Once saved, always saved

[RobbyEarl]

Your are bent and have sold to your doctrine and nothing I can say will convince you. You must ask God for yourself. Though I give scripture after Scripture I no that it is futile. I know in my Heart that OSAS is a false doctrine from my own experience. It is a doctrine of works. What you will say is that the person was never really saved and demean the cross. In-fact you will urinate on it and defecate on it. Because if a person who comes to your church and is baptized and loses the way you will say they were not saved. Which conflicts your own doctrine. But yet you will hold to it.

 

[RobbyEarl]

I apologize Iwas thinking I was in different room, Please forgive me.

 

[Chuckt]

Your are bent and have sold to your doctrine and nothing I can say will convince you. You must ask God for yourself. Though I give scripture after Scripture I no that it is futile. I know in my Heart that OSAS is a false doctrine from my own experience. It is a doctrine of works. What you will say is that the person was never really saved and demean the cross. In-fact you will urinate on it and defecate on it. Because if a person who comes to your church and is baptized and loses the way you will say they were not saved. Which conflicts your own doctrine. But yet you will hold to it.

How is OSAS a doctrine of works? It is the opposite.
And you are right in some points. I brought a lady to church and she threw a cigarette in the parking lot and that was a sign of disrespect to me but do we keep people out because they sin? No. We bring people to church to believe so that God can change them and God does the work.

Isaiah 1:18 ¶ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

And what you're argument is that someone can't have their sins be as scarlet and have them white as snow. If the person's sins are as scarlet then they're still sinning and they come to God and He makes them white as snow and as a result, they repent.

It is because I was dirty and that God cleansed me that I'm thankful and sometimes as a result of that thankfulness, I repent:

Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

I was dirty. I had a filthy mouth. I wanted to be bad but God saved me because I believe and as a result over years I changed and sometimes people didn't see a difference in my but I'm different now.

 

[RobbyEarl]

How is OSAS a doctrine of works? It is the opposite.
And you are right in some points. I brought a lady to church and she threw a cigarette in the parking lot and that was a sign of disrespect to me but do we keep people out because they sin? No. We bring people to church to believe so that God can change them and God does the work.

Isaiah 1:18 ¶ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

And what you're argument is that someone can't have their sins be as scarlet and have them white as snow. If the person's sins are as scarlet then they're still sinning and they come to God and He makes them white as snow and as a result, they repent.

It is because I was dirty and that God cleansed me that I'm thankful and sometimes as a result of that thankfulness, I repent:

Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

I was dirty. I had a filthy mouth. I wanted to be bad but God saved me because I believe and as a result over years I changed and sometimes people didn't see a difference in my but I'm different now.

I concur my friend, Yet I have seen the opposite. I have seen people come and genuinely give their heart to God, but as timed passed they gave their heart to Satan. I mean they were baptized and even taught. But now they are drug riddled and evil and full of deceit. As I said it is a difficult thing to do but yet is possible. It is by choice, God will respect your choice. God respected Barnubus choice and He respected Judas choice. He respected Pharaohs choice, He respected the Pharisee's choice.

God is not a respecter of persons

I praise God and thank Him that you are different. That God has changed you by the cross.

I wish that it was taught in our churches but sadly it is not. What did Jesus say about the subject? Lord we have danced for you and sang songs to you and He will say depart from you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. Were not these a people that thought they were saved?

 

[Chuckt]

I concur my friend, Yet I have seen the opposite. I have seen people come and genuinely give their heart to God, but as timed passed they gave their heart to Satan. I mean they were baptized and even taught. But now they are drug riddled and evil and full of deceit. As I said it is a difficult thing to do but yet is possible. It is by choice, God will respect your choice. God respected Barnubus choice and He respected Judas choice. He respected Pharaohs choice, He respected the Pharisee's choice.

God is not a respecter of persons

I praise God and thank Him that you are different. That God has changed you by the cross.

I wish that it was taught in our churches but sadly it is not. What did Jesus say about the subject? Lord we have danced for you and sang songs to you and He will say depart from you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. Were not these a people that thought they were saved?

Thank you for the nice words.

The problem with that verse is that it says I never ever knew you. It is emphatic in the greek. It doesn't say, "I once knew you". It means, "I never ever knew you". So if they believed and fell away like the prodigal, does that mean they can't or won't come back. Does it mean that God never ever knew them? Will God have mercy?

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God says He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
And salvation is still a free gift.
God knows whom are His.
You don't.

If God wants people to be saved and God moved them but they moved back, what is the next step? We presume to know and we don't know what is in people's hearts or what is in the future. It is judging.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Thank you for the nice words.

The problem with that verse is that it says I never ever knew you. It is emphatic in the greek. It doesn't say, "I once knew you". It means, "I never ever knew you". So if they believed and fell away like the prodigal, does that mean they can't or won't come back. Does it mean that God never ever knew them? Will God have mercy?

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

God says He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
And salvation is still a free gift.
God knows whom are His.
You don't.

