lets have some Bible study shall we?

[Angela53510]

If I understand correctly then "we exist in a state of total subjectivity" ... could be a sociopath's slogan ... right?

I don't know if a true sociopath would actually care about whether things were subjective or not. They just spend their lives fulfilling every lust and fantasy.

But then again, perhaps you are right. Because a sociopath does use the excuse that only his desires, wants and needs count and compassion, empathy and love, (all godly characteristics) are not even on the radar.

Sadly, many post modern humanists think they are ethical. Because they are following whatever they want to, therefore anything they do is correct.

But in fact, this kind of moral subjectivity, this total subjectivism leads to nilhilsim. Nilhilsim is the state where because nothing is perceived to be real, nothing is real!

"Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

1. [h=3]Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy[/h]www.iep.utm.edu › nihilism"
   
   
   
   
   
   

Sadly, most nilihists who are the leaders in the post-modern movement, become depressed because nothing is worth living for. Voltaire, Sarte are two that come to mind off the top of my head. This is the only logical end of total subjectivity!

 

[PeterJens]

Now to those who do not understand concepts, knowing we cannot prove anything for certain, does not mean we cannot rely on the bible by faith as the truth.

It is just saying everything is seen through our own personal perspective, so we have to be careful to take the log out of our own eye before we see what others are saying.

It also should make us more careful how we listen and how we accept facts. We need to test them against what we know and carefully work through them to come to a conclusion. So everything should be looked at from as many different perspectives to get a reasonable position. Hopefully it should make us more cautious and less open to group movements, and more real with those we love and care for.

 

[thepsalmist]

I don't know if a true sociopath would actually care about whether things were subjective or not. They just spend their lives fulfilling every lust and fantasy.

But then again, perhaps you are right. Because a sociopath does use the excuse that only his desires, wants and needs count and compassion, empathy and love, (all godly characteristics) are not even on the radar.

Sadly, many post modern humanists think they are ethical. Because they are following whatever they want to, therefore anything they do is correct.

But in fact, this kind of moral subjectivity, this total subjectivism leads to nilhilsim. Nilhilsim is the state where because nothing is perceived to be real, nothing is real!

"Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

1. Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
   
   www.iep.utm.edu › nihilism"

Sadly, most nilihists who are the leaders in the post-modern movement, become depressed because nothing is worth living for. Voltaire, Sarte are two that come to mind off the top of my head. This is the only logical end of total subjectivity!

wow ... nothing is real to a nihilist? I wonder how they justify that to themselves ... that seems truly off the wall! Would that be called insane???

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Failing to walk in salvation does not equal loss of salvation.

Failing to walk in salvation affects the fellowship between God and the believer. The believer who stumbles is still a child of the Father. However, fellowship is broken and, until restored through acknowledgment/confession by the believer, the believer walks in darkness rather than in light (1 John 1:1-2:11).

What are you basing salvation on? Doing GOD's will or your nature (born again child of GOD)? Jesus said that only those who do the will of GOD will enter heaven. Not walking in one's salvation doesn't sound like it's doing the will of GOD.

 

[PeterJens]

You are such a total fake, Peter. You pontificate about so many things that you know absolutely nothing about!

Sorry angela, at every level this is a lie. I know something about the subject or I would not raise it.
I did a degree in science so I know enough at graduate level.
I have personal experience of mental illness in my family, so this is a sensitive and hurtful subject. Seeing someone destroyed through mental illness is no joke. I am also caring for someone with dementia.

Using the term absolutely nothing is an extreme term of abuse and undermining someone.
Have I upset you badly? Is this a sensitive subject for you?

I never thought touching on subjectivity, science and mental illness would generate such abuse.
But it must be something in your heart, of which this is the fruit.

I hope Jesus love finds a place in you, and learn to treat people better than you are treating me, God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

wow ... nothing is real to a nihilist? I wonder how they justify that to themselves ... that seems truly off the wall! Would that be called insane???

This is unfortunately true. Nihilism took root in the sixties and caused many to blow their lives away with drugs.
It is something that undermines much of our social thinking, but love literally is the cure.

When you curl up late at night and wonder where everything is, what do you need? A loving cuddle, to be told everything will be alright, and there is nothing to worry about.

That is what Jesus is giving us, but it is not a subjective experience it is real.
I have held these two worlds in my head for many years, but what works is when love flows. It is why Jesus's touch is so important, and why love flowing from loving people bring Gods reality to earth.

So though it is an important idea, subjectivity, in the context of Jesus, He is more important, and how he effects our lives.

 

[roaringkitten]

What are you basing salvation on? Doing GOD's will or your nature (born again child of GOD)? Jesus said that only those who do the will of GOD will enter heaven. Not walking in one's salvation doesn't sound like it's doing the will of GOD.

In other words:

You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.

When the Bible is plain as day:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5

 

[phil112]

In other words:


When the Bible is plain as day:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5

You folks that claim obedience is a work and you can't be saved doing works are the real legalists.
Disobedience is a work of sin and you can darn sure go to hell doing works of sin. You keep trying to parse obedience and make it into a work and doing so makes you obedient to satan.
If you're not for Christ you're against Him. You people better stop trying to justify your refusal to stop sinning. It will send you to the second death if you aren't careful.

