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My original undirected question was
Which is answered in Gal 5:22 (Yes) even as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17 we are to abide in the doctrine (or words of Christ) John 1:9
Abiding in the Vine (Jesus Christ) is here
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Not abiding in the doctrine of Christ
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son
His doctrine was not his own (but the Father's) John 7:16 so it is both
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you
The fruit of the Spirit is here
Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ephes 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Even as it says,
Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples
These are how they are known
Being broken off would be "from something" you dont break off from nothing. But here to what one is seemingly attached to, even if as by some sort of belief seeing it is possible to believe "for a while" or as those who believe unto the saving of the soul. But being broken off because of unbelief (or standing by faith in contrast) is what is shown.
Faith coming in through the hearing, and being the glue to hold the one to the other as would the sap of the one ( the Vine) passes into and thru the other (the branches).
And by faith (for example) the eunch's faith in Jesus Christ come out of the gospel as it is found in the OT and was preached by Philip (beginning there to preach Jesus Christ). These having testimony of Christ even as Jesus said, they are they which testify of me, and he also said of Moses words, saying, But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John 5:46-47 And because Moses wrote of him (who would come) his words apply as a testimony to Christ's words which were to be spoken after Duet 18:18, John 12:49 & Heb 3:5, which are also those to be answered to in the last day Duet 18:19 &John 12:48. One springboarding into the other. Even as faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of God in the same (whether we speak of written form) is the testimony of Jesus Christ in the former prophets, which Christ fulfilled.
Disregard that last paragraph so much as being immediately relevant, it was just an example of what I meant, that I would use to refer back to.
That which bears fruit is purged or pruned, I dont see a tressel, but I have heard of the tressel doctrine on this forum.
As trees and branches are fruit bearing here is a verse showing time for fruit
Luke 13:8 and the Vinedresser says, "Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: (lift it up? not here but rather) cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
I dont see much of a difference between people bearing fruit as trees or as branches that way.
There is that which is "nigh unto the cursing"
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end isto be burned
Just as he said even of false prophets
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Unbelief and faith are simply contrasted, its the first thing that comes by hearing.
Unbelief as opposed to faith was the reason the natural branches were broken off, and he said, take heed lest we be not spared even as the natural branches were not in that same just as in Hebrews 4:11 lest we fall after the same example of unbelief Heb 4:11
Jesus shows them which believe for awhile, just as many would turn back from him at some point in time, these not believing unto the saving of the soul.
To abide in Christ
Which is answered in Gal 5:22 (Yes) even as faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17 we are to abide in the doctrine (or words of Christ) John 1:9
Abiding in the Vine (Jesus Christ) is here
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Not abiding in the doctrine of Christ
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son
His doctrine was not his own (but the Father's) John 7:16 so it is both
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you
The fruit of the Spirit is here
Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ephes 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Even as it says,
Phil 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples
These are how they are known
Being broken off would be "from something" you dont break off from nothing. But here to what one is seemingly attached to, even if as by some sort of belief seeing it is possible to believe "for a while" or as those who believe unto the saving of the soul. But being broken off because of unbelief (or standing by faith in contrast) is what is shown.
Faith coming in through the hearing, and being the glue to hold the one to the other as would the sap of the one ( the Vine) passes into and thru the other (the branches).
And by faith (for example) the eunch's faith in Jesus Christ come out of the gospel as it is found in the OT and was preached by Philip (beginning there to preach Jesus Christ). These having testimony of Christ even as Jesus said, they are they which testify of me, and he also said of Moses words, saying, But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John 5:46-47 And because Moses wrote of him (who would come) his words apply as a testimony to Christ's words which were to be spoken after Duet 18:18, John 12:49 & Heb 3:5, which are also those to be answered to in the last day Duet 18:19 &John 12:48. One springboarding into the other. Even as faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of God in the same (whether we speak of written form) is the testimony of Jesus Christ in the former prophets, which Christ fulfilled.
Disregard that last paragraph so much as being immediately relevant, it was just an example of what I meant, that I would use to refer back to.
That which bears fruit is purged or pruned, I dont see a tressel, but I have heard of the tressel doctrine on this forum.
As trees and branches are fruit bearing here is a verse showing time for fruit
Luke 13:8 and the Vinedresser says, "Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: (lift it up? not here but rather) cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
I dont see much of a difference between people bearing fruit as trees or as branches that way.
There is that which is "nigh unto the cursing"
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end isto be burned
Just as he said even of false prophets
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Unbelief and faith are simply contrasted, its the first thing that comes by hearing.
Unbelief as opposed to faith was the reason the natural branches were broken off, and he said, take heed lest we be not spared even as the natural branches were not in that same just as in Hebrews 4:11 lest we fall after the same example of unbelief Heb 4:11
Jesus shows them which believe for awhile, just as many would turn back from him at some point in time, these not believing unto the saving of the soul.
To abide in Christ
- to remain, abide
- in reference to place
- to sojourn, tarry
- not to depart
- to continue to be present
- to be held, kept, continually
- to continue to be present
- to sojourn, tarry
- in reference to time
- to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
- of persons, to survive, live
- to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
- in reference to state or condition
- to remain as one, not to become another or different
- in reference to place
- to wait for, await one
John 15:2 clearly states the branch is in Him:
John 15:2 Every branch in me
In order to abide in Him, one must have heard and believed.
The issue is whether a believer can abide in the Lord Jesus Christ and have a season of no fruit evidenced.
I believe that it is possible to abide in Christ and have periods of dormancy. A believer who is a babe in Christ may not have fruit. A believer who is going through a season of trying may have a period with no fruit in evidence.
