This simply is not true Dan. The Greek will not support any movement for εἰς except forward motion and remission of sin does indeed refer to both clauses. It is a simple matter of grammatical construction. There are no rules in Greek grammar that will support such a contention as that argued by Robertson. But then again, you and I have been through all of this before so this is more for those who may not know the difference.
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C
Acts 2:38 may be translated,"Be baptized because of the remission of sins"-Dr. Charles Ryrie
I researched it further on the internet and found:
Peter makes it clear that the resurrection of Christ saves us and not baptism 1 Peter 1:3. -Scholars
If I say,"Take an aspirin -for- a headache", does that mean 'take an aspirin to get a headache"?
Acts 2:38 Peter made no reference to baptism in his next recorded sermon Acts 3:19 - Scholars
”For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
Paul here draws a distinction between baptism and the gospel. And since it is the gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1,2), baptism is clearly not necessary to attain salvation. (Dr. Oliver B. Greene, Dr. Ron Rhoades)
our faith in Christ, not baptism, is what saves us (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).
Now, notice the latter part of the verse: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). It is unbelief that brings damnation, not a lack of being baptized.
I researched it further on the internet and found:
Peter makes it clear that the resurrection of Christ saves us and not baptism 1 Peter 1:3. -Scholars
If I say,"Take an aspirin -for- a headache", does that mean 'take an aspirin to get a headache"?
Acts 2:38 Peter made no reference to baptism in his next recorded sermon Acts 3:19 - Scholars
”For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
Paul here draws a distinction between baptism and the gospel. And since it is the gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1,2), baptism is clearly not necessary to attain salvation. (Dr. Oliver B. Greene, Dr. Ron Rhoades)
our faith in Christ, not baptism, is what saves us (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).
Now, notice the latter part of the verse: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). It is unbelief that brings damnation, not a lack of being baptized.
I understand this is the view of many but it simply is not true, at least not as εἰς is used in the NT. Nowhere in the NT is εἰς ever translated as because of by any credible translator. While the English word 'for' can mean because of, the word εἰς never does. Its movement is always only forward motion.
R
Baptismal regeneration is one of many salvation by works teachings. And like all of them, people go to their favorite pet verses to teach their heresy. For baptismal regeneration, Acts 2:38 is Satan's favorite verse!
We were not redeemed by H2O, but with the precious blood of Christ!(1 Pet 1:18-19). His blood dealt with our sins, not water!
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" Rev 1:5
We were not redeemed by H2O, but with the precious blood of Christ!(1 Pet 1:18-19). His blood dealt with our sins, not water!
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" Rev 1:5
There are numerous references to eternal salvation having no association with eternal salvation
John 3:16
John 5:24
Romans chapter 10
A few examples of many
The other thing about 'being baptised for the remission of sins'.. is that baptism is in effect telling the world you are turning from un-Christ-like ways.. turning from sin. Of course, the turning from sin not being dependent on eternal salvation.
So it isn't eternal salvation but it does picture it.
Also the wider context around 'being baptised for the remission of sins' settles the issue.
C
"Now, having heard this, they were stung to the heart with poignant sorry. And they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, What shall we do, men, brothers? And Peter said to them, Have a change of mind, that change of mind being accompanied by abhorrence of and sorrow for your deed, and let each one of you be baptized upon the ground of your confession of believe in the sum total of all that Jesus Christ is in His glorious Person, this baptismal testimony being in relation to the fact that your sins have been put away, and you shall receive the gratuitous gift of the Holy Spirit, for to you is the promise and to your children and to all who are at a distance, as many as the Lord our God shall with a divine summons call to himself. And with many other words he solemnly affirmed, and kept on exhorting them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Then those who receive his word with approval were immersed. And there were added to their number on that day about three thousand souls."-Acts 2:37-41, The New Testament, An Expanded Translation, Dr Kenneth Weust
Dr. Kenneth Wuest, NASB translator has baptism testimony being in relation to the fact that your sins have been put away and not for baptismal regeneration.
