The essential characteristics of the Biblical Jesus

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This one book contains numerous essays from a wide range of scholars...

The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1591026342/internetinfidels


thanks! any online resources dealing with the same issues? any rebuttals from other scholars yet?

judging from the reviews, it sounds like what the essays propose is for the most part a minority opinion... yes, it could be true.

but, even if the koran was written by early arab christians, it doesn't follow that the Jesus described in it has all the same essential characteristics of the biblical Jesus.
 
Both require derivation to arrive at a conclusion, and that was the point.

Keep straining that gnat, brother...

what I was saying was that math is more black-and-white than language translation.

so, the reputations of translators is more important than the reputations of mathematicians.

since we are talking about how to decide if someone is a good translator, I think that's an important issue.
 
are there other scholars who feel that more than 75% of the koran is a paraphrase of the bible? I'd be interested in ways to follow-up on that on the internet.

Not sure on that one...





before I talk about the bom, are you disagreeing that it's heavily influenced by the bible? or that it's a different Jesus?

The Bom admits to having wholesale copied the KJV Bible....thus, at least in these parts, it must refer to the same Biblical Jesus...



so, are you saying that most lexicologists say that Orthodox Trinitarian Christians authored the koran? if so, sources that can be checked on the internet would be great!


An excerpt from one of the World's most respected Arabist', E.W. Lane...(emphasis, mine)

Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree
.An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammad’s first four successors was an extensive corruption of their language; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy….
Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages. For the former language was that of the Kur-an and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code’ and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews….

The classical language they called, by reason of its incomparable excellence, “el-loghah,” or “the language:” and the line between this and the post-classical was easily drawn, on account of the almost sudden commencement, and rapid progress, of the corruption.

….I often have found in my knowledge of modern Arabic a solution of a difficulty; but without great caution, such knowledge would frequently have misled me, in consequence of the changes which have taken place in the applications of many words since the classical age.


References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. vii – viii; xxii - xxiii



Thus...

Lane is quite candid in his assertion that Modern Arabic is not only a very corrupt language, and care needs to be exercised as to the proper interpretation of words....but, that only Christians and Jews had the education level required to even write the Koran in the first place.

Couple this, with the fact that the Koran proclaims Jesus' deity, then we must conclude that early Arab Christians did indeed pen the text...




yes, consult experts... that's why I'm interested in other people who say what you're saying.


do you believe there's a conspiracy among arabic experts to suppress what you've found?

I'm positive I can do all things through Christ... but I need some reasons why spending time learning arabic is the best use of that time for me.

Dan...

Why do I keep getting the feeling that you are trying to get out of doing some work...?~ :)
 
Of course you are going to disagree, Dan!

You don't even do it for the very Bible that you believe in....so why should you for another book of faith?

Rotflol...!

true, I don't do it for the bible... I did learn some greek, but no hebrew.

at the same time, I don't believe *in* the bible... I believe *in* the Jesus that's described in the widely-used english translations of the bible.
 
The very fact that I am hated from both sides is evidence enough for me that I am on the right path...

I certainly don't hate you.

your feeling of being hated by both sides is evidence enough for you, but it's not enough for me... I don't think it will be enough for most muslims I encounter.
 
thanks! any online resources dealing with the same issues? any rebuttals from other scholars yet?

judging from the reviews, it sounds like what the essays propose is for the most part a minority opinion... yes, it could be true.

but, even if the koran was written by early arab christians, it doesn't follow that the Jesus described in it has all the same essential characteristics of the biblical Jesus.


I already showed you the 'alkitab' context of Jesus' Crucifixion in the Koran....so yes, Dan, the authors of the Koran plainly state this event as pertaining to the ones following the Holy Bible.

Keep straining that gnat...
 
what I was saying was that math is more black-and-white than language translation.

But it requires derivation, same as rendering.


so, the reputations of translators is more important than the reputations of mathematicians.

Non-sequitur.




since we are talking about how to decide if someone is a good translator, I think that's an important issue.

What names come to mind, for you...?
 
true, I don't do it for the bible... I did learn some greek, but no hebrew.

at the same time, I don't believe *in* the bible... I believe *in* the Jesus that's described in the widely-used english translations of the bible.