If God wants people to be saved and God moved them but they moved back, what is the next step? We presume to know and we don't know what is in people's hearts or what is in the future. It is judging.

I love you brother, However Did Jesus know Judas?

 

[Dan58]

I grew up hearing the phrase that once you are saved, you are always saved. You cannot loose your salvation is that statement true, please help me find scriptures that discuss this topic further.

No, its not true... There are all kinds of verses that warn us of the danger of falling away. Here are a few;

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6)

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1)

"But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent" (Revelation 2:4-5).

While its true that Christ will never forsake us, its always possible for us to harden our hearts, lose faith, turn away, or change our minds.

 

[Chuckt]

Your are bent and have sold to your doctrine and nothing I can say will convince you. You must ask God for yourself. Though I give scripture after Scripture I no that it is futile.

Why is it futile?
I surveyed all the opinions or teachings of the Bible on top of reading it for many many years.
I came up with a Biblical position.

Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Therefore I live by every word of God.

And we're supposed to fight for this word of God peacefully:

Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people.

We're to contend for the faith.

That is why I don't give up. When I see a verse that contradicts what I teach of what I believe, I take it into account and put it into the equation.

Ephesians 6:13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

So when I've done all to stand, I keep standing.

But if you want to change my beliefs, you have to try harder than you have ever tried in the past. You have to overcome the truth.

 

[Chuckt]

No, its not true... There are all kinds of verses that warn us of the danger of falling away. Here are a few;

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6)

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1)

"But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent" (Revelation 2:4-5).

While its true that Christ will never forsake us, its always possible for us to harden our hearts, lose faith, turn away, or change our minds.

Dan,

Thank you for your post.

I have posted on why Hebrews 6:4 and Hebrews 10:24 doesn't mean you can lose your salvation.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...oes-not-mean-you-can-lose-your-salvation.html

Everyone else has given up on this forum because the post is four weeks old.

Perhaps you can change my mind on the subject.

Chuck

 

[RobbyEarl]

The fact of the matter is and tell me I am wrong the OSAS doctrine is given to justify our sins.

 

[Chuckt]

I love you brother, However Did Jesus know Judas?

God knows everyone because He is omniscient.
Did Jesus know Judas as a Christian or a believer? No.

Unless you are born from above, you shall not see the kingdom of God.

In terms of Job, was Job saved? Yes, He knew God.

When I speak of "Know", I don't mean mental assent. I mean this from Vine's Dictionary of Biblical words:

1Cr 8:3, "if any man love God, the same is known of Him;" Gal 4:9, "to be known of God;" here the "knowing" suggests approval and bears the meaning "to be approved;" so in 2Ti 2:19; cp. Jhn 10:14, 27;Gen 18:19; Nah 1:7; the relationship implied may involve remedial chastisement, Amo 3:2. The same idea of appreciation as well as "knowledge" underlies several statements concerning the "knowledge" of God and His truth on the part of believers, e.g., Jhn 8:32; 14:20, 31; 17:3; Gal 4:9 (1st part); 1Jo 2:3, 13, 14; 4:6, 8, 16; 5:20; such "knowledge" is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ. Nor is such "knowledge" marked by finality; see e.g., 2Pe 3:18; Hsa 6:3, RV.The verb is also used to convey the thought of connection or union, as between man and woman, Mat 1:25; Luk 1:34.

Question: Did Judas' knowledge of God convey the thought of connection or union as between a man and a woman and I don't mean sexual here but was knowing by the operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ? If Judas loved Christ, was Judas known by Christ? The knowledge underlies several statements concerning the knowledge of God and His truth on the part of believers which is not mere intellectual activity.

He did something that only could happen in Hebrews 6:4 which is he tasted and turned away from God which is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because Judas allowed himself to be used by the devil in spite of the light that he saw.

 

[RobbyEarl]

That's why we need the cross, our sins are not justified and our works are rejected, we need the cross and if we neglect the cross our salvation is in jeopardy.

 

[Chuckt]

That's why we need the cross, our sins are not justified and our works are rejected, we need the cross and if we neglect the cross our salvation is in jeopardy.

Believe in John 3:16 means "commit". It is more than mental ascent but it is trust.
It is the trust and love that makes you known of God.

 

[RobbyEarl]

If you believe in your heart and confess the Lord Jesus Christ the same shall be saved. Saved from what? you answer Chuck

 

[Chuckt]

If you believe in your heart and confess the Lord Jesus Christ the same shall be saved. Saved from what? you answer Chuck

Saved from the wrath of God. Saved from God's punishment which is hell. Saved from death which is eternal separation from God.

The simplified answer to knowing God which Judas didn't have because Judas didn't know God in that Judas didn't know God through His power and resurrection:

Philippians 3:10 I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

The word is Ginosko and one word for knowledge means to know God by just the facts and the other means to know Him experientially. Unsaved people don't know God experientially.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Thank you for the nice words.

