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B
I never claimed to be any kind of scholar. I do know that I have loved the word of God for over forty years, enough to have an opinion of what it says. Long enough to recognize whether I'm speaking with someone with the Nobel mind set of a Berean, or the judgmental mindset of a Pharisee. Better to be struck by a friend than to be kissed by an enemy. Be a Berean, the Pharisees are were worthless Shepards. Peace!
B
What's your beef. Is anything to hard for the almighty, eternal CREATOR of heaven and earth. If He created a Jewish body for Jesus to tabernacle in. It would not seem to be any more difficult to do the same for the Holy Spirit and Himself. I don't limit God, maybe that's my problem. The way I read the bible, I would be hard pressed to say what Father can not do. I'm just say'n.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/107274-lords-2-witnesses-7-spirits.html
^^ That thread may interest you
^^
^^ That thread may interest you
^^
B
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/107274-lords-2-witnesses-7-spirits.html
^^ That thread may interest you ^^
^^ That thread may interest you
^^
That is what I have been saying for years.
You are welcome. I found a couple of other similar threads but that is the one
I knew was closest to your view. Here are two others I found:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/74018-two-witnesses-were-already-here.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/131726-two-witnesses.html
I knew was closest to your view. Here are two others I found:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/74018-two-witnesses-were-already-here.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/131726-two-witnesses.html
The answer is easy. God has choosen Jesus to come into the flesh to rescue the world through his blood and death at the cross. This was prophecied in the OT and fullfilled in NT. No more is nesassary!
That the father and the Holy Spirit will come into the flesh should be for what? No mention in the scripture! We can think what we want and belive what we want. Without scripture proof it is nothing worth.
That the father and the Holy Spirit will come into the flesh should be for what? No mention in the scripture! We can think what we want and belive what we want. Without scripture proof it is nothing worth.
B
And just because your theology leads you to believe God won't do this, that could just mean that your theology is wrong. I didn't just come up with this by reading fortune cookies and dreaming about it. I'm telling you that its in the bible. It's ok to ponder the idea without excepting it as gospel. Just give yourself permission to look into it. Not a sin. Berean spirit!
Of course your thought is interesting, but their is no scriptural reason to think that the 2 witness in revelation 11,3 and 17,6 are in flesh coming God father and Holy Spirit. If you compare with Jesus coming in flesh this is in the scripture clear prepared and explained f.e. John chapter 1. This we cant find for your theory. So far I know it is not realy clear who these two are. one meaning is that it is Elia and Henoch, because these to people didnt died. They are both enabled from the Lord Jesus to do that ministrie.
B
It must be so nice for those of you that know it all so perfectly that you just say, no thank you and slam the door. I guess I am cursed with the knowledge of the verse that says: We know in part, we see through a glass darkly, we prophecy in part. You insist on coming with the mind of a Pharisee. Are we not admonished to be like Bereans? Can you not see?
Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah John did die...
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Also:
He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.”
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
John did die...And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Also:
He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.”
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
If I may offer this,
The two witnesses would represent the Law and the Prophets. They are symbolic of the people of Israel (the natural branches).
The time frame of their story would be; God's judgement against the temple (70 ad), the times of the Gentiles, the restoration of Jerusalem (to the natural branches), and the appearance of Jesus (last trump-world ends).
We are living in the time that they are "witnessing" in Jerusalem.
The Law and the Prophets are witnessing right now.
Remember that Jesus said "you search the scriptures....in them is eternal life........they bear witness of Me Jn 5:39.
There are only two because the natural branches do not accept Jesus, if they did there would be 3.
The fire, rain, etc. they are talking about is the effects of God's truths (Bible, O.T.)against the unbelieving.
Fire God's Word judging the world.
Lack of rain as the drought of not having God's Word preached.
If any one will hurt them- he who lives by the sword-God's word reaffirmed,(think of WW2, evil attacked the Jews, look what happened.
I gotta go, I'll check you when I get back.
Satan's lies can usually be understood as,
There is no God,
Satan is God,
God and I are the same,
Man is God,
Here the theme might be, Israel is not God's people.
But their restoration proves to the nations that God's Word is true.
The two witnesses would represent the Law and the Prophets. They are symbolic of the people of Israel (the natural branches).
The time frame of their story would be; God's judgement against the temple (70 ad), the times of the Gentiles, the restoration of Jerusalem (to the natural branches), and the appearance of Jesus (last trump-world ends).
We are living in the time that they are "witnessing" in Jerusalem.