Why......?
 
I certainly don't hate you.

your feeling of being hated by both sides is evidence enough for you, but it's not enough for me... I don't think it will be enough for most muslims I encounter.

Hatred is often times the result of ignorance...
 
Not sure on that one...







The Bom admits to having wholesale copied the KJV Bible....thus, at least in these parts, it must refer to the same Biblical Jesus...






An excerpt from one of the World's most respected Arabist', E.W. Lane...(emphasis, mine)




Thus...

Lane is quite candid in his assertion that Modern Arabic is not only a very corrupt language, and care needs to be exercised as to the proper interpretation of words....but, that only Christians and Jews had the education level required to even write the Koran in the first place.

Couple this, with the fact that the Koran proclaims Jesus' deity, then we must conclude that early Arab Christians did indeed pen the text...






Dan...

Why do I keep getting the feeling that you are trying to get out of doing some work...?~ :)

yes, in the parts where the bom copies the kjv, I agree that's the same Jesus... but the bom as a whole? I also posted the new age author who quoted the bible... but, imo, different Jesus.

I see that the reference you quoted indicates that nearly all (but not all) arabs couldn't write. I don't see that it says what the beliefs of the potential authors were.

does Jesus' deity show up in the widely-used translations of the koran?

I am trying to get out of doing inefficent work. for me, at this time, learning classical arabic
in the hope that I can find support for your conclusions
so that I can witness to muslims
doesn't seem like a good idea.
 
I already showed you the 'alkitab' context of Jesus' Crucifixion in the Koran....so yes, Dan, the authors of the Koran plainly state this event as pertaining to the ones following the Holy Bible.

Keep straining that gnat...

well... I wrote *all* the essential characteristics not just the crucifixtion... but also the burial, resurrection... and many more.

I thought the passages you posted were from your own translation... a widely-used one would be helpful.

imo, these aren't "gnat" issues.
 
Tell us what it contains...

I don't need to read it to know that it is contrary to the Bible.

Do you have to touch each stove you see to know it burns?

The mind is not renewed by vain philosophies of men, (islam falls into that category) but the word of God.

I suppose it is a matter of earthly wisdom vs God's wisdom

and which one chooses to study.....just my foolish thoughts
 
I already showed you the 'alkitab' context of Jesus' Crucifixion in the Koran....so yes, Dan, the authors of the Koran plainly state this event as pertaining to the ones following the Holy Bible.

Keep straining that gnat...

and you, sir, keep swallowing those camels ;)
 
But it requires derivation, same as rendering.




Non-sequitur.






What names come to mind, for you...?

the derivation is more black-and-white, imo.

I believe it follows very much in sequence.

the two translations used at carm.org, so far.
 
yes, in the parts where the bom copies the kjv, I agree that's the same Jesus... but the bom as a whole? I also posted the new age author who quoted the bible... but, imo, different Jesus.

Still wanting me to prove your point again, Dan?



I see that the reference you quoted indicates that nearly all (but not all) arabs couldn't write. I don't see that it says what the beliefs of the potential authors were.

You don't yet know what Jews and Christians believe...?





does Jesus' deity show up in the widely-used translations of the koran?

Yes.




I am trying to get out of doing inefficent work. for me, at this time, learning classical arabic
in the hope that I can find support for your conclusions
so that I can witness to muslims
doesn't seem like a good idea.

Find what works for you....
 
well... I wrote *all* the essential characteristics not just the crucifixtion... but also the burial, resurrection... and many more.

I thought the passages you posted were from your own translation... a widely-used one would be helpful.

imo, these aren't "gnat" issues.


I would offer to go over the Arabic with you...but, you have made it abundantly clear that you can't be bothered with that...
 
I don't need to read it to know that it is contrary to the Bible.

Really?





Do you have to touch each stove you see to know it burns?

I did with the first one that I saw.




The mind is not renewed by vain philosophies of men, (islam falls into that category) but the word of God.

I suppose it is a matter of earthly wisdom vs God's wisdom

and which one chooses to study.....just my foolish thoughts


There's an old saying that you can learn more from your enemies than your friends...