The "Rapture"?

DP · Apr 11, 2016

Again, the specific 'wrath' Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 is linked to the timing of the 'day of the Lord', which is the last day of this world. That's when this will happen upon the wicked, which is what that 'wrath' Paul was speaking of:

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

Luke 17:27-30
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
KJV

2 Thess 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV

All those above references to the wicked being punished on the day of Jesus' return to gather us originate from the OT prophets. That's where God first gave that info, which was where the Apostles were teaching from:

Isa 13:6-9
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV

When you study the OT prophets, which Peter told us to be mindful of, you get more info when these things are covered in the NT. That was the foundation that Apostle Paul and all the Apostles were teaching from. Only with false teachers of men's doctrines have come those who try to cast away the OT Books.

Ahwatukee · Apr 12, 2016

Hello DP,

The "Day of the Lord" is not a day in length, but covers the entire seven years in which God will be pouring out his wrath. The day of the Lord is also referred to as "the hour of trial" that Jesus promised to keep us out of. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is a detailed account of God's wrath, the day of the Lord.

Ahwatukee · Apr 12, 2016

The war where Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven takes place at the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, which demonstrates that it is apart of God's wrath. All of the seal, trumpets and bowl judgments are initiated by the Lamb who is the One who breaks and opens the seals, which lead into the trumpets, which is followed by the bowl judgments. All events which take place within that last seven years is apart of the wrath of God. That period is God's time.

DP · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

The 'day of the Lord' begins on the LAST day of this world. It is NOT the tribulation time your pre-trib rapture doctors have taught you. Study the OT prophets like you're supposed to.

DP · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

The time of Satan's casting out as the dragon, along with his angels, is with the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, which begins in Rev.9 and continues all the way through Rev.11:14. He will be the coming Antichrist everyone is looking for, but will claim to be our Lord Jesus.

Ahwatukee · Apr 12, 2016

DP said:

No it's not! The war is the 7th trumpet/3rd woe and here's the proof:

5th Trumpet/1st Woe is sounded, after completion:

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come."

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe is sounded, after its completion:

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd woe

Ahwatukee · Apr 12, 2016

DP said:

The 6th trumpet is when those four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates are released to kill a third of mankind along with their army of 200 million. The 6th and 7th trumpet are separate events of wrath.

PlainWord · Apr 12, 2016

It is gone and you missed it. The legs were East and West parts of the Roman Empire when they broke into two. Jesus is not the "rock." Christianity is the rock. The Roman Empire was smashed, never to be seen again.

[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.

In the days of the Roman Empire, Christ came and the eternal kingdom was established then, not in the future.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The kingdom was coming then, not 2,000 years or so later!!

Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”

Everyone who was standing there are dead now, right? So the kingdom came back when some where alive.

The Kingdom is within us and comes without observation, right? When Christ returns, He comes with observation with His kingdom.

Luke 17:21

nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The Kingdom is Spiritual:

John 18:36

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Romans 14:17

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The Man of Sin (which you call the AntiChrist) rules over the 10 horns, not the 10 toes. You are in the wrong Chapter of Daniel my friend. Go to Chapter 7.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast (ROME) shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from (ROME, not toes but HORNS) this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

It is the LITTLE HORN to come which is in the future.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

TEN HORNS, not Ten Toes!!

Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

TEN HORNS, not Ten Toes!!

The ten toes are ten nations which came out of Rome back then and I listed them for you before..

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

Toes are on the feet. Horns are on the head. They CANNOT be the same!! It's coming to a head, pun intended

Ahwatukee · Apr 12, 2016

PlainWord said:

It is gone and you missed it. The legs were East and West parts of the Roman Empire when they broke into two. Jesus is not the "rock." Christianity is the rock. The Roman Empire was smashed, never to be seen again.

[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.

In the days of the Roman Empire, Christ came and the eternal kingdom was established then, not in the future.

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The kingdom was coming then, not 2,000 years or so later!!

Luke 9:27
But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”

Everyone who was standing there are dead now, right? So the kingdom came back when some where alive.

The Kingdom is within us and comes without observation, right? When Christ returns, He comes with observation with His kingdom.

Luke 17:21

nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The Kingdom is Spiritual:

John 18:36

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Romans 14:17

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The Man of Sin (which you call the AntiChrist) rules over the 10 horns, not the 10 toes. You are in the wrong Chapter of Daniel my friend. Go to Chapter 7.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast (ROME) shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from (ROME, not toes but HORNS) this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

It is the LITTLE HORN to come which is in the future.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

TEN HORNS, not Ten Toes!!

Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

TEN HORNS, not Ten Toes!!

The ten toes are ten nations which came out of Rome back then and I listed them for you before..

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

Toes are on the feet. Horns are on the head. They CANNOT be the same!! It's coming to a head, pun intended

I'm done trying to present the truth to you. You have obviously adopted these false teachings are will not be moved from them. Speaking to you is like speaking to a preterist or an amillennialist. The only way that you are going to understand, is when these events begin to literally take place.

JesusIsAll · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

What will happen is PlainWord and DP will one day find there's nobody present to dispute their claims in the BDF, probably the site will crash at some point, the administrators gone, too. Though, until it crashes, there will be certain rejoicing in some quarters, that nobody gets banned.

Ahwatukee · Apr 12, 2016

JesusIsAll said:

Hello JesusIsAll,

Unfortunately, you are probably right. And I'm sure that you would agree, I would rather be able to get them to understand the truth, but because I have no credibility with them regarding scripture, they see me and everyone else who presents the true word of God to them as enemies. So, they are just going to have to find out the truth for themselves by seeing it for themselves.