I believe the Father lifts up that believer. Father supports and nourishes him/her through spiritual infancy and/or those trying times. And I can tell you from experience in my own life that I have had periods of time when I was suffering mightily. I did not turn from the Lord Jesus Christ but rather clung more tightly to Him. He never left me and the Father most certainly did not take me away and cast me out even though I did not bear fruit for a season.
Having said that, if a believer never has fruit in his/her life, I would question whether he/she was truly a believer.
John 15:2 Every branch in me
In order to abide in Him, one must have heard and believed.
The issue is whether a believer can abide in the Lord Jesus Christ and have a season of no fruit evidenced.
I believe that it is possible to abide in Christ and have periods of dormancy. A believer who is a babe in Christ may not have fruit. A believer who is going through a season of trying may have a period with no fruit in evidence.
I believe the Father lifts up that believer. Father supports and nourishes him/her through spiritual infancy and/or those trying times. And I can tell you from experience in my own life that I have had periods of time when I was suffering mightily. I did not turn from the Lord Jesus Christ but rather clung more tightly to Him. He never left me and the Father most certainly did not take me away and cast me out even though I did not bear fruit for a season.
Having said that, if a believer never has fruit in his/her life, I would question whether he/she was truly a believer.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
I believe the words he taketh away (Greek "airei") mean "to lift up" rather than take away. I do not believe the Father removes believers who are abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ even though the believer does not bear fruit.
Others here believe that the reason the believer does not bear fruit is because he/she is not abiding and, therefore, is removed (taken away).
But the verse clearly says the branch is "in Me" so I don't know why there is a claim that the branch is not abiding.
I believe the words he taketh away (Greek "airei") mean "to lift up" rather than take away. I do not believe the Father removes believers who are abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ even though the believer does not bear fruit.
Others here believe that the reason the believer does not bear fruit is because he/she is not abiding and, therefore, is removed (taken away).
But the verse clearly says the branch is "in Me" so I don't know why there is a claim that the branch is not abiding.
The works-based mindset does not believe in Christ's ability to keep us and will not believe in the fact that being "in Christ" is a position/promise - a state of "being in Christ" and it is not conditional on our performance .
This is what they were taught in their church and it is a man-made doctrine that denies the efficacy of the blood of Christ. They do this despite what the scriptures show are contrary to this works-based mindset.
As far as "abiding in Christ" goes...it's a promise of our being in Him forever because of His finished work for us - not a "conditional" as works-based mindsets want us to believe.
Paul uses the phrase "in Christ, in Him, etc" - 146x times in his writing of all his books. We believers are in Christ and He does not throw us away into hell or the lake of fire as the works-based mindsets try to deceive us with.
Fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, etc. All 9 fruit of the Spirit Paul talked about in Gal.5
John 8:35 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. ( remain = same Greek word " abide " used in John 15 )
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; ( "with you" is the same Greek word as "abide" used in John 15 )
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. ( same word used in John 15 about "abiding in Christ" )
Jesus is the Truth and He abides in us forever!
1 John 4:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ( same word used here "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: ( forever is a very long time - same word "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
This is what they were taught in their church and it is a man-made doctrine that denies the efficacy of the blood of Christ. They do this despite what the scriptures show are contrary to this works-based mindset.
As far as "abiding in Christ" goes...it's a promise of our being in Him forever because of His finished work for us - not a "conditional" as works-based mindsets want us to believe.
Paul uses the phrase "in Christ, in Him, etc" - 146x times in his writing of all his books. We believers are in Christ and He does not throw us away into hell or the lake of fire as the works-based mindsets try to deceive us with.
Fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, etc. All 9 fruit of the Spirit Paul talked about in Gal.5
John 8:35 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. ( remain = same Greek word " abide " used in John 15 )
1 John 3:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; ( "with you" is the same Greek word as "abide" used in John 15 )
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. ( same word used in John 15 about "abiding in Christ" )
Jesus is the Truth and He abides in us forever!
1 John 4:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ( same word used here "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: ( forever is a very long time - same word "abides" as in John 15 - abides )
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Hi PilgrimPassingThru
I like your name or handle.
I would suggest that faith is not of us to begin with .It is the faith of God in view. The next verse informs us the washing and renewing of water by the word has already made us clean.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I think every time we deny him in unbelief, it shows our lack of His faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.
The importance of milk and the meat working together come into play
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 1Pe 2:1
While the milk of the word which causes our growth reveals his will it teaches us His gracious. And we never outgrow the need for His milk grace.
The fruit of the Spirit produces the meat or the food of His will to perform it or work out the faith, by the works that are preformed is the faith of God made perfect/complete . It is not of our own selves lest any many boast falsely. By it we can be perfect even as he is complete in his own self.
This reveals we have been equipped with the armor of God .It was the kind of meat or food the disciples knew not of. The disciples were familiar with the milk of the revealed will of God but not necessary able to perform it or bear the fruit of it. .
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
I like your name or handle.
I would suggest that faith is not of us to begin with .It is the faith of God in view. The next verse informs us the washing and renewing of water by the word has already made us clean.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
I think every time we deny him in unbelief, it shows our lack of His faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.
The importance of milk and the meat working together come into play
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 1Pe 2:1
While the milk of the word which causes our growth reveals his will it teaches us His gracious. And we never outgrow the need for His milk grace.
The fruit of the Spirit produces the meat or the food of His will to perform it or work out the faith, by the works that are preformed is the faith of God made perfect/complete . It is not of our own selves lest any many boast falsely. By it we can be perfect even as he is complete in his own self.
This reveals we have been equipped with the armor of God .It was the kind of meat or food the disciples knew not of. The disciples were familiar with the milk of the revealed will of God but not necessary able to perform it or bear the fruit of it. .
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
