The "Rapture"?

[Ahwatukee]

Here and gone dear brother. This is Rome dear brother:

No, it is not here and gone! The legs of iron represent Rome in its hay-day, when it was pure iron and strong. The ten-toed kingdom of iron and partly baked clay is the last kingdom, which has not yet come and which the beast will rule over with those ten kings (ten toes) under him, which the Rock (Jesus) will smash to pieces and which is blown away by the wind never to be found again, which represents the end of all human government.

Things are happening right now in the Middle East. We are more than half way through the 42 months of Rev 13. This is frightening and exciting. Sad you are missing it.

This just demonstrates that you have no understanding of end-time events and are only distorting the word of God. Believe me, when the world enters into that last seven years, the inhabitants of the earth will know it. The 1st seal rider on the white horse is that antichrist and needless to say, he has not yet been revealed. We have seen no seven year covenant being made with Israel. We have not seen the results of the 2nd seal red horse which takes peace from the earth so that men kill each other. We have not seen the 3rd seal black horse which represents world-wide famine. And we have not see the 4th seal rider pale horse where a fourth of the earth's population is killed as a result of those previous seals. Therefore, we cannot--as you claim--be half way through the 42 months i.e. that first 3 1/2 years.

When you see the church removed from the earth and you see a seven year treaty made with Israel, then you will know that the seven years has begun, as well as the on-set God's wrath. Again, your claim just demonstrates that you, along with others, do not understand the magnitude and severity of God's coming wrath. You have made a passive even that easily takes place in the background of history. But the wrath that is coming will have everyone's attention, for they will not be able to avoid it.

 

[popeye]

The reason that the Christian's in Syria and Iraq are being attacked is because, as I reminded you of so many times, they are suffering from the trials and tribulation that Jesus told us that we would have because of our faith in him. As usual, you are not making a distinction between those trials and tribulations and God's wrath, ergo, Syria and Iraq are not suffering the wrath of God, but the trials and tribulation of men and the powers of darkness. What is coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be God's direct wrath and is completely different from the common trials and tribulation that believer's suffer. Please keep this in mind before making these claims.

Wait till you get to the part where he tells you the rapture is after the millennium

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wait till you get to the part where he tells you the rapture is after the millennium

Oh Geezzz! Do I have to?

 

[DP]

You mentioned Matthew 24. The context of Matthew 24 is not about the Church. It is about the Jewish nation of Israel as we do not live on housetops in America because that is a middle eastern thing in Israel where you live on your roofs. We also don't have an issue working on the sabbath which they do in Matthew 24 so this is not a Church passage. This is a Jewish passage. The passage also mentions Judaea which is not a church location for us.

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So no, the context is on my side. The church does not go through the tribulation and this is more proof that I am on the text's side.

Yes the context of Matt.24 is... Jesus speaking to His Church, which His disciples were who He was speaking to which made up the foundation of His early Church, as per Paul in Ephesians 2. I get tired of hearing the pre-trib liars say His Apostles and disciples were not of Christ's Church, it's a stupid idea and completely un-scriptural.

Matt.24 is about the signs Jesus gave for the last generation living on earth that will see His second coming. They are the signs of Revelation 6 which He gave to His Church.

 

[Chuckt]

Not to derail the thread, but I've been following a lot of the rapture / trib threads for a while. I haven't contributed because I don't feel like I understand enough to feel like I know what the truth is. That said, I'm wondering why you guys think it is so hard to understand. Why do we believe such different things?

We have different interpretations from perfectly intelligent people saying wildly opposite things.

Why is that?

The same reason why the Bible is so clear and there are 2,000+ cults in the Watchman Fellowship Cult Catalog.

Luke 8:18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them."

Deuteronomy 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

 

[DP]

What would the latest remedy be for rev 14?

A gathering DURING THE GT?
THE EARTH REAPED,DURING THE GT?

maybe that is a misprint huh?

I feel sorry you pre-tribbers, because you're not being prepared to make a stand for Christ in the trib. You've been taught to be as cowards seeking a life of ease with your prosperity gospel and desire of filthy lucre.

 

[DP]

Not to derail the thread, but I've been following a lot of the rapture / trib threads for a while. I haven't contributed because I don't feel like I understand enough to feel like I know what the truth is. That said, I'm wondering why you guys think it is so hard to understand. Why do we believe such different things?

We have different interpretations from perfectly intelligent people saying wildly opposite things.

Why is that?

The pre-trib rapture is a cult that began in 1830's Britain by Edward Irving and John Darby. Prior to that there was no pre-trib rapture idea ever taught in the Christian Church.