I think the confusing thing is that Belief and Baptism were simultaneous events which may add to the confusion and we do not have belief and simultaneous baptism in the church today as far as I have encountered.
https://carm.org/baptism-and-acts-238
Dr. Kenneth Wuest, NASB translator has baptism testimony being in relation to the fact that your sins have been put away and not for baptismal regeneration.
I think the confusing thing is that Belief and Baptism were simultaneous events which may add to the confusion and we do not have belief and simultaneous baptism in the church today as far as I have encountered.
https://carm.org/baptism-and-acts-238
R
There are numerous references to eternal salvation having no association with eternal salvation
John 3:16
John 5:24
Romans chapter 10
A few examples of many
The other thing about 'being baptised for the remission of sins'.. is that baptism is in effect telling the world you are turning from un-Christ-like ways.. turning from sin. Of course, the turning from sin not being dependent on eternal salvation.
So it isn't eternal salvation but it does picture it.
Also the wider context around 'being baptised for the remission of sins' settles the issue.
John 3:16
John 5:24
Romans chapter 10
A few examples of many
The other thing about 'being baptised for the remission of sins'.. is that baptism is in effect telling the world you are turning from un-Christ-like ways.. turning from sin. Of course, the turning from sin not being dependent on eternal salvation.
So it isn't eternal salvation but it does picture it.
Also the wider context around 'being baptised for the remission of sins' settles the issue.
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23
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This is Wuest's attempt to separate the clauses in the Greek. If you will notice, he does not translate the verse but offers his explanation of the verse disguised as a translation. He attempts the same A. T. Robertson does and this argument simply will not stand the test of the grammatical structure in the Greek. What really disturbs me about this is that both of these men knew better. Their approach to this text is driven by their soteriology and because the structure of this verse will not support that soteriology, they and others attempt to manipulate the grammar in their favor. I am not trying to make a philosophical or soteriologial argument at this point. All I am doing is arguing a simple point of grammar from the Greek. No matter what one's soteriologial position may be it does not change the structure of this verse nor the implication thereof. Wuest and Robertson are wrong.
There are many different baptisms. But only one that can save us.
There is a Baptism of the Holy Ghost
There is a Baptism of Fire
There is a Baptism of Water
There is even a Baptism for the dead
Baptism of water is symbolic, which allows witnesses that you have given your life over to Jesus Christ. It is a metaphore of washing away your past sins, and coming up out of the water as White as snow.
There is a difference between water baptism and Holy Ghost Baptism. The Holy Ghost baptism is what is needed in order to be Saved. Anyone can be water Baptized. And all Christians if they are able (NOT required though) to get water baptized, should do so to fulfill all righteousness, to have public witnesses that you claim to be a Christian. Let everything be established by two or three witnesses.
Water Baptism is a type of flesh transformation, dirty flesh to clean flesh.
Holy Spirit Baptism is when your heart is changed. You are no longer the same person you use to be. You are a different person.
Someone who has been Holy Spirit Baptized, no longer lives their life to please themselves, they live their life to please God. Their heart is changed. The desires they once had, they no longer have, they have a NEW heart, a different heart. Many and i say MANY people have been water Baptized and still have the same heart they have always had, because they are NOT Holy Spirit Baptized. Those who are Holy Ghost Baptized, will never be the same again. And they are very Few. in this last days generation.
^i^
There is a Baptism of the Holy Ghost
There is a Baptism of Fire
There is a Baptism of Water
There is even a Baptism for the dead
Baptism of water is symbolic, which allows witnesses that you have given your life over to Jesus Christ. It is a metaphore of washing away your past sins, and coming up out of the water as White as snow.
There is a difference between water baptism and Holy Ghost Baptism. The Holy Ghost baptism is what is needed in order to be Saved. Anyone can be water Baptized. And all Christians if they are able (NOT required though) to get water baptized, should do so to fulfill all righteousness, to have public witnesses that you claim to be a Christian. Let everything be established by two or three witnesses.