 

[roaringkitten]

You folks that claim obedience is a work and you can't be saved doing works are the real legalists.
Disobedience is a work of sin and you can darn sure go to hell doing works of sin. You keep trying to parse obedience and make it into a work and doing so makes you obedient to satan.
If you're not for Christ you're against Him. You people better stop trying to justify your refusal to stop sinning. It will send you to the second death if you aren't careful.

In other words you believe that our works of righteousness saves us! You also said earlier:

If you are saved, your primary concern should be on learning the gospel. It is unseemly for youth to don arrogance and try to teach maturity.

How can one be saved unless they first 1)understand the gospel-(death, burial, resurrection-1 Cor 15:1-4) and then 2)obey the gospel by believing?(Rom 10:16) Our primary concern, and what us grace believers on CC keep affirming:

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think belief about salvation lost or not is a side issue. The core issue is what is a believer.
If a believer is an eternal being in the kingdom of heaven, redeemed to eternity, no matter their behaviour, then that leads to the idea salvation cannot be lost. It also leads to the idea belief in salvation whether lost or not is irrelevant because once in there is no breaking. In this model all you need is the minimum faith standards and that is the harvest carried in.

Now with this model, sin is all forgiven, and behaviour is just the product of the walk, but being carnal just means you enjoy the rush of lusts, but also get salvation at the end. Wehay, be a sinner and get heaven party as well. So so naive these righteous conformists, they should let their hair down and partyyyyyyyyyy.

And this is exactly what the son did in Luke 15. When he found himself in dire straits, he went back to his father.

And his father was watching for his son to return. Luke 15:20 But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him

Do you think God turns His back on His children when they stumble? No!!! He carefully watches over us and waits for us to return to Him so that He may bring us close to Him.

Now if this makes intellectual sense as a model, does it match with the apostles teaching and Jesus's intentions?

The teaching of the apostles and Jesus is that we are remain steadfast, we are to abide in the Vine. And further, if we fall short, we have a way back into the fellowship --- confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I do not think it does, and so I do not hold this model. I am not being unfair, but when you meet a drunk addict, your arguments need to be a little better than this.

The believer who continues in sin is not following the Lord Jesus Christ as instructed.

Again, Romans 6 --- What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


To continue in our old habit patterns after we have been born again is to subject ourselves to the bondage of sin from which the Lord Jesus Christ died to release us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What are you basing salvation on? Doing GOD's will or your nature (born again child of GOD)? Jesus said that only those who do the will of GOD will enter heaven. Not walking in one's salvation doesn't sound like it's doing the will of GOD.

The discussion relates to the believer who stumbles in his/her walk. If a believer slips in his/her walk, does that mean he/she is no longer a child of God?

 

[skylove7]

Sorry angela, at every level this is a lie. I know something about the subject or I would not raise it.
I did a degree in science so I know enough at graduate level.
I have personal experience of mental illness in my family, so this is a sensitive and hurtful subject. Seeing someone destroyed through mental illness is no joke. I am also caring for someone with dementia.

Using the term absolutely nothing is an extreme term of abuse and undermining someone.
Have I upset you badly? Is this a sensitive subject for you?

I never thought touching on subjectivity, science and mental illness would generate such abuse.
But it must be something in your heart, of which this is the fruit.

I hope Jesus love finds a place in you, and learn to treat people better than you are treating me, God bless you.

Oh PeterJens...
The frequency of your luminescant robe is too high again
You are never wrong are you?

It's squinting my eyes lol

 

[Angela53510]

Sorry angela, at every level this is a lie. I know something about the subject or I would not raise it.
I did a degree in science so I know enough at graduate level.
I have personal experience of mental illness in my family, so this is a sensitive and hurtful subject. Seeing someone destroyed through mental illness is no joke. I am also caring for someone with dementia.

Using the term absolutely nothing is an extreme term of abuse and undermining someone.
Have I upset you badly? Is this a sensitive subject for you?

I never thought touching on subjectivity, science and mental illness would generate such abuse.
But it must be something in your heart, of which this is the fruit.

I hope Jesus love finds a place in you, and learn to treat people better than you are treating me, God bless you.

I also have a degree in science. I am not sure what kind of science you were studying, but it sure wasn't the pursuit of knowledge and understanding through experimentation and observation. You cannot begin to do science, if you do not believe in an objective reality. Period!

And you have little knowledge even of the philosophy you are presenting here.

As for mental illness, I will confess to being upset that a serious disease is being presented as proof for post-modern humanism. It also belies the fact that with modern medicine and treatment, no one stays in a constant state of psychosis, unless they choose to be in that state. I deeply resent you using mental illness as a "proof" for subjectivity on behalf of all my friends who have suffered breakdowns because they are mentally ill, when there is not a mentally ill person on the planet who would willingly want to be mentally ill, although sometimes the side effects of the drugs, or the erroneous idea that they are "cured" causes them to go off meds.

