lets have some Bible study shall we?

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace 777X 70

Good point .Things that accompanies salvation like actual redemption of our soul. And not a kick start placing us in the garden before the first transgression.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:1

I find the opening statement interesting. Why would we leave something unless it was in the way as an obstruction(stumbling block )? It give rise to; for it is impossible for those (5 times) found in the verses 4-through 7 up until the verse you offered that speaks of better things for those who do not crucify Christ over and over subjecting him to public shame, as if once was not enough to appease the eternal wrath of God which he did pour out on His son..

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:6

From looking at the opening statement, the beginning of the subject matter which sets the manner of work some were offering called “dead works” toward God, or God-ward and therefore not his faith towards us. And hoping that kind of what they called wonderful works could rather be the way we can know Christ. Us towards Him, the dead works, and not Him towards us the living works of His faith that both wills and does his good pleasure.

Christ called those kind of workers, workers of iniquity.he did not say they did not perform them but they become dead when a person wants to take some credit for God moving them. It simply does not work for us that receive the better things that do accompany salvation. Knowing God, the better thing..

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:22

Yes, there is a vast difference between those that are trying by being religious and those that are in Christ. The book of Hebrews is full of differences between the Jews that were relying on the Old Covenant system and how we are to only rely on Christ alone. Not understanding this fact can cause a lot of different understandings come to us in Hebrews.

The ones that Jesus said "I never knew you" - were never Christians to begin with. He aid He "never" knew them at all. Workers of iniquity are non-believers in Jesus only for salvation and life.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, there is a vast difference between those that are trying by being religious and those that are in Christ. The book of Hebrews is full of differences between the Jews that were relying on the Old Covenant system and how we are to only rely on Christ alone. Not understanding this fact can cause a lot of different understandings come to us in Hebrews.

The ones that Jesus said "I never knew you" - were never Christians to begin with. He aid He "never" knew them at all. Workers of iniquity are non-believers in Jesus only for salvation and life.

This polarisation of believers is so obvious. If you are "trying" verses those that are in Christ.
We are all in Christ by faith, but because I do not fit the hyper grace language or definition I must be "trying" not actually walking in the power of love and the redemption Jesus has purchased for me as a free gift.

I must also be unaware of His unbounding love, but I am. Not only that I claim His miraculous victory and the power the Holy Spirit gives me to walk in purity and righteousness. Who are these people who would strip me of my walk with Christ, who would slander my walk as trying and not actually doing what Christ called us all to do.

There must be a strange cloud that has come over these people and taken away their victory, or maybe they never had any. Maybe they thought they had arrived but failed to know the power of Christ all their life before revelation christian experience. And you will find most of these people where christians before they got this revelation, and now in their new version of faith they want to disown us and declare we have gained nothing in Christ, but they have everything.

Now I prefer just to share the blessing Christ has done in my life and leave others to sort out their own relationship. So please do not call me unsaved, a hypocrite, a failure, a liar, a work of satan, with head knowledge and no heart, because I am none of these things, but for you to hold your position you must make me that, because if I am walking in what I claim, you have to be wrong. But I believe in a miraculous God who set the prisoner free, who bought us with a great price to be His glory. So Amen if you agree we walk as brothers and sisters in Christ in this great triumph of love over hate, life over death, truth over lies.

 

[roaringkitten]

Yes, there is a vast difference between those that are trying by being religious and those that are in Christ. The book of Hebrews is full of differences between the Jews that were relying on the Old Covenant system and how we are to only rely on Christ alone. Not understanding this fact can cause a lot of different understandings come to us in Hebrews.

The ones that Jesus said "I never knew you" - were never Christians to begin with. He aid He "never" knew them at all. Workers of iniquity are non-believers in Jesus only for salvation and life.

Hebrews perfectly bridges the shadow of the OT blood sacrifices and the NT one time blood sacrifice by Christ! Such a powerful book that gives us so many promises! Amen! A great chapter to study(Heb 9):

1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The author of the study does not reject what is written in Isaiah 18:5. The author points out that there are branches left remaining on the vine which will fruit in the future. The branches left on the vine for the future are carefully tended. They are lifted off the ground and nurtured and supported.