Water Baptism is a type of flesh transformation, dirty flesh to clean flesh.
Holy Spirit Baptism is when your heart is changed. You are no longer the same person you use to be. You are a different person.
Someone who has been Holy Spirit Baptized, no longer lives their life to please themselves, they live their life to please God. Their heart is changed. The desires they once had, they no longer have, they have a NEW heart, a different heart. Many and i say MANY people have been water Baptized and still have the same heart they have always had, because they are NOT Holy Spirit Baptized. Those who are Holy Ghost Baptized, will never be the same again. And they are very Few. in this last days generation.
^i^
The grammatical structure of Acts 2:38 is identical with those instances in scripture where we are told to believe into (eis) Christ. I believe that all of the instances where it is said to believe in Christ, the preposition used is eis (into). The verb (believe) moves us into the object (Christ), just as the verb (be water baptized) moves us into the object (remission of sins).
C
None of the commentaries on Biblehub I read believe the literal translation because they all do not teach Baptismal regeneration.
I am reading Dr. Oliver B Greene's commentary on Acts 2:38-39 and he has pages on why Baptism doesn't save.
Several of the translations Biblehub use "unto" instead of "for" (remissions of sins).
Becca seems translators don't want to make a mistake, they translate things very literally so I am not convinced.
I am reading Dr. Oliver B Greene's commentary on Acts 2:38-39 and he has pages on why Baptism doesn't save.
Several of the translations Biblehub use "unto" instead of "for" (remissions of sins).
Becca seems translators don't want to make a mistake, they translate things very literally so I am not convinced.
Here is a list of all the possible ways εἰς is translated in the English translations.
about (1), against (18), among (10), become* (5), before (2), before* (1), benefit (1), bestowed (1), beyond (1), beyond* (2), bring about (1), bring* (1), continually* (1), eliminated* (2), end (2), even (1), ever* (2), forever* (1), forward* (3), leading (2), leads (1), mine* (1), never* (1), next* (1), onto (2), over (1), perpetually* (1), reference (2), regard (3), relation (1), respect (2), result (3), resulted (2), resulting (10), sake (1), so (34), throughout (3), toward (23), until (4), view (3), why* (4). It is even on occasion rendered as 'at' or 'on', although I would certainly challenge the 'on'. The one thing it is NEVER rendered is "because of'. If 'because of' was a possible translation for εἰς then why is it that no translators have ever been willing to go out on a limb to translate it this way in any English translation. And why is this the only verse where it is called into question? The reason they do not translate it this way is because as Greek scholars, their reputation is at stake and they are not about to do something this blatant. These men KNOW what this verse says and they do not like it nor what it implies so, some (certainly not all) take great pains to try to manipulate the construction to try to change the meaning. If you like, I would be happy to go through the Greek with you on this in detail.
about (1), against (18), among (10), become* (5), before (2), before* (1), benefit (1), bestowed (1), beyond (1), beyond* (2), bring about (1), bring* (1), continually* (1), eliminated* (2), end (2), even (1), ever* (2), forever* (1), forward* (3), leading (2), leads (1), mine* (1), never* (1), next* (1), onto (2), over (1), perpetually* (1), reference (2), regard (3), relation (1), respect (2), result (3), resulted (2), resulting (10), sake (1), so (34), throughout (3), toward (23), until (4), view (3), why* (4). It is even on occasion rendered as 'at' or 'on', although I would certainly challenge the 'on'. The one thing it is NEVER rendered is "because of'. If 'because of' was a possible translation for εἰς then why is it that no translators have ever been willing to go out on a limb to translate it this way in any English translation. And why is this the only verse where it is called into question? The reason they do not translate it this way is because as Greek scholars, their reputation is at stake and they are not about to do something this blatant. These men KNOW what this verse says and they do not like it nor what it implies so, some (certainly not all) take great pains to try to manipulate the construction to try to change the meaning. If you like, I would be happy to go through the Greek with you on this in detail.