The early 1st/2nd century Church fathers held to a post-trib coming of Christ to gather His Church prior to the Millennium.

 

[Chuckt]

I feel sorry you pre-tribbers, because you're not being prepared to make a stand for Christ in the trib. You've been taught to be as cowards seeking a life of ease with your prosperity gospel and desire of filthy lucre.

It actually frees me up from storing food for seven years so I can concentrate on studying God's word, evangelism, talking to people like you, etc. I think it is pointless to be a survivalist for several reasons.

 

[DP]

Settling Jesus speaking His olivet discourse to His Church once and for all.

Notice the part in bold red:

Luke 21:20-28
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

In this version of His olivet discourse linked to Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus commands His servants in countries to NOT enter into that area of Judea when those signs He gave begin. That means His Church in the nations, those outside the middle east.

 

[Chuckt]

The pre-trib rapture is a cult that began in 1830's Britain by Edward Irving and John Darby. Prior to that there was no pre-trib rapture idea ever taught in the Christian Church.

The early 1st/2nd century Church fathers held to a post-trib coming of Christ to gather His Church prior to the Millennium.

Premillenialism was the doctrine of the early Church

Barnabus, who was a co-worker with the apostle Paul, has been quoted as saying, “The true Sabbath is the one thousands years … when Christ comes back to reign.”

Clement (A.D. 96), Bishop of Rome, said, “Let us every hour expect the kingdom of God…we know not the day.”

Polycarp (A.D. 108), Bishop of Smyrna and finally burned at the stake there, said, “He will raise us from the dead…we shall. Reign with Him.”

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who the historian Eusebius says was the apostle Peter’s successor, commented, “Consider the times and expect Him.”

Papias (A.D. 116), Bishop of Hierapolis, who-according to Irenaeus – saw and heard the apostle John, said, “there will be one thousand years…when the reign of Christ personally will be established on earth.”

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150) said, “I and all others who are orthodox Christians, on all points, know there will be a thousand years in Jerusalem…as Isaiah and Ezekiel declared.”

Iranaeus (A.D. 175), Bishop of Lyons, commenting on Jesus’ promise to drink again of the fruit of the vine in His Father’s kingdom, argues: “That this…can only be fulfilled upon our Lord’s personal return to earth.”

Tertullian (A.D. 200) said, “We do indeed confess that a kingdom is promised on earth.”

Martin Luther said, “Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off.”

John Calvin, in his third book of Institutes, wrote: “Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation for the advent of Christ.”

Canon A.R. Fausset said this: “The early Christian fathers, Clement, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, looked for the Lord’s speedy return as the necessary precursor of the millennial kingdom. Not until the professing Church lost her first love, and became the harlot resting on the world power, did she cease to be the Bride going forth to meet the Bridegroom, and seek to reign already on earth without waiting for His Advent.”

Dr. Elliott wrote: “All primitive expositors, except Origen and the few who rejected Revelation, were premillennial.”
Gussler’s work on church history says of this blessed hope that “it was so distinctly and prominently mentioned that we do not hesitate in regarding it as the general belief of that age.”

Chillingworth declared: “It was the doctrine believed and taught by the most eminent fathers of the age next to the apostles and by none of that age condemned.”

Dr. Adolf von Harnack wrote “The early fathers-Irenaeus, Hipopolytus, Tertullian, etc.-believed it because it was part of the tradition of the early church. It is the same all through the third and fourth centuries with those Latin theologians who escaped the influence of Greek speculation.”

My friend, I have quoted these many men of the past as proof of the fact that from the days of the apostles and through the church of the first centuries the interpretation of the Scriptures was premillennial. When someone makes the statement that premillennialism is something that originated one hundred years ago with an old witch in England, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. It is interesting to note that premillennialism was the belief of these very outstanding men of the early church.

-p. xiv and xv, Volume 59, Revelation Chapters 6-13, Thru The Bible Commentary Series, Dr. J. Vernon McGee

 

[Chuckt]

Settling Jesus speaking His olivet discourse to His Church once and for all.

Notice the part in bold red:

Luke 21:20-28
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;


26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

In this version of His olivet discourse linked to Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus commands His servants in countries to NOT enter into that area of Judea when those signs He gave begin. That means His Church in the nations, those outside the middle east.

Except I never read the term "church" in anything that you wrote.

 

[DP]

It actually frees me up from storing food for seven years so I can concentrate on studying God's word, evangelism, talking to people like you, etc. I think it is pointless to be a survivalist for several reasons.

God is my Rock, I put my faith in Him and His Son. No need to be a survivalist, the actual time of deliverance and testing is going to be very short. You'd know about that if you were staying in His Word instead of being busy idolizing men's traditions.

