Forty years (or so) of feminism. Has it changed the way woman view themselves? Has...

[proverbs35]

Presidente said: One of the major problems that has come along with feminism is disobedience to scripture in the area of marriage.

Disobedience to scripture in the area of marriage happened during patriarchy too. Feminism didn't create or cause disobedience in the area of marriage. Disobedience in the area of marriage existed under patriarchy long before the concept of feminism was fathomed or coined. There are countless examples of disobedience in the area of marriages that happened during patriarchy in the Bible and throughout history:

Malachi 2:16 tells us that the men in that patriarchal society were cruel to their wives, dealt treacherously with them and divorced them. That happened doing patriarchy - not feminism.

King David used his position and power to commit adultery with another man's wife and had that man killed during patriarchy. This caused a breakdown with in David's own family.

Judah had a reputation for visiting prostitutes. However, he was more than willing to have his pregnant daughter-in-law burned at the stake until He realized That he had fathered the twins she was carrying. Genesis 38:15.

Modern examples:
President Thomas Jefferson used his wife's black half sister - Sally Hemings -as a sex slave. It was not uncommon for men, slave owners, who were in charge of their homes during Antebellum slavery to keep sex slaves just like many of the patriarchs in the Bible.

Josh Duggar - A well-known patriarchy supporter - sexually molested his sisters when they were younger. His parents used their influence and resources to keep this hidden. As an adult, he used his power & resources to secretly cheat on his submissive wife with prostitutes.

Governor Bentley, a man who campaigned on traditional Family Values, is currently involved in a sex scandal. It's believed that he used Campaign and government funds to pay and entertain his mistress. Some lawmakers are seeking to impeach him.

The list of examples of the kind of Disobedience that has been committed under patriarchy is countless.

Presidente said: TV, the movies, and other media teach against the idea that a woman should submit to her husband.

Our role models can be found in scripture, and our ultimate role model is Christ. TV is for entertainment. It's a fantasy. A lot of people thought Heathcliff Huxtable was a positive role model. However, Now we are finding out that Bill Cosby's real life and real marriage is nothing like that of Heathcliff Huxtable. The same thing applies to Josh Duggar. The Bible never told us that we could or should find role models on TV.

I'm not defending feminism. A lot of sin has been and continues to be committed in the name of feminism. However, a lot of sin and Disobedience has been and continues to be committed under the banner of patriarchy. There are countless examples of that in the news - worldwide and local. I'm not defending feminism, but I am pointing out the pot calling the kettle black tactic of using feminism as a scapegoat, While completely ignoring the many sins and Disobedience committed under the banner of patriarchy. It's very reminiscent of the woman caught in adultery. The Patriarchs of that era had no problem with accusing the adulterous woman, but let the man go unpunished. It was impossible for her to commit adultery by herself. Modern-day patriarchy supporters don't mind metaphorically stoning feminism, but they are all too eager to let the sin & disobedience that has happened under the banner of patriarchy go without mention, notice or accountability, And that's hypocrisy.

 

[proverbs35]

Many women grew up without a role model from their mothers or grandmothers submitting to their husbands.

Likewise, many women grew up without fathers or grandfathers who submitted to God and loved their wives like Christ loved the church.

Likewise, many men grew up without ever seeing or having a father or grandfather who submitted to God and loved his wife like Christ loved the church.


Presidente said :The subject is so sensitive, many preachers don't want to teach on it.

Preachers don't teach on a lot of things. For example, there are a very few sermons on domestic violence, Although domestic violence is an epidemic.

There are not many sermons about a husband's duty to submit to God and other Earthly Authorities and model submission for his wife and children. As the leader, husbands are supposed to be Role Models. Jesus didn't just preach submission; he did it. Jesus led by example. Paul didn't just preach submission; he did it. He led by example. However, I haven't heard many sermons on a husband's duty to lead by submissive example and model submission for his wife and children.

 

[presidente]

I'm not defending feminism. A lot of sin has been and continues to be committed in the name of feminism. However, a lot of sin and Disobedience has been and continues to be committed under the banner of patriarchy. There are countless examples of that in the news - worldwide and local. I'm not defending feminism, but I am pointing out the pot calling the kettle black tactic of using feminism as a scapegoat, While completely ignoring the many sins and Disobedience committed under the banner of patriarchy. It's very reminiscent of the woman caught in adultery. The Patriarchs of that era had no problem with accusing the adulterous woman, but let the man go unpunished. It was impossible for her to commit adultery by herself. Modern-day patriarchy supporters don't mind metaphorically stoning feminism, but they are all too eager to let the sin & disobedience that has happened under the banner of patriarchy go without mention, notice or accountability, And that's hypocrisy.

