Thats not the biggest riddle. That is easy, Paul does not say when the ressurections would take place. he just said there would be one.

The biggest riddle is if can the rapture happens at the return of Christ, WHo is left laive on earth for Christ to rule. A since no human would be left alive on earth, they were either raptured by God or killed by him..


That only leaves Amil, Pre-trib or mid trib.

Post trib is utterly destroyed.
 
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Armini3

Guest
I wasn't sure how to copy and paste his statement onto this but I found it comical/interesting how he says "forget about all the other words of "church" are being used just focus on it here" it made me chuckle cuz I was picturing him bailing water out of his boat while he continued to talk. I also entertained myself and read the final mention of the word church in ch22 of Rev. and its there in a "plural form" then my eyes skimmed down and read ill paraphrase here a bit if you mind (don't add anything to the prophecy of this book or take away anything from this book for God will add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. (somebody is playing mathematician= +/- 's here. but because it dosnt fit an adjustment was made/assumed/conjured up...God bless...
There is no argument for pre-trib at all unless you assume pre-trib and try to read it back into the passage. Individual churches are called 'church' of whatever city in the book of Revelation. Believers throughout the world are called 'saints.' Where is only the 'church militant', apart from dead saints, ever called 'church' in other scripture? By 'church militant', I mean the living believers on the earth at a given point in time apart from the saints who are asleep in Christ. I don't know of any instance, so John's usage seems consistent with other scripture. Paul's references to 'church' which are broader than one local assembly, could, arguable, include saints who are asleep in Christ as well.



Just because a trumpet sound was heard, you assume the rapture? There was the sound of a trumpet at Sinai. Does that mean the Israelites were raptured? There were trumpets at Jericho. Were the Israelites raptured up at that time? John was told 'come up hither'. John, one person, in a vision.

It's ironic how many pre-tribbers will pride themselves on being literal in their interpretation. But what you are proposing is a heavily allegorical interpretation. The issue shouldn't be open to debate since II Thessalonians 1 is very direct and lets us know that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, when he comes to be glorified in the saints. 'Church' and 'saints' are both mentioned as present when Jesus comes back. Chapter 2 tells us that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. Paul makes it clear that these events occur at the same time.



Again, this is such a weak argument, especially compared to the explicit direct statements of scripture. God was able to pour out his judgments on Egypt without splashing them on His people in the Old Testament. Do you think the tribulational saints are 'appointed unto wrath.' It is clear that they will endure some suffering. Why do you think God would send tribualtional saints through wrath if you think anyone here during that time must be experiencing God's wrath? If they are here and don't experience God's wrath, then why would the 'not appointed unto wrath' be an argument for the pre-trib rapture.



Of course there is. The passage that says to comfort one another with these words is telling believers not to mourn when someone dies as those who have no hope. The saints who die in Christ will be resurrected. That is comfort to those whose Christian relatives pass away.



I believe I address that. I Thessalonians shows us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and they that are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in their air.

We also need to consider that the angels will be with Christ,

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

So the armies coming with Jesus is not a pre-trib argument either.




In Revelation 13:10 and 14:12, we see that the saints written about in Revelation have faith. They are believers. So do you think they will suffer God's wrath? Do you think they are 'appointed unto wrath'? Are they objects of God's wrath? Going through the tribulation does not equal being under God's wrath.




The wrath of God has to do with God being angry, not with being at a certain location during a certain period of time.

How do you deal with the direct teachings of scripture on the issue, Paul's writings? How do you reconcile II Thessalonians with pre-trib? How do you reconcile pre-trib with the church receiving rest at Jesus coming when he comes to execute vengence on them that believe not and to be glorified in His saints? How do you reconcile this with the man of sin also being destroyed at the brightness of His coming? How can you get more than one coming of Christ out of the wording of II Thessalonians 1?

Why does Paul write of they that are Christ's being made alive at Christ's coming if the resurrection is supposed to happen seven years before His coming?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,147
1,783
113

The biggest riddle is if can the rapture happens at the return of Christ, WHo is left laive on earth for Christ to rule. A since no human would be left alive on earth, they were either raptured by God or killed by him..


That only leaves Amil, Pre-trib or mid trib.


Where do you get the idea that God kills the rest of humanity when Jesus comes back? Why would a post-tribber have to think that all the people who aren't resurrected die any more than a pre-tribber would?

The version of pre-trib I was taught had survivors left in human bodies for the saints to rule over.


 
Jan 26, 2016
382
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You said rapture is a fairy tale. (you did not say pre-trib, you said rapture period)

I proved rapture (latin to be caught up) is biblical. and not man made

Are you going to admit you were wrong or not?