The Law and the Prophets are witnessing right now.
Remember that Jesus said "you search the scriptures....in them is eternal life........they bear witness of Me Jn 5:39.
There are only two because the natural branches do not accept Jesus, if they did there would be 3.
The fire, rain, etc. they are talking about is the effects of God's truths (Bible, O.T.)against the unbelieving.
Fire God's Word judging the world.
Lack of rain as the drought of not having God's Word preached.
If any one will hurt them- he who lives by the sword-God's word reaffirmed,(think of WW2, evil attacked the Jews, look what happened.
I gotta go, I'll check you when I get back.
Satan's lies can usually be understood as,
There is no God,
Satan is God,
God and I are the same,
Man is God,
Here the theme might be, Israel is not God's people.
But their restoration proves to the nations that God's Word is true.
Yes, i agree. We should take the scripture to proof. Nothing else I am doing. I see in the 2 witnesses, 2 real persons, in spite that others see something different. like it as a picture for OT/AT. I would prefer that this persons are Elia and Henoch. I dont say that i am right. But I also cant see a scripture proof for your theory.
So, we will see it by the time.
So, we will see it by the time.
If it were God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,it would have to be a visible manifestation of them,which they would have to create human bodies for themselves,but it is not them,for Christ is the last human form that God will show on earth,and when Christ returns He will have a glorified body,and has a glorified body now.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Also we see it is not God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,for they are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth,so the two witnesses,are separate from God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,although they are led by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus did many wonderful works on earth,which no individual person can duplicate,but Jesus said the saints will do greater works than Him,because He goes to the Father,which means collectively they will impact more people,for they will impact the world,where Jesus impacted Israel,but it is all done by the leading of the Spirit.
Jesus said that if you seen Him,you seen the Father,and it is the Father that dwells in Him,He does the works.
Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you,which means if you are led of the Spirit,you will show the kingdom of God's ways upon earth.
A saint that is led of the Spirit,will do the same things,impact things in the same way,have an influence upon people,the same way Jesus did,and it will be God in them doing the works,and God's ways being shown through them,the kingdom of God.
So God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,do not need to prepare bodies for themselves,to be the two witnesses,because any saint that is led of the Spirit,is God doing work through them,just the same as if God prepared a body for Himself,and witnessed to them,so God could use them,and work through them to witness,which would be the same as if Jesus did it,God manifest in the flesh.
But of course this is if the person is led of the Spirit,and we can falter from time to time,and sometimes might not allow God to work though us,because we want to dabble in sin a tad bit,and might waver because of persecution,and not be bold like we should,in other words we can allow the Spirit to lead us,and we will act like Christ,but being we are not with Christ yet,the flesh can still cause us from time to time,not allow the Spirit to lead us,if we allow that to happen.
But the two witnesses will not have that problem,for they are already standing before the God of the earth,so they cannot falter,and cannot fail,and cannot do their own will,but only the Father's will,for they do not have the choice to rebel,for they already made the choice beforehand to be with God.
I do not believe they are angels,for God does not use angels in flesh to promote His kingdom,and witness about it,but He uses people,because the Church consists of people,so they would have to be people,and they cannot be people born before they witness,being a young age when they witness,for the two witnesses stand before God that is not on this earth.
Some people think it is Moses,and Elijah,but if it is two people,they would have be very influential,and important people,in the Bible,pertaining to the will of God,which those 2 would fit that description,and both of them was with Jesus,when He transfigured Himself,which the disciples saw.
God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,will not be the two witnesses,and it would not be angels,for the church consists of people,so He will use people to witness concerning His Church,and they cannot be born on earth around this time,because they are standing before the God of the earth,so it has to be two people that are part of God's kingdom right now,being with Him,and not on this earth right now.
Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Also we see it is not God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,for they are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth,so the two witnesses,are separate from God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,although they are led by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus did many wonderful works on earth,which no individual person can duplicate,but Jesus said the saints will do greater works than Him,because He goes to the Father,which means collectively they will impact more people,for they will impact the world,where Jesus impacted Israel,but it is all done by the leading of the Spirit.
Jesus said that if you seen Him,you seen the Father,and it is the Father that dwells in Him,He does the works.
Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you,which means if you are led of the Spirit,you will show the kingdom of God's ways upon earth.
A saint that is led of the Spirit,will do the same things,impact things in the same way,have an influence upon people,the same way Jesus did,and it will be God in them doing the works,and God's ways being shown through them,the kingdom of God.