The problem with that verse is that it says I never ever knew you. It is emphatic in the greek. It doesn't say, "I once knew you". It means, "I never ever knew you". So if they believed and fell away like the prodigal, does that mean they can't or won't come back. Does it mean that God never ever knew them? Will God have mercy?

Its written both ways though isnt it?

For example,

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Even as it says,

Psalm 101:4
A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.

2 Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one thatnameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Its written both ways though isnt it?

For example,

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Even as it says,

Psalm 101:4
A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.

2 Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one thatnameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

Not only that, we have individuals casting out demons in the name of Christ. This implies that they were indeed casting demons out of people and places. Now what happens when someone who has no spiritual authority tries to cast out a demon, even by using the name of Jesus?


ACTS 19:11:-20 NKJV
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We[a] exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered[b] them, and prevailed against them,[c] so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.


They did not have authority to cast out demons, since they did not have the Holy Spirit working in them.
Thus, those who did cast out demons had to have had the Holy Spirit since Satan cannot cast out Satan. A house divided cannot stand.

 

[wattie]

Is God's love not as great as a parent has for their child?

A parent, when they are doing their job right.. will not leave a child when they are being rebellious, or disown them.

If you believe eternal salvation can be undone.. you are saying God has LESS commitment than a parent has to their child.

A person is born again when they trust in Jesus. This is GREATER than being physically born into a biological family.. it is stronger..

NOT weaker.

Why?

Just as Chuckt has been typing all thru this thread.. a person who gets saved.. HAS everlasting life. It's done. This isn't a reason to go off and do whatever you want.. because wouldn't you want to give back to the freedom giver?

Also, Jesus will rebuke, admonish, encourage etc.. a saved person who is failing in their walk. So it isn't like there is no consequence for a believer getting caught in sin. Just not the consequence of hell.

End

 

[Grace777x70]

Its written both ways though isnt it?

For example,

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Even as it says,

Psalm 101:4
A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.

2 Ti 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one thatnameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

When you look up in Greek Luke 13:37 you will see that " I know you not" is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense is something that happened in the past with the effect of it continuing on in the present in a completed state.

Jesus is saying in Luke 13:37 I did not know you in the past and I still do not know you now in the present.

So, Luke 13:27 and Matt 77:23 are fully saying the exact same thing. Jesus "never knew" those in the verses at all at any time.

It is clear that these people were un-believers in Christ at any time as Jesus said He never knew them in both the perfect tense in Luke and in the aorist tense in Matthew which is saying the exact same thing.

Everyone with the new nature of Christ in them should be walking in who they are in Christ because of the new creation created in righteousness and holiness as they grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. 2 Tim 2:19

This verse is basically saying "be who you are in Christ". There are many such exhortations in the New Covenant to recognize who you are in Christ and to walk that out.

 

[HeraldtheNews]

The answer is in the blood of the Lamb. The entire Bible points to the blood sacrifice of Christ as being central to salvation, yet most discussions speaking against eternal security conveniently ignore the blood of Lamb as the main part of their arguments. Research the threads on this forum and see for yourself. My salvation is secured by His blood.

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Heb 9:12

The Bible clearly teaches that "Faith without works is dead." i.e., the absence of a real, born-again conversion relationship. The opposite is obviously true then: "Works without faith is just as dead." The whole Bible revolves around the marriage relationship between a man and woman-- bride and groom; husband and wife; Jesus confirmed this at the town of Cana when Mary, who was likely in charge of organizing the town wedding possibly for a family member, asked her Son to intervene by turning water into true wine-- the richness of a true, loving relationship that represents the Holy Spirit. The Lord is forever faithful to His bride, the church (all true Christian believers who love God and one another spiritually). But, God considers people's free-will to be sacred. There are dire warnings in the Bible about people who knowingly (with a sound mind) turn their back on God or reject God's love and mercy offered as a free-gift and who instead want to make up our own Covenant rules, and try to save ourselves on our own terms. Doubting God's word and faithfulness is similar to blaspheming God, by making an idol out of ourselves. Having a heart of entitlement is also a form of blaspheming God's Spirit. The veil of this life, like the atmosphere around the earth-- the Garden of Eden-- and the Blood of Christ, covers all sin. But, if people insist on blaspheming their marriage to Heaven, it can become like a marriage where a man or woman is secretly violating their marriage covenant by betraying their spouse. WE can not make up our own rules in life-- that is idolatry and can degrade into blasphemy-- lying to God. Eventually people can end up separating themselves from God, or at least from every reward in Heaven. The Bible even states that divorce can become a "garment of violence." Since Jesus said that abusing a child can wind a person up at the bottom of the sea-- a reference to the Pharoah's army pursuing the Israelites-- Abusing a spouse, usually a man's offense against a woman, but not always, is grounds for immediate divorce. Adultery, a very serious offense in the military, is perpetrating violence against a marriage, which Jesus taught is grounds for divorce, and by implication, so is abusing a spouse or children. No woman is bound to a violent man. Except for civil or national defense or defense of vulnerable people, violence was and is foreign in the community of Christ.