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A big part of this also is defining what 'the church' is.
The most popular belief is that it is every true believer and it is a local church.
My belief is that every believer isn't 'the church'.. but is part of the Kingdom and Family of God. The 'church' being a local assembly of saved baptised believers only. Eg. At Ephesus..At Phillipi.. At Corinth.. etc..
Either of one church in particular.. or a generic reference. One church-- at Corinth... generic reference: 'the church is the pillar and ground of the truth'
The later example being a case of 'the horse' or 'the post office'.. it's a local visible entity still.. but not of one being referred to in particular. Another example.. 'the purpose of the church is to be a lighthouse to the world'.. that's not one church in particular but is still of the local and visible entity of a local church.
Why does this matter?
Because you have baptism being attached to membership to the body of Christ!
if the body of Christ is a local church.. then eternal salvation has nothing to do with it. Baptism becomes a pre-requisite for joining a local church as a member.
if the body of Christ is every believer.. then you have baptism putting you into the every believer entity.. which sounds a lot like association with eternal salvation to me!
Now.. yes there will be one entity of all believers as one body one day.. but that is in heaven. We are not there yet.
The body of Christ:
assembles
has elders and a pastor
has lords supper and tithing
teaches straight from the Word
has Jesus as the Head
That isn't an entity of every believer.. that's a biblical,local church
The most popular belief is that it is every true believer and it is a local church.
My belief is that every believer isn't 'the church'.. but is part of the Kingdom and Family of God. The 'church' being a local assembly of saved baptised believers only. Eg. At Ephesus..At Phillipi.. At Corinth.. etc..
Either of one church in particular.. or a generic reference. One church-- at Corinth... generic reference: 'the church is the pillar and ground of the truth'
The later example being a case of 'the horse' or 'the post office'.. it's a local visible entity still.. but not of one being referred to in particular. Another example.. 'the purpose of the church is to be a lighthouse to the world'.. that's not one church in particular but is still of the local and visible entity of a local church.
Why does this matter?
Because you have baptism being attached to membership to the body of Christ!
if the body of Christ is a local church.. then eternal salvation has nothing to do with it. Baptism becomes a pre-requisite for joining a local church as a member.
if the body of Christ is every believer.. then you have baptism putting you into the every believer entity.. which sounds a lot like association with eternal salvation to me!
Now.. yes there will be one entity of all believers as one body one day.. but that is in heaven. We are not there yet.
The body of Christ:
assembles
has elders and a pastor
has lords supper and tithing
teaches straight from the Word
has Jesus as the Head
That isn't an entity of every believer.. that's a biblical,local church
C
Repentance and Baptism
First you will notice that Peter does not speak of baptism only, but of both repentance and baptism. "Repent and let every one of you be baptized... for the forgiveness of sins..." (Acts 2:38). If the argument places forgiveness before baptism, it also places forgiveness before repentance. In other words, a person should repent not to receive forgiveness, but because forgiveness has already taken place, and therefore repentance is not necessary to forgiveness.
This would make all the translators wrong who make Peter say, "Repent and return so that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). If the argument is correct, then the translators are incorrect. They should make Peter say, “Repent and return because your sins have been be blotted out.”
Of course the translators are right and the argument wrong. No translators render either Acts 2:38 or Acts 3:19 so as to put repentance afterforgiveness. Rather, they all put repentance before forgiveness, as a condition of forgiveness. And if Peter has put repentance before forgiveness, that's where he has also put baptism, because he gave both repentance and baptism the same relationship to forgiveness viz "Repent and ...be baptized... for the forgiveness of sins..." (Acts 2:38).
Baptism and the Greek Word “eis”
I too can have fun.
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Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,
I've only glanced at this thread and this may not contribute to the discussion, but Paul and Silus told the Philippian jailer to believe on, ἐπί, the Lord Jesus (πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ καὶ ὁ οἶκός σου). I haven't found any other prepositions used - but then haven't looked much.