So I will also add "hypocrite" to my terms about you. You just had called EG a bunch of nasty names, and you have the temerity to say that I am not treating people well? When all I am doing is confronting you, in love, as to the error of your subjective, post-human ways?

But I guess that your response is typical of a person who views the world through the lense of "total subjectivity." If you want to call people names, lie about your educational credentials etc, etc, then that is ok.

But when you are called on the nonsense you present here as fact, then that person is "abusive." And that you hope Jesus' love willl find a place in me? Again, this shows your complete lack and understanding of sanctification. Jesus' love has been in my heart for 35 years. And he will be the judge of the amazing changes he has done in my heart and life, not someone who is pretentious, pretends to know things he has never studied, and is free to call anyone names, but no one is allowed to point out that even the very definitions he purports to use are false.

 

[skylove7]

I love you so much Ang....
You didn't have to hit like on my comment last lol

I was learning things before the 'bible study' thread became the 'PeterJens' study thread
Sigh...
Typical

Okeee moving on lol

 

[BenFTW]

I love you so much Ang....
You didn't have to hit like on my comment last lol

I was learning things before the 'bible study' thread became the 'PeterJens' study thread
Sigh...
Typical

Okeee moving on lol

You can still learn stuff, from the thread. VVhat you are witnessing is called self-righteousness. Shall that be the new topic? lol

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The discussion relates to the believer who stumbles in his/her walk. If a believer slips in his/her walk, does that mean he/she is no longer a child of God?

Of course not, but I wouldn't call that failing to walk in salvation. That would be a failure within the walk.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Of course not, but I wouldn't call that failing to walk in salvation. That would be a failure within the walk.

k. That was not my terminology. I was responding to a comment made by Peter Jens. Have a very nice evening!

 

[PeterJens]

I also have a degree in science. I am not sure what kind of science you were studying, but it sure wasn't the pursuit of knowledge and understanding through experimentation and observation. You cannot begin to do science, if you do not believe in an objective reality. Period!

I am sorry but science is about repeated experiments which confirm a hypothesis. It is the fact the experiment can be repeated that confirms the conclusions, and is the basis of knowledge. That is all science is actually achieving.
It is better than mere speculation which has no proof. It is not objective truth, it is merely repeatable proof. I am surprised you do not understand the difference.

It is not abuse to say someone does not understand a simple idea like subjectivity, and basis their morality on actions done by self which is a completely subjective idea in and of itself. EG continually wants to tell me things which I am not saying and put me in a corner where I am not. But if you want to support him, that is your problem not mine.

Thankyou for the full frontal assault, very refreshing. It helps me learn truth is not important to some people who claim to follow Jesus. I wonder where you will be on that last day. I cannot take you seriously from now on, simply because you are not engaging is simple discussion which you are quite capable of, but alas choose not to. Welcome to the strange world of faith and polarisation. It is little wonder people walk away from fellowships wondering which truth the people think they are following.

 

[PeterJens]

One simple observation, if you have no standards, ofcourse those who follow them and desire to walk rightly can be made fun of and rebuked about failure and the issues of being in the world and not of it. But this is barely a good pursuit or something Jesus did. Rather he said blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.

It sounds rather like he actually supported this idea.

 

[BenFTW]

I am sorry but science is about repeated experiments which confirm a hypothesis. It is the fact the experiment can be repeated that confirms the conclusions, and is the basis of knowledge. That is all science is actually achieving.
It is better than mere speculation which has no proof. It is not objective truth, it is merely repeatable proof. I am surprised you do not understand the difference.

It is not abuse to say someone does not understand a simple idea like subjectivity, and basis their morality on actions done by self which is a completely subjective idea in and of itself. EG continually wants to tell me things which I am not saying and put me in a corner where I am not. But if you want to support him, that is your problem not mine.

Thankyou for the full frontal assault, very refreshing. It helps me learn truth is not important to some people who claim to follow Jesus. I wonder where you will be on that last day. I cannot take you seriously from now on, simply because you are not engaging is simple discussion which you are quite capable of, but alas choose not to. Welcome to the strange world of faith and polarisation. It is little wonder people walk away from fellowships wondering which truth the people think they are following.

You are accusing EG of doing something that you continually do. You continue to put words in other's mouths, saying that they encourage a doctrine of licentiousness. I see you perpetually put this straw man up and take it down but it isn't helping anyone because no one is purporting such a doctrine. That a person is no longer condemned in Christ is not the means by which licentiousness takes root. Licentiousness is of the flesh, and is not the fruit of God's grace that sets us free from sin's dominion.

Somehow you miss this and accuse others of putting forth this doctrine by assuming you are taking things to their "natural conclusions." No, it is clear that God's solution can at times be completely opposite to a natural/materialistic mind. VVho would think for example, that giving leads to receiving? That to give is in fact multiplication and not subtraction? Yet such a paradigm shift must be taken. Its paradoxical. In the same way, one thinks that boundaries that confine us and rules keep us on the straight and narrow. No. God's grace and freedom is what breaks sin's dominion.

God's solutions at times are quite paradoxical to what others might consider practical. Our freedom doesn't let loose a beast but rather allows us to walk as the new creation God made us to be.