The men of the first century probably didn't fly the banner 'patriarchy.' The term is apparently used in some really conservative fundamentalist homes that practice home school, having large families, etc.

But if we look at various societies in history, many of them are patriarchal, even if they don't call themselves that.

The question is, is society as God ordained it, and are the commands of God that God gave to Israel feminist or patriarchal? Many commands are patriarchal. Feminism isn't Biblical. The Bible doesn't teach feminism, certainly not the variety that makes 'the patriarchy' out to be an oppressive force against women. Having land pass through the male line is patriarchal. Having men have the authority to cancel wives and daughter's vows but not vice versa is patriarchal.

And everything is patriarchal, rule by the father, since the Father is over all. Sin is rebellion against this kind of patriarchy, the rule of the Father.

 

[Angela53510]

Perhaps I am quite old, but I have been a feminist a lot longer than 40 years! And yes, feminism has done some harm, but it has also done tremendous good! My father always taught and expected that I could accomplish anything I set my mind to, whether career or family. Although my parents demonstrated traditional roles, I did not find that a positive. My mom was a brilliant woman, who stayed home, played wife and mother, got bored and lonely. That led to anxiety and depression. My father passed away 5 years ago, and my mother never developed a single interest or hobby outside of my father, and after 62 years of marriage, she is a miserable person.

My sister and I pursued both marriage and careers, and we have a lot of interests. In fact, the worst time in my life was after I was saved I was told to be the submissive little wife, and my husband figured he had it made! It took me quite a few readings of the Bible, to realize that the patriarchy died on the cross with Christ, and God empowered both men and women to serve and follow him.

My marriage is so much happier and better since I stopped believing the lie of man as domineering and wife as subserviant doormat. We still have traditional roles, back in our day, girls weren't allowed to take shop, and boys weren't allowed to take home ec. So I can't change the oil on the car, although I am good with some tools from being a jeweller, and building a lot of homes. I cook all the meals, but now that my hands are so damaged and hurting, my husband has learned to cut veggies, and do grocery shopping too! Although there was literally nothing left to eat in the house, since hubby had been following my shopping lists, and missing all the things I forgot to write down! But the cupboards and fridges are now stocked, till next time.

Well, presidente has been known for his radical and unbiblical stance on women as people in some very long threads in the past, so I won't address his nonsense. I certainly don't agree with the other extreme, with women trying to have power over men, and treating them with disrespect!

Scripture shows us so many examples of bold and courageous women serving God, saving their families, nations, and sharing the gospel. From Deborah and Jael, to Ruth, Esther, Priscilla and Phoebe, God has used women as leaders and shown that the Biblical model for men and women is equality in marriage and in society.

"Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

 

[Miri]

The men of the first century probably didn't fly the banner 'patriarchy.' The term is apparently used in some really conservative fundamentalist homes that practice home school, having large families, etc.

But if we look at various societies in history, many of them are patriarchal, even if they don't call themselves that.

The question is, is society as God ordained it, and are the commands of God that God gave to Israel feminist or patriarchal? Many commands are patriarchal. Feminism isn't Biblical. The Bible doesn't teach feminism, certainly not the variety that makes 'the patriarchy' out to be an oppressive force against women. Having land pass through the male line is patriarchal. Having men have the authority to cancel wives and daughter's vows but not vice versa is patriarchal.

And everything is patriarchal, rule by the father, since the Father is over all. Sin is rebellion against this kind of patriarchy, the rule of the Father.

Society has never been as God ordained it, since the fall.

All of creation suffered at the fall, things changed and the penalty handed out to
BOTH Adam and Eve was due to the sin and separation from God.

But in Jesus we are no longer separated and Christ has set us all free.
Are there still weeds, rust, hard labour, toil, pain in childbirth. Yes there is
because even though we are new creations, we still live on old planet earth
which is waiting in ernest for the coming of Christ.

