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S
Hebrews 4:9-10 is not talking about a literal keeping of the Sabbath. Read both verses together and in context...read the whole book of Hebrews in fact. Hebrews 3 and 4 are contrasting the Mosaic Covenant Sabbath with the "Sabbath" of the New Covenant, which is Jesus Christ and the spiritual rest of faith in him from works that can allegedly merit salvation. Jesus is our spiritual "Sabbath" (Matthew 11:28-30, Hebrews 4:9-11, Colossians 2:16-17). The Sabbath was a physical rest which was a type of the true "Sabbath".
It is talking about entering the spiritual rest in Jesus Christ that the believer has..which is a rest from alleged works of righteousness that merit salvation (which they cannot).
The book of Hebrews is about how the New Covenant is "better than" the Old Covenant, and about how Jesus is "better than" the angels and ANY of the characters of Israel's past, including the angels.
Here's a post I wrote on that.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html
Read Hebrews 3 and 4 and concentrate on that.
One of the problems you will have as an Armstrongite in understanding that, though, is that you do not believe in justification by faith alone. Your view of salvation is insufficient to understand the New Covenant. You will read the verses in light of your presuppositions in that regard, like the rabbit who runs through the same trail over and over again in a circle. Maybe God will enlighten your understanding, though, and you will be able to step outside of the rabbit trail HWA created for you and into the New Covenant.
I would suggest reading the book The God Who Justifies by James White if you don't know what I'm talking about concerning justification by faith alone.
By the way, before you distort my words, justification by faith alone teaches that obedience follows salvation as a fruit of salvation, but no man can do works to merit their salvation. This is unlike Armstrongism, which states that salvation is conditional upon keeping the Sabbath. In fