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I am going to try to give an example of the difference between walking in the flesh vs walking in the spirit, or being carnal vs being spiritual. Perhaps not a perfect example but one that will shed light on what it is to walk in the spirit.
Let's just say that before I was born from above, I was a thief. Now I am a child of God and want nothing more than to live a life that is well pleasing to Him.
So, one day I'm walking along and I'm looking at all the shops on the street. I come across a jewelry store and I notice a piece of jewelry that is just perfect and I just love it.
Old man way of walking:
Oh that is nice! I must have that but I do not have money to buy it.
And I start to think about how easy it would be for me to go in and get a five finger discount on that piece.
Then, I struggle because I know stealing is not something I should do now that I am a child of God. There is a battle within but, with (my own) effort, I walk on.
Whew! I sure am glad I didn't sin!!!
New man way of walking:
Oh that is nice! What a beautiful piece of jewelry.
And I walk on. No struggle within … no battle against the flesh.
Why? Because the thoughts of the new man with the mind of Christ do not even consider thoughts that the old man with the carnal mind allow.
God is able to keep us from falling. His strength and ability is able to keep our thoughts focused on those things that are pleasing to Him so that the flesh and its desires do not lead us away from Him. We just get to the point where we recognize the flesh for what it is and we decide that our fellowship with the Father is more needful to us than the momentary satisfaction of the flesh.
Any time we believe the commandments of God are burdensome, we are carnal and we have been drawn back into the flesh.
1 John 5:13 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Let's just say that before I was born from above, I was a thief. Now I am a child of God and want nothing more than to live a life that is well pleasing to Him.
So, one day I'm walking along and I'm looking at all the shops on the street. I come across a jewelry store and I notice a piece of jewelry that is just perfect and I just love it.
Old man way of walking:
Oh that is nice! I must have that but I do not have money to buy it.
And I start to think about how easy it would be for me to go in and get a five finger discount on that piece.
Then, I struggle because I know stealing is not something I should do now that I am a child of God. There is a battle within but, with (my own) effort, I walk on.
Whew! I sure am glad I didn't sin!!!
New man way of walking:
Oh that is nice! What a beautiful piece of jewelry.
And I walk on. No struggle within … no battle against the flesh.
Why? Because the thoughts of the new man with the mind of Christ do not even consider thoughts that the old man with the carnal mind allow.
God is able to keep us from falling. His strength and ability is able to keep our thoughts focused on those things that are pleasing to Him so that the flesh and its desires do not lead us away from Him. We just get to the point where we recognize the flesh for what it is and we decide that our fellowship with the Father is more needful to us than the momentary satisfaction of the flesh.
Any time we believe the commandments of God are burdensome, we are carnal and we have been drawn back into the flesh.
1 John 5:13 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
P
Friend, no one ever said it wasn't a struggle. But nowhere does Paul say he sinned often/frequently/daily.
Just because you are tempted doesn't mean you cave to that temptation. You need to stop being a weak-kneed "christian" and stand strong.
I struggle, but I don't cave.
You believe Paul to not be able to be obedient to the word, to his own teaching. That is beyond foolish.
Just because you are tempted doesn't mean you cave to that temptation. You need to stop being a weak-kneed "christian" and stand strong.
I struggle, but I don't cave.
You believe Paul to not be able to be obedient to the word, to his own teaching. That is beyond foolish.
When the Messiah spoke about the soul being perfected, one has to realize that he is speaking to Israel in term of the Law of Moses. One of the first accounts of a man being perfect before Yahweh is Noah and Abram. Moses wrote in Genesis:“… Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with Elohim (God, Gen 6:9).” Abram was also considered perfect by Yahweh Elohim, for Moses wrote: “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Yahweh (the LORD) appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect (Gen. 17:1).”
Now one may ask: what does it mean to be “perfect with Yahweh?” Obviously it cannot mean that a man is infallible in judgments and perfect in his actions. If this were the case then man would not need a savior.
Now the Hebrew word for ’perfect’ is ‘tamiym’ (taw-meem’); from OT:8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: OT:8549 (Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.). The Hebrew word ‘tamiym’ is also used in the King James Version of the Bible to mean - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.
In the New Testament which was written in Greek the word for perfect is ‘teleios’ (tel’-i-os); from NT:5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with NT:3588) completeness: Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. (Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Perfection of mankind with Yahweh refers to the integrity of the heart and obedience to the truth of His words. It is from the heart and mind that man’s actions are made manifest. So if the heart and mind is truthful then the action is truthful. In the case with Noah and Abraham it was their belief in Yahweh that made them perfect.
http://www.plim.org/Perfect.htm
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness,
and all these things will be given to you as well.
Now one may ask: what does it mean to be “perfect with Yahweh?” Obviously it cannot mean that a man is infallible in judgments and perfect in his actions. If this were the case then man would not need a savior.
Now the Hebrew word for ’perfect’ is ‘tamiym’ (taw-meem’); from OT:8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: OT:8549 (Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.). The Hebrew word ‘tamiym’ is also used in the King James Version of the Bible to mean - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.
In the New Testament which was written in Greek the word for perfect is ‘teleios’ (tel’-i-os); from NT:5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with NT:3588) completeness: Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. (Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Perfection of mankind with Yahweh refers to the integrity of the heart and obedience to the truth of His words. It is from the heart and mind that man’s actions are made manifest. So if the heart and mind is truthful then the action is truthful. In the case with Noah and Abraham it was their belief in Yahweh that made them perfect.
http://www.plim.org/Perfect.htm
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness,
and all these things will be given to you as well.
Do you believe Matthew 5:48 is speaking of sin?
If you read Matt 5:48 in context, the instruction has to do with loving others (including our enemies). God loves all mankind. He takes no pleasure in the death of those who never turn to Him (Ez 18:23). If we could love those who hate us and who curse us, we would be perfect even as Father who is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If you read Matt 5:48 in context, the instruction has to do with loving others (including our enemies). God loves all mankind. He takes no pleasure in the death of those who never turn to Him (Ez 18:23). If we could love those who hate us and who curse us, we would be perfect even as Father who is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Phil...you left out the rest of my words in the quote.........the definition of the word "paramount" stays the same and I used that word on purpose as I do know the meaning of it......it's the way you changed what I said when using the word that is being "twisted"
Here is what you said below (POST #56 )...and that is NOT what I said...( this is the "twist" )
Post #56 This is your comment:
The first bold: "The importance of finding out what Christ has already done for us in His finished work is of "higher importance than" walking by the spirit within us.
Here is my response to you about how you "twisted" my words in the above post...
My post #62
Well Phil......you are twisting my words again..I did not say that knowing what Christ has done for us is
"higher importance" then walking in the Spirit. I said knowing what Christ has already done for us is paramount to understanding how to walk in the spirit. Another way of saying it would be...grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What I wrote is plain to understand....find out what Christ has done for us and that we are called sons/children of God now....what does all this mean?....just mediate on it and I believe you will see what is being said....but if not..it's ok..Bless you phil...
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I get tired of these discussions. In the thread someone has clearly declared that sin does not matter as a christian.
When I comment on a position, to be honest I am not interested who holds to the position or not, it is just this position is so clear in its logic. If someone declares their future sin is forgiven, and then they willing choose to sin, that is simply wrong.
Many, many times people say it does not matter. Now some have said when I say this I am accusing the whole forum of doing this which obviously is not true. It is tiring why such a discussion happens. For some, if I declare their beliefs I am slandering them because I do not say it in a positive light. I know muslims who believe the same idea. It does not make it right.
Hypocracy for me is holding a position which by its nature becomes self condemning. Now I do not know if you truly hold such a position, I am just commenting on this position, and I see examples of it all the time.
I do find it odd how people can say they think sin is wrong, yet claim they continually knowingly sin and do nothing about it.
Now either they are slaves to the behaviour they condemn themselves for, or a knowingly choosing to rebel. Which is it?
If this is their testimony, how is it that I am condemned as a hypocrite for saying I do not live like this?
When I comment on a position, to be honest I am not interested who holds to the position or not, it is just this position is so clear in its logic. If someone declares their future sin is forgiven, and then they willing choose to sin, that is simply wrong.
Many, many times people say it does not matter. Now some have said when I say this I am accusing the whole forum of doing this which obviously is not true. It is tiring why such a discussion happens. For some, if I declare their beliefs I am slandering them because I do not say it in a positive light. I know muslims who believe the same idea. It does not make it right.
Hypocracy for me is holding a position which by its nature becomes self condemning. Now I do not know if you truly hold such a position, I am just commenting on this position, and I see examples of it all the time.
I do find it odd how people can say they think sin is wrong, yet claim they continually knowingly sin and do nothing about it.
Now either they are slaves to the behaviour they condemn themselves for, or a knowingly choosing to rebel. Which is it?
If this is their testimony, how is it that I am condemned as a hypocrite for saying I do not live like this?
I do not like when people use the word twist. It is implying someone is intentionally changing words.
What I observe most often is simply a statement of interpretation of someones position, which may be wrong or may be right.
I am called a legalist, pharisee, but I am neither of these things.
If I see someone say they are perfect in spirit yet walk in sinful flesh, I would call them sinning. They then tell me I am slandering them for openly declaring their failure. It is difficult to slander someone with their own position and words.
Jesus calls me holy, pure, redeemed, a child of God. If Jesus calls me this for walking in repentance and righteousness, then Amen.
By the way I do not loose my salvation for sinning, I am just grieved. I apologise if I have hurt someone through my language, I am just stating my frustration with to me obvious absurd contradictions. Walking righteously is walking with Christ in love and life. If sin does come, we repent, confess and get right with God. Simple.
What I observe most often is simply a statement of interpretation of someones position, which may be wrong or may be right.
I am called a legalist, pharisee, but I am neither of these things.
If I see someone say they are perfect in spirit yet walk in sinful flesh, I would call them sinning. They then tell me I am slandering them for openly declaring their failure. It is difficult to slander someone with their own position and words.
Jesus calls me holy, pure, redeemed, a child of God. If Jesus calls me this for walking in repentance and righteousness, then Amen.
By the way I do not loose my salvation for sinning, I am just grieved. I apologise if I have hurt someone through my language, I am just stating my frustration with to me obvious absurd contradictions. Walking righteously is walking with Christ in love and life. If sin does come, we repent, confess and get right with God. Simple.
R
PJ, we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus:
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" 1 Pet 1:18-19
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" 1 Pet 1:18-19
I apologise thepsalmist if you feel I was saying you said sin does not matter.
I am saying holding to the position future sin is forgiven, so when you sin it does not matter, because it is already forgiven while you sin, is an absurd idea. We had someone tell exactly how this worked. Again a few agreed with this very idea, as if in the kingdom sinning is just part of the walk.
Now I know sticking to a theology is very commendable, but the idea that a person can sin, be in rebellion but Christ looks at this with forgiveness and mercy is not part of scripture. We are forgiven for repented sin, when we walk in humbleness and faith before the Lord.
Now you are accusing me of sinning by stating this reality. Now whether you hold to this position or not is not my concern, my concern is the position itself. It is between you and the Lord where you stand.
It does disturb me that so much is taken wrongly, and such a concept sees the light of day, but confessing "christians" are walking without grief at their rebellion. Can a christian, willingly re-crucify Christ and yet claim there are no problems with this?
I am saying holding to the position future sin is forgiven, so when you sin it does not matter, because it is already forgiven while you sin, is an absurd idea. We had someone tell exactly how this worked. Again a few agreed with this very idea, as if in the kingdom sinning is just part of the walk.