 

[DP]

Except I never read the term "church" in anything that you wrote.

Just more signs of ignorance. Some folks like yourself have to be told it's a cow they're looking at too because they've never seen one before.

 

[Chuckt]

Just more signs of ignorance. Some folks like yourself have to be told it's a cow they're looking at too because they've never seen one before.

My job is to say what scripture says. I don't insert words into the text.

 

[DP]

My job is to say what scripture says. I don't insert words into the text.

Now you're lying, because there is NO Bible Scripture that says Christ comes to gather His Church Prior to the trib He taught.

 

[DP]

Premillenialism was the doctrine of the early Church

Barnabus, who was a co-worker with the apostle Paul, has been quoted as saying, “The true Sabbath is the one thousands years … when Christ comes back to reign.”

Clement (A.D. 96), Bishop of Rome, said, “Let us every hour expect the kingdom of God…we know not the day.”

Polycarp (A.D. 108), Bishop of Smyrna and finally burned at the stake there, said, “He will raise us from the dead…we shall. Reign with Him.”

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who the historian Eusebius says was the apostle Peter’s successor, commented, “Consider the times and expect Him.”

Papias (A.D. 116), Bishop of Hierapolis, who-according to Irenaeus – saw and heard the apostle John, said, “there will be one thousand years…when the reign of Christ personally will be established on earth.”

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150) said, “I and all others who are orthodox Christians, on all points, know there will be a thousand years in Jerusalem…as Isaiah and Ezekiel declared.”

Iranaeus (A.D. 175), Bishop of Lyons, commenting on Jesus’ promise to drink again of the fruit of the vine in His Father’s kingdom, argues: “That this…can only be fulfilled upon our Lord’s personal return to earth.”

Tertullian (A.D. 200) said, “We do indeed confess that a kingdom is promised on earth.”

Martin Luther said, “Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off.”

John Calvin, in his third book of Institutes, wrote: “Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation for the advent of Christ.”

Canon A.R. Fausset said this: “The early Christian fathers, Clement, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, looked for the Lord’s speedy return as the necessary precursor of the millennial kingdom. Not until the professing Church lost her first love, and became the harlot resting on the world power, did she cease to be the Bride going forth to meet the Bridegroom, and seek to reign already on earth without waiting for His Advent.”

Dr. Elliott wrote: “All primitive expositors, except Origen and the few who rejected Revelation, were premillennial.”
Gussler’s work on church history says of this blessed hope that “it was so distinctly and prominently mentioned that we do not hesitate in regarding it as the general belief of that age.”

Chillingworth declared: “It was the doctrine believed and taught by the most eminent fathers of the age next to the apostles and by none of that age condemned.”

Dr. Adolf von Harnack wrote “The early fathers-Irenaeus, Hipopolytus, Tertullian, etc.-believed it because it was part of the tradition of the early church. It is the same all through the third and fourth centuries with those Latin theologians who escaped the influence of Greek speculation.”

My friend, I have quoted these many men of the past as proof of the fact that from the days of the apostles and through the church of the first centuries the interpretation of the Scriptures was premillennial. When someone makes the statement that premillennialism is something that originated one hundred years ago with an old witch in England, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. It is interesting to note that premillennialism was the belief of these very outstanding men of the early church.

-p. xiv and xv, Volume 59, Revelation Chapters 6-13, Thru The Bible Commentary Series, Dr. J. Vernon McGee

The 1st/2nd century fathers were post-trib and YES premillennial LIKE I SAID! What they were NOT was pre-trib!

 

[Called4Christ]

Thank you all for your responses, all of them are insightful and food for thought. <3

Back into lurk-mode now

 

[Chuckt]

I feel sorry you pre-tribbers, because you're not being prepared to make a stand for Christ in the trib. You've been taught to be as cowards seeking a life of ease with your prosperity gospel and desire of filthy lucre.

I actually don't believe in the prosperity gospel. I am not rich and believing in something does not make me a coward.

 

[DP]

I actually don't believe in the prosperity gospel. I am not rich and believing in something does not make me a coward.

Sure you do. Anyone who agrees to receiving monies or paying tithes for preaching the pre-trib rapture is on the prosperity gospel, which is why the false pre-trib doctrine keeps making those like Tim LaHaye et al rich, even though the doctrine cannot be supported Biblically.

 

[Chuckt]

Sure you do. Anyone who agrees to receiving monies or paying tithes for preaching the pre-trib rapture is on the prosperity gospel, which is why the false pre-trib doctrine keeps making those like Tim LaHaye et al rich, even though the doctrine cannot be supported Biblically.

Do you have any proof?