The author further points out that there is a difference between those who do not abide and those who do abide but who are not bearing fruit. That is the nuance written into the analogy of John 15 which you reject.

Jesus was never that complicated and always used plain speech and simple parable/analogies to get his point across. The interpretation you and other false-grace believers are positing is just too convoluted, speculative and untenable.

 

[Billyd]

Seems to me that there is a lot of hair splitting going on here.

 

[psalm6819]

Surely you're not as stupid as your post.
To get salvation one must repent and accept Jesus as their savior.
Now, you want to think about your post and correct it, or do you prefer people to think you're just not real bright?[/QUOTE

do you want to think about your post and correct it or do you prefer people to think you are rude?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus was never that complicated and always used plain speech and simple parable/analogies to get his point across.

Jesus spoke to His disciples. The disciples were fully aware of the analogy of the Vine. As we have gotten further and further from an agrarian society, we are less likely to be familiar with the various pruning practices. We must bring our understanding concerning these cultural examples into alignment with what is written in Scripture.

We must not assume that believers who are in the Lord Jesus Christ yet not bearing fruit are the same as unbelievers who do not abide in Him.

The interpretation you and other false-grace believers are positing is just too convoluted, speculative and untenable.

What is untenable is your insistence that grace believers are "false". That and your insistence that God would remove a believer who is in the Lord Jesus Christ but is not bearing fruit.

Your understanding flies in the face of many, many verses in Scripture which indicate God will never allow a believer to fall from His Hand.

Here is what God says about those who are going through a season of trial (and maybe it is during these times that we may bear little to no fruit):

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


God doesn't throw us away. He perfects (equips); He stablishes (renders constant, confirms); He strengthens (makes us strong); He settles (makes stable).

Please think and consider what you are saying about the Father and what He does to believers who are in Christ but who are not yet bearing fruit, or maybe they are suffering a trial for a season and are not bearing fruit. God absolutely does not remove them from the Vine. He supports and nourishes until the believer is strong in the Vine and is able to hold the fruit produced in his/her life by the Vine.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What is untenable is your insistence that grace believers are "false". That and your insistence that God would remove a believer who is in the Lord Jesus Christ but is not bearing fruit.

Your understanding flies in the face of many, many verses in Scripture which indicate God will never allow a believer to fall from His Hand.

Here is what God says about those who are going through a season of trial (and maybe it is during these times that we may bear little to no fruit):

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


God doesn't throw us away. He perfects (equips); He stablishes (renders constant, confirms); He strengthens (makes us strong); He settles (makes stable).

Please think and consider what you are saying about the Father and what He does to believers who are in Christ but who are not yet bearing fruit, or maybe they are suffering a trial for a season and are not bearing fruit. God absolutely does not remove them from the Vine. He supports and nourishes until the believer is strong in the Vine and is able to hold the fruit produced in his/her life by the Vine.

You're mischaracterizing what I believe. GOD stands by those who have faith, but those who cease to have faith are eventually cut off.

This theory that you're trying to find support for didn't exist in the church for over 1900 years, and now we're supposed to believe it because a Free Grace believer (essentially, salvation by grace apart from faith) came up with it based on some writings of Pliny and a fair amount of speculation and assumption. I don't think so. Sounds like he had an agenda. This is just standard procedure for false-grace teachers: try to redefine everything that stands in the way of their doctrine.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You're mischaracterizing what I believe. GOD stands by those who have faith, but those who cease to have faith are eventually cut off.

John 15:2 does not indicate that those who do not bear fruit "cease to have faith".

John 15:2 states they are in the Lord Jesus Christ which is indicative of their faith. They are just not bearing fruit.

This is just standard procedure for false-grace teachers: try to redefine everything that stands in the way of their doctrine.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

 

[garee]

Yes, there is a vast difference between those that are trying by being religious and those that are in Christ. The book of Hebrews is full of differences between the Jews that were relying on the Old Covenant system and how we are to only rely on Christ alone. Not understanding this fact can cause a lot of different understandings come to us in Hebrews.