So God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,do not need to prepare bodies for themselves,to be the two witnesses,because any saint that is led of the Spirit,is God doing work through them,just the same as if God prepared a body for Himself,and witnessed to them,so God could use them,and work through them to witness,which would be the same as if Jesus did it,God manifest in the flesh.
But of course this is if the person is led of the Spirit,and we can falter from time to time,and sometimes might not allow God to work though us,because we want to dabble in sin a tad bit,and might waver because of persecution,and not be bold like we should,in other words we can allow the Spirit to lead us,and we will act like Christ,but being we are not with Christ yet,the flesh can still cause us from time to time,not allow the Spirit to lead us,if we allow that to happen.
But the two witnesses will not have that problem,for they are already standing before the God of the earth,so they cannot falter,and cannot fail,and cannot do their own will,but only the Father's will,for they do not have the choice to rebel,for they already made the choice beforehand to be with God.
I do not believe they are angels,for God does not use angels in flesh to promote His kingdom,and witness about it,but He uses people,because the Church consists of people,so they would have to be people,and they cannot be people born before they witness,being a young age when they witness,for the two witnesses stand before God that is not on this earth.
Some people think it is Moses,and Elijah,but if it is two people,they would have be very influential,and important people,in the Bible,pertaining to the will of God,which those 2 would fit that description,and both of them was with Jesus,when He transfigured Himself,which the disciples saw.
God,the Father,and the Holy Spirit,will not be the two witnesses,and it would not be angels,for the church consists of people,so He will use people to witness concerning His Church,and they cannot be born on earth around this time,because they are standing before the God of the earth,so it has to be two people that are part of God's kingdom right now,being with Him,and not on this earth right now.
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Hi brother mpaper 345, God be with you,
In Zek 4:1-3 it tells the vision that is seen
In v 6 it tells the meaning of the vision, "This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel," so this is a vision to tell him that things are done by God's will, not by the will of men. Not by the strength of Zerubbabel, but by the Spirit of God.
So this would be a vision of God's word at that time to him.
In v11, it is asked about the details of this vision of "the Word of the Lord v6". Here is what it was (as I understand it),
The lampstand would represent God's light of understanding of Him through His Word.
The oil would be the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God's Love) flowing to the lamps, without end.
The two olive trees (v3) are God's word through Israel (natural branches).
The two "branches" are the word of God to Israel, the Law and the Prophets.
The two witness in Zek. are God's Word.
The two witness are still God's word. The idea that they are individual "human souls" placed in physical bodies is not consistent here.
Throughout the time of the vision, up to now, and for all eternity, the two trees (God's Word) will stand beside the lampstand and the anointing oil of the Holy Spirit in God's presence. They will never leave.
The two witnesses are God's Word (O.T., natural branches) restored to the Holy city. They represent the nation of Israel.
Any thoughts on this?
In Zek 4:1-3 it tells the vision that is seen
In v 6 it tells the meaning of the vision, "This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel," so this is a vision to tell him that things are done by God's will, not by the will of men. Not by the strength of Zerubbabel, but by the Spirit of God.
So this would be a vision of God's word at that time to him.
In v11, it is asked about the details of this vision of "the Word of the Lord v6". Here is what it was (as I understand it),
The lampstand would represent God's light of understanding of Him through His Word.
The oil would be the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God's Love) flowing to the lamps, without end.
The two olive trees (v3) are God's word through Israel (natural branches).
The two "branches" are the word of God to Israel, the Law and the Prophets.
The two witness in Zek. are God's Word.
The two witness are still God's word. The idea that they are individual "human souls" placed in physical bodies is not consistent here.
Throughout the time of the vision, up to now, and for all eternity, the two trees (God's Word) will stand beside the lampstand and the anointing oil of the Holy Spirit in God's presence. They will never leave.
The two witnesses are God's Word (O.T., natural branches) restored to the Holy city. They represent the nation of Israel.
Any thoughts on this?
very interesting post.
I think it has to start with the very verse and chapter of REV 11 who is speaking when it is said in verse 3 it appear it is Jesus or God speaking as to doing what ? Rev 11 :3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.".
:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
: 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
: 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
: 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. :
Why would this verse say Spirit of life entered them " FROM God if they were God and the holy Spirit?
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
it doesn't appear the context of this chapter to suggest that these two witnesses are God or the Holy Spirit. However, it does say that God sent them God empowered them God raised them from the dead. They are caled the two witnesses but the works by the power of God are them same as Moses and Elijah. I am not saying it them because the bible doesn't tell us who they are but who they are appears to be men who God sent.