Satan is attacking every facet of the word in these last days, which is why we have so much disunity and various teachings on every Biblical topic. I'm pretty sure that this is the apostasy from the true faith that Paul was speaking of, which has been gong on for some time now, i.e. departure from the truth. The word of God does prophesy of this:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

JesusIsAll · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

It's probably best to reserve full comment on this, but something many have noticed in the pre-millennial, fundamentalist community at large is how protestations over the rapture have become heated and amplified in these times. The narrow focus of some and vehemence is evidence of an agenda, whether intentional or not, I don't believe, for a minute, it's about truth. Also, truth is spiritually discerned, it seems it's along the lines of trying to argue somebody into the kingdom to expect things of God settled by debate, when it's only the Holy Spirit that can open eyes. I applaud your good efforts, but fear I'm more pessimistic you'll see results in the thread, though wouldn't discount those results we don't see. In any case, you're well studied in scripture eschatology, and a man of truth, Ahwatukee.

DP · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Afraid so! This is why the angel of the bottomless pit who is a king over the locusts is being described immediately before mention of the 6th trumpet- 2nd woe getting ready to start.

Rev 9:11-15
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
KJV

The specific hour, day, month, and year they are prepared for is the tribulation.

The 7th trumpet - 3rd woe doesn't begin until Rev.11:14, which ends the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe events. Rev.10 is a parenthetical type chapter (like a pause to impart specific info).

Each trumpet - woe is period involving the events as given in between. Rev.8:13 to Rev.9:12 is the 1st woe period, Rev.9:13 to Rev.11:14 is the 2nd woe period, and Rev.11:15 with Jesus coming and day of the Lord events is the final 3rd woe period.

DP · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

You like many, confuse that Rev.9 locust army with the Gog/Magog army on the LAST day of this world at Armageddon. 2 separate events and timings.

DP · Apr 12, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Both of you can enjoy being full of yourselves as much as you want, but it's not going to make the doctrines of men you follow be anything other than man's traditions.

God has laid out the events of the end in many Books in His Word, not just in Revelation only, and it's very clear by you guy's confusion that you haven't really studied all of them, but instead have chosen to default to men's doctrines.

One example of that is your confusion of what the 'day of the Lord' event is and when it begins, because God's Word shows it will only begin at the end of this world, ending this present world by God's consuming fire, burning man's works off the earth per what Peter said in 2 Pet.3:10. It's so... obvious that event ends the tribulation too, because it is to come upon the wicked "as a thief in the night" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.5!!! And what has your fake pre-trib rapture doctrine taught about that "thief in the night" idea? They have traditionally taught that's when Jesus comes to gather His Church, and they are right, EXCEPT they try to move that event to PRIOR to the trib, which then makes them WRONG!!! What confusion you guys are in!!!

All you've got to do to know the proper timing and order per God's Word is read it in simplicity asking Him, and then cease from listening to men's doctrines.

roaringkitten · Apr 12, 2016

PlainWord said:

Jesus is my rock and sure foundation!

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." Isa 28:16

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor 3:11

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor 10:4

abcdef · Apr 12, 2016

Bothers in Christ,

If the beast is a nation, Dan 2&7, Rev 17

And the beast that kills the two witness, comes out of the pit, (5th trump)

Where in the narrative, does it show the nation being thrown into the pit?

What does it mean that this nation is thrown into the pit?

Just a thought.

DP · Apr 12, 2016

abcdef said:

The beast idea of Rev.13 represents 2 things, a kingdom and a king that is over it. The beast kingdom is the parameters given in Rev.13:1-2 linked with the idea in Dan.7. But the beast king over it is the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward, which also is called a dragon, and is further spoken of in Rev.9, Rev.11, and Rev.17.

But some people have a hard time thinking about more than one thing at a time, and those think there's only one beast involved in Revelation no matter what kind of analogy marker is given in the Scripture. So when they see Rev.19:20 about the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire when Jesus comes, but not the dragon, they get all confused.

PlainWord · Apr 12, 2016

roaringkitten said:

Let me restate as I answered quickly as I was focused on the part dealing with "filling the earth" in my response to Ahwatukee. The passage actually calls Him a "stone."

Yes Jesus is the "Rock" but Christianity is the "Mountain" that filled the whole earth in the passage below. That is what I meant. It was/is Christianity that fills the whole earth.

Dan 2: And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Mountain = a Faith or religion

When you see "mountain" used in prophesy it is symbolic of a faith or religion as in the passage below:

Rev 8:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The great mountain here is ISLAM. Which coincides with this passage. It also uses "foundation" as you cited in your passage. This is interesting because the foundation stone used in Allah's Temple in Mecca (the Kaaba) uses a meteor as it's cornerstone. So when God destroys Islam, there will be nothing left of it for anyone to restart it.

Jer 51: [SUP]24 [/SUP]“And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight,” says the Lord. [SUP]25 [/SUP]“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain. [SUP]26 [/SUP]They shall not take from you a stone for a corner Nor a stone for a foundation, But you shall be desolate forever,” says the Lord.

Some newbies to prophesy (or those who haven't developed much) still see these passages as a meteor which crashes into the ocean and kills the fishes and ships. The burning/destroying mountain isn't a meteor which harms Israel, in case some of you are still unclear about this.

PlainWord · Apr 12, 2016

abcdef said:

In the context of Rev 13 the Beast is more than one nation. In Daniel even it was more than one Nation. It is an Empire made up of many, peoples, nations and tongues. In Rev 13, it is a group of 10 Islamic Nations which are formed religiously into one Empire. It is a Caliphate. The two churches (Roman Catholic) West, and (Greek Orthodox) East will be killed spiritually and to a large extent literally, by this "Beast."

The "Rapture"?

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