The ones that Jesus said "I never knew you" - were never Christians to begin with. He aid He "never" knew them at all. Workers of iniquity are non-believers in Jesus only for salvation and life.

I agree Hebrews speaks of a reformation. The question is what did it restore and what is the new order restored t? Is it prophesied in the old testament etc.?

In most cases talking about reformation it usually goes toward the fifthteenth century refomation. The first century reformation is the pattern to all reformations small or large . What was applied there worked as a carbon copy during the fifthteenth .

Putting a division between the Jew and the gentile and therefore making it about the outward corrupted flesh as that seen and not that not seen the faith principle has always been prick in the side. But God puts no difference between the two purifying the hearts of all according to a work of His faith. it is just another thing that from my experiences people do not want to talk about. Most say God does not need faith. It would seem they have a different understanding to what faith is and where it comes from.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Isnt faith considered a fruit of the Spirit?

 

[garee]

Surely you're not as stupid as your post.
To get salvation one must repent and accept Jesus as their savior.
Now, you want to think about your post and correct it, or do you prefer people to think you're just not real bright?[/QUOTE

do you want to think about your post and correct it or do you prefer people to think you are rude?

It would appear someone wants to make the faith by which can belive God in respect to their own selves and not the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God as it works in us both to will and do His good pleasure as that which is called the meat of the word, our spiritual food that the disciples were noted for not understanding. .

We who were truly dead in our tresspases and sins had no way to repent. having no way to understand God and therefore the ability to seek after him. he must do the first work by giving us a new spirit so that when he of his own volition turns us that after that we can respent. Putting the cart before the horse. If he does not do the first work no man will turn . First things first.

Jer 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
Jer 31:19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

 

[phil112]

Surely you're not as stupid as your post.
To get salvation one must repent and accept Jesus as their savior.
Now, you want to think about your post and correct it, or do you prefer people to think you're just not real bright?[/QUOTE

do you want to think about your post and correct it or do you prefer people to think you are rude?

It's not that I prefer people to think that, it simply is that I am sometimes. I get very short with those that keep trying to teach things they don't know enough about, things they should still be learning, when they reject truth about said subject.
I realize it isn't an asset, and I should work on it more, but trust me, I'm not as bad as I used to be.
It helps if, when one is pointing someone's mistakes, that they don't make a bunch of mistakes while doing so.

If you're going to be a teacher, know your subject thoroughly, and in case of error stand up and admit it. People think less of you when make a mistake and don't admit.
The obviously best way is to not make a mistake, but we're all flesh here, and flesh is going to err.

Hope this helps.

 

[roaringkitten]

You did great reneweddaybyday...Keep on contending for the faith!

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 1:24-25

 

[phil112]

It would appear someone wants to make the faith by which can belive God in respect to their own selves and not the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God as it works in us both to will and do His good pleasure as that which is called the meat of the word, our spiritual food that the disciples were noted for not understanding........................................

I can only assume you are talking about me since you didn't name names.
Look, I'm not completely stupid, but I have no clue what you just said. Care to put that in words that an old country boy can understand?

 

[garee]

You're mischaracterizing what I believe. GOD stands by those who have faith, but those who cease to have faith are eventually cut off.

Have what one faith and respect to whose work ?

I say that because we are informed that although we do deny Him in unbelief but because he has written our names in the lambs book of life that was slain from the foundation of the world that he cannot (impossible) deny us that he who began the good work will finish it to the end. .

So I think the question is....who is cutting off who?

 

[phil112]

It would appear someone wants to make the faith by which can belive God in respect to their own selves and not the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God as it works in us both to will and do His good pleasure as that which is called the meat of the word, our spiritual food that the disciples were noted for not understanding. .

......................................

Have what one faith and respect to whose work ?

I say that because we are informed that although we do deny Him in unbelief but because he has written our names in the lambs book of life that was slain from the foundation of the world that he cannot (impossible) deny us that he who began the good work will finish it to the end. ........................

At the risk of making psalm6819 even more annoyed with me, I'm going to point out that if you would use some punctuation I, and probably others here, could more easily understand you.

Sorry, psalm6819.