Waiting.
Yes sir, I do believe in a rapture of believers who are alive at Jesus coming to greet Him in the air and be a sort of Royal escort as He comes back. So yes sir, i do believe in a rapture if that is the term you want to use. I don't like the term rapture because Tim Lahaye has exploited it for financial reasons
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,147
1,783
113
One thing about the pretrib rapture doctrine. It puts the whole deal on Jesus,where our focus belongs.

This should be the core of any believer.This the correct starting place.
Any other position will fail.

I can not fathom a position,at this late hour,that PURPOSEFULLY,places a hope that one will overcome through some "preparedness", other than being full of oil,as were the five wise virgins,for even the foolish agreed in the grooms soon appearance.

You guys do not even anticipate the King. You anticipate the false King,and mock his wise virgins.


As ridiculous as that is,it pales,to me,in the notion that you guys see no red flags in the anahilation of your position,nor any red flags that your position has you anticipating a false Christ.

I pray alongside Jesus.

"Come Lord Jesus" ...."Your bride awaits you"
I had an idea for a film along the lines of 'Left Behind' except post-trib.

Lots of people follow the beast. They rationalize, "He can't be the anti-Christ because the rapture hasn't happened yet. And I am eternally saved, because I repeated a prayer after a preacher once."
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
112
63
Hi eternally grateful, May God's Love fill your soul,

You are right about Paul not saying when the resurrection would happen.
But can you explain how the 7yr-mill pre trib theory fits into Paul's timeline without adding a resurrection?
 
Jan 26, 2016
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I had an idea for a film along the lines of 'Left Behind' except post-trib.

Lots of people follow the beast. They rationalize, "He can't be the anti-Christ because the rapture hasn't happened yet. And I am eternally saved, because I repeated a prayer after a preacher once."
I like your thinking! :) I also believe this is how ppl will be fooled into following the AC
 
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Armini3

Guest
though I agree with you of no evidence for pre trib unless a fast tongue an a juggling act is used abra-ca-dabra as for regarding "he who restrains" would be the spirit who's is straining (trickling threw if you will) the powers of darkness, off the face of thee earth but not out of our hearts. (ill let you marinate on that thought. God bless.
Would you agree with me that the resurrection of the dead happens right before the rapture of the church?

The resurrection occurs 'at his coming.' So how can you place the rapture BEFORE his coming, if Paul teaches that the resurrection occurs 'at his coming' and that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord together into the air?




First of all, I don't quite follow your argument. Are you saying that he that restrains must refers to the church because the word does not agree in grammatical gender with 'ekklesia'?

Also, I notice that a lot of pre-tribbers read 'the church' or the idea of 'the Holy Spirit' into this passage, then treat the verse as if it argues for pre-trib. The verse doesn't teach pre-trib. Their presupposition does.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes sir, I do believe in a rapture of believers who are alive at Jesus coming to greet Him in the air and be a sort of Royal escort as He comes back. So yes sir, i do believe in a rapture if that is the term you want to use. I don't like the term rapture because Tim Lahaye has exploited it for financial reasons
Then please stop attacking people and claiming rapture is a man made theory, when it is not, as you just admited

Who cares about what Tim lahaye did, Thats in Gods hands, lets stick to facts and not worry about what others may or may not have done. The pre trib rapture belief preceded tim lahaye by years,, All he did was what many did, and tried to make a movie about it..
 
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popeye

Guest
Hi Nikki84,

This the riddle that no pre-trib can answer,

1 Cor 15:23-24 Paul says that there are 2 resurrections.
The first was when Jesus rose.
The second at His coming.
Then comes the end, when the kingdom (finished) is delivered to the Father.

The second resurrection cannot be followed by a 7 yr trib/mill, because Paul says that it is the end.

If you say that the church is raptured out before this you must add a resurrection between the first two making 3.

Paul showed only 2.

How can you resolve this?
I thought your main deal was interpreting sybolism?

"first fruits"

You do not understand that do you?

First fruits is part of the same harvest. It had to do with offering to God a part of the same harvest.

So basic.

It is found in Leviticus.

Harvest is 4 parts. First fruits,main,corners,gleaners.

Now how did an expert at symbolism leave out a no brainer?


No,you have no riddle,no silly smoking gun.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest


Where do you get the idea that God kills the rest of humanity when Jesus comes back? Why would a post-tribber have to think that all the people who aren't resurrected die any more than a pre-tribber would?


Maybe the bible. When Christ returns he kills all who have not taken the number of the beast. Even Jesus said, whoever endures to the end would be saved, A non believer does not endure, they are at war with Christ.

Why would jesus take all saved people. when he promised that whoever was alive at his return would be saved?

That makes no sense.

The version of pre-trib I was taught had survivors left in human bodies for the saints to rule over.
serviving Christians.

Not surviving enemies..

WHy bother protecting the woman (israel) and telling the church to endure to the end, If your just gonna be raptured.