Galatians 3:26-29 NKJV
[26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of
you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor
Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are
all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.



whenever the following verses are quoted to prove the point of the
natural order of family life, they always seem to miss out the bit about slaves and
masters. If you sincerely believe this to the letter, then should not you also
practice what it says in regard to employees, staff and also if you are an employee,
should you not also serve your employer sincerely.

Its funny how these verses are used to take a big stick to women, but I wonder how
many men follow them all word for word.

In my opinion, Paul was setting out that christens were to be different they were to
show the love of Christ to each other, they were to be faithful servents. They were
suppose to let their light shine as a living testimony. But every one who uses verses
like this to put women down and Lord it over them, has already failed to live out
these verses as Jesus intended.



Colossians 3:18-25 NKJV
[18] Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. [19] Husbands,
love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. [20] Children, obey your parents
in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord. [21] Fathers, do not provoke your
children, lest they become discouraged. [22] Bondservants, obey in all things your
masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity
of heart, fearing God. [23] And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and
not to men, [24] knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the
inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. [25] But he who does wrong will be
repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

 

[Miri]

Society has never been as God ordained it, since the fall.

All of creation suffered at the fall, things changed and the penalty handed out to
BOTH Adam and Eve was due to the sin and separation from God.

But in Jesus we are no longer separated and Christ has set us all free.
Are there still weeds, rust, hard labour, toil, pain in childbirth. Yes there is
because even though we are new creations, we still live on old planet earth
which is waiting in ernest for the coming of Christ.

Galatians 3:26-29 NKJV
[26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of
you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor
Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are
all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.



whenever the following verses are quoted to prove the point of the
natural order of family life, they always seem to miss out the bit about slaves and
masters. If you sincerely believe this to the letter, then should not you also
practice what it says in regard to employees, staff and also if you are an employee,
should you not also serve your employer sincerely.

Its funny how these verses are used to take a big stick to women, but I wonder how
many men follow them all word for word.

In my opinion, Paul was setting out that christens were to be different they were to
show the love of Christ to each other, they were to be faithful servents. They were
suppose to let their light shine as a living testimony. But every one who uses verses
like this to put women down and Lord it over them, has already failed to live out
these verses as Jesus intended.



Colossians 3:18-25 NKJV
[18] Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. [19] Husbands,
love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. [20] Children, obey your parents
in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord. [21] Fathers, do not provoke your
children, lest they become discouraged. [22] Bondservants, obey in all things your
masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity
of heart, fearing God. [23] And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and
not to men, [24] knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the
inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. [25] But he who does wrong will be
repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

Nowhere do these verses say the little woman is expected to stay at home,
pad around the house barefoot, push out children, never use their brains,
never go to work, never develop their personally or skills, talents.
Nowhere does it say they should never have a say in decisions and just be a yes
sir no sir kind of a person.

Nowhere does it say they cannot exhort, prayer, spread the gospel, encourage,
develope their own relationship with Christ.
Nowhere does it say they should not be financially wise, make money, buy property.
etc etc etc.

Nowhere does it say they should not be educated, gain university degrees,
be responsible members of society, vote and much much more.

Feminism if it does exist, in my opinion is about the rights to do all of the above
as men across the ages have completely misinterpretated the bible verses.

If anything Christ came to set us free! How important it is to have a different attitude
to religions like Islam, who still consider women to be worthless slaves.

 

[coby2]

The men of the first century probably didn't fly the banner 'patriarchy.' The term is apparently used in some really conservative fundamentalist homes that practice home school, having large families, etc.

But if we look at various societies in history, many of them are patriarchal, even if they don't call themselves that.

The question is, is society as God ordained it, and are the commands of God that God gave to Israel feminist or patriarchal? Many commands are patriarchal. Feminism isn't Biblical. The Bible doesn't teach feminism, certainly not the variety that makes 'the patriarchy' out to be an oppressive force against women. Having land pass through the male line is patriarchal. Having men have the authority to cancel wives and daughter's vows but not vice versa is patriarchal.

And everything is patriarchal, rule by the father, since the Father is over all. Sin is rebellion against this kind of patriarchy, the rule of the Father.

Don't agree. You don't think the Bible speaks against these muslim men (only the insane ones) oppressing their wives, hitting her if she is disobedient?
The man being the head of the house, like the father of Corrie ten Boom, if that's patriarchy, I'm all for patriarchy. Patriarchy to me is those lazy guys that don't even cook or clean or just watch tv while they let their wife get the finances in and they have the right to sit on their lazy ass after a day work but she hasn't. Every control out of selfishness is bad and both men and women can do it.

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

 

[JosephsDreams]

By Angela53510, post #84 - "Perhaps I am quite old, but I have been a feminist a lot longer than 40 years!"

A few people mentioned that the organized Fem movement started earlier then in the mid '70's. I had meant to type in five 0, as it started to gain steam and national attention in the mid '60's. By the time I realized my typo, I could not change it.

 

[coby2]

Now there's post feminism I just saw on youtube: young girls marrying an old rich guy and they do nothing but spend his money and he has his patriarchy.

 

[JosephsDreams]

When I was young, I use to hate the old men hitting on the young gals. I promised myself when I got older I would never embarrass myself like that, or make someone feel uncomfortable.
Thank God, I kept that promise.
A single non Christian single friend of mine who is balding and overweight, in his late 50's keeps talking about marrying a woman in her mid thirties. I roll my eyes and tell him to get real.
So while in some ways I am saddened to see such a situation you mentioned Coby, about the young woman spending all the old mans money, in another way, tough, that's what he gets.

 

[Utah]

Now there's post feminism I just saw on youtube: young girls marrying an old rich guy and they do nothing but spend his money and he has his patriarchy.

A hospital chaplain was visiting patients in the ICU offering emotional support and prayer. He saw a woman about 25 years of age sitting at the bedside of an 80 year old man. The chaplain asked, "is this your grandfather?" and the woman snapped back, "this is my husband, thank you!" Lol.

 

[coby2]

When I was young, I use to hate the old men hitting on the young gals. I promised myself when I got older I would never embarrass myself like that, or make someone feel uncomfortable.
Thank God, I kept that promise.
A single non Christian single friend of mine who is balding and overweight, in his late 50's keeps talking about marrying a woman in her mid thirties. I roll my eyes and tell him to get real.
So while in some ways I am saddened to see such a situation you mentioned Coby, about the young woman spending all the old mans money, in another way, tough, that's what he gets.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJCZVcCQR3E

 

[JosephsDreams]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJCZVcCQR3E

That was hysterical, especially the last 30, 35 seconds

 

[Tinuviel]

Horrors of horrors, it has RESTRICTED the way I talk! ME, a woman who by law of feminism should have a BETTER right to speak my mind than men do. I no longer feel I can say "I can do that" or "I love big trucks" or "I like to wear jeans" without being classed as "one of those girls".

 

[Utah]

Horrors of horrors, it has RESTRICTED the way I talk! ME, a woman who by law of feminism should have a BETTER right to speak my mind than men do. I no longer feel I can say "I can do that" or "I love big trucks" or "I like to wear jeans" without being classed as "one of those girls".

"Those" girls are loved, unlike the ones who attempt to censor others. Be yourself and rejoice!

 

[coby2]

Horrors of horrors, it has RESTRICTED the way I talk! ME, a woman who by law of feminism should have a BETTER right to speak my mind than men do. I no longer feel I can say "I can do that" or "I love big trucks" or "I like to wear jeans" without being classed as "one of those girls".

What on earth do people have against jeans? I don't get it. I wear it all the time.

 

[Tinuviel]

"Those" girls are loved, unlike the ones who attempt to censor others. Be yourself and rejoice!

Don't get me wrong, I love "those" girls too. But I'd like some people to think about the feminism issue, which has gone plenty far enough. I don't give a rap what I can and can't say about the issue. I'm just trying to live my life as a godly woman, which for me includes letting men be men.

 

[Tinuviel]

What on earth do people have against jeans? I don't get it. I wear it all the time.

Amazin' things, jeans. Have you ever tried mucking out a chicken house in a skirt? Me either.

 

[Utah]

Don't get me wrong, I love "those" girls too. But I'd like some people to think about the feminism issue, which has gone plenty far enough. I don't give a rap what I can and can't say about the issue. I'm just trying to live my life as a godly woman, which for me includes letting men be men.

You're a cool chick. God bless you, Tinuviel.

 

[Tinuviel]

You're a cool chick. God bless you, Tinuviel.

God bless you too.