Now I know sticking to a theology is very commendable, but the idea that a person can sin, be in rebellion but Christ looks at this with forgiveness and mercy is not part of scripture. We are forgiven for repented sin, when we walk in humbleness and faith before the Lord.
Now you are accusing me of sinning by stating this reality. Now whether you hold to this position or not is not my concern, my concern is the position itself. It is between you and the Lord where you stand.
It does disturb me that so much is taken wrongly, and such a concept sees the light of day, but confessing "christians" are walking without grief at their rebellion. Can a christian, willingly re-crucify Christ and yet claim there are no problems with this?
We are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and cleansed, and purified, but it is we who walk, and it is our walk the shows our cleansing. It does not justify us, but it stands as a witness to the work of Christ within us. If our walk was still as slaves to sin, of what value is Christs redemption and cross. Is there no victory in your life and heart, no setting free of love to reign supreme, do you not know of the resurrected life, or of the joy of your salvation?
If not, what are you walking in, and how are you different from when you did not know Christ?
If not, what are you walking in, and how are you different from when you did not know Christ?
2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
What part of the believer is "in Christ?" His soul is in Christ, the inner man. Everything about the inner man has been made new; justification, redemption, washing, sanctification, etc... The body, however, is not in Christ. Therein lies the battle. If a believer walks after the flesh, the body is in rebellion, but the inner man is still in Christ.
Sin grieves the Holy Spirit that seals us for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Sin can cause a believer to lose inheritance and rewards. Sin has a huge impact on the believer, but salvation is secured.
1 Corinthians 3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Here we have the Lord giving us an example of a believer, his soul saved, but his works in the flesh did not abide the fire in judgment. That man will suffer loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Why did the Lord give us this example? Because it's a BIG DEAL to lose His rewards and not please Him! The Lord is the giver of perfect gifts. He wants us to receive a full reward.
What part of the believer is "in Christ?" His soul is in Christ, the inner man. Everything about the inner man has been made new; justification, redemption, washing, sanctification, etc... The body, however, is not in Christ. Therein lies the battle. If a believer walks after the flesh, the body is in rebellion, but the inner man is still in Christ.
Sin grieves the Holy Spirit that seals us for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Sin can cause a believer to lose inheritance and rewards. Sin has a huge impact on the believer, but salvation is secured.
1 Corinthians 3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Here we have the Lord giving us an example of a believer, his soul saved, but his works in the flesh did not abide the fire in judgment. That man will suffer loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Why did the Lord give us this example? Because it's a BIG DEAL to lose His rewards and not please Him! The Lord is the giver of perfect gifts. He wants us to receive a full reward.
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T
I accept your apology, Peter, thank you.
I personally take sin very seriously ... when I do something I know is wrong I feel terrible about it ... I acknowledge it to God, I ask Him to help me to not do it again...and I take pains to be careful about it in future.
That said, my life has been made new since I have been reborn. I would never live a licentious life - in part from love for my Father, in part from fear of disappointing my Father. And I think anyone truly in Christ would agree with me on that.
I don't believe that if I slip up and commit an errant sin that I will lose my salvation for it though ... The Lord knows I will slip up from time to time ... and He also would not have adopted me if He thought I would use grace as a licence to sin.
I have been made holy inwardly and He is making my outward person more holy as I walk with Him.
I personally take sin very seriously ... when I do something I know is wrong I feel terrible about it ... I acknowledge it to God, I ask Him to help me to not do it again...and I take pains to be careful about it in future.
That said, my life has been made new since I have been reborn. I would never live a licentious life - in part from love for my Father, in part from fear of disappointing my Father. And I think anyone truly in Christ would agree with me on that.
I don't believe that if I slip up and commit an errant sin that I will lose my salvation for it though ... The Lord knows I will slip up from time to time ... and He also would not have adopted me if He thought I would use grace as a licence to sin.
I have been made holy inwardly and He is making my outward person more holy as I walk with Him.