 

[garee]

Isnt faith considered a fruit of the Spirit?

Yes, just as would be self-control, but not the fruit of our spirit without Christ who dwells in the believer. It is the fruit of His faith. He freely gives us His faith, according to His labor of love, as it can and does works in us. It is perfectly patient, therefore it can kind .That love of God does not work from envy it has no reason to puff oneself up as if it was in completion with another god. It is not easily provoked. The fruit of His Spirit looks to bless and not hate by withholding a blessing. Because His love, His faith, as a work cannot bear evil, it rejoices with its own truth as the authority and finisher thereof.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Yes, just as would be self-control, but not the fruit of our spirit without Christ who dwells in the believer. It is the fruit of His faith. He freely gives us His faith, according to His labor of love, as it can and does works in us. It is perfectly patient, therefore it can kind .That love of God does not work from envy it has no reason to puff oneself up as if it was in completion with another god. It is not easily provoked. The fruit of His Spirit looks to bless and not hate by withholding a blessing. Because His love, His faith, as a work cannot bear evil, it rejoices with its own truth as the authority and finisher thereof.

I had over posted you, and I actually should have quoted reneweddaybyday's statement where my question had come, which was through this one

John 15:2 does not indicate that those who do not bear fruit "cease to have faith".

When I am thinking, on the contrary faith (even His) would be a fruit of the Spirit the branches would have in them

Even as these are by Jesus Christ (the Vine)

Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Which is in accord with this same

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Same with a branch as with trees

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Just as he says,

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which come by abiding in Christ (Vine) as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Which again

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

And I am trying to break the habit of asking after things which is hard to remember at times, but branches are shown broken off as it specifically relates to unbelief in contrast to faith, the same sort of contrast is shown in Abraham

Romans 4:20 He (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

This other was to what I was referring to when I was speaking of standing by faith versus unbelief in respects to unbelief in that way.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

There are others, I just didnt get what I did not see in the scripture but it wasnt your post I was responding to, but my fault for not quoting, assuming I would not overpost someone else.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

John 15:2 does not indicate that those who do not bear fruit "cease to have faith".

When I am thinking, on the contrary faith (even His) would be a fruit of the Spirit the branches would have in them

Even as these are by Jesus Christ (the Vine)

Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Which is in accord with this same

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Same with a branch as with trees

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Just as he says,

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which come by abiding in Christ (Vine) as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringethforth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Which again

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Interesting. Is fruit of the spirit the same as fruit of abiding in the vine? I have not considered this and will have to think about it.

And I am trying to break the habit of asking after things which is hard to remember at times, but branches are shown broken off as it specifically relates to unbelief in contrast to faith, the same sort of contrast is shown in Abraham

Romans 4:20 He (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

This other was to what I was referring to when I was speaking of standing by faith versus unbelief in respects to unbelief in that way.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

There are others, I just didnt get what I did not see in the scripture but it wasnt your post I was responding to, but my fault for not quoting, assuming I would not overpost someone else.

In Rom 11, the branches were broken off because of unbelief and the unfruitful branch of John 15:2 does not fit that mold. In John 15:2 the branch is in the Lord Jesus Christ but does not bear fruit.

I was thinking more along the lines of the seasons of growth on a vine. There are times of dormancy and times of growth and times of fruiting.

Here some information I found about trellising:

To grow any significant amount of grapes you will need a trellis system of some kind. You see, grape vines cannot support the weight of a full harvest by themselves.

...

The most important thing to consider is that you ensure enough exposure to sunlight and air movement so that photosynthesis, the ripening of the fruit and the control of diseases can be done effectively.

Many first time grape growers plant their vines first before installing a trellis in the rush and excitement of just getting started. That is certainly understandable.

I can assure you though that this is not a good idea. Once your grape vines starts growing, you want to immediately start training the young vines as soon as possible.

Considering the fact that it usually takes a few years to produce any grapes at all, the trellis system is going to be in place for a good while.

...

The bottom wire known as the fruiting wire is set approximately 30" off the ground. This is the wire your canes will be tied off to.

Grape Trellis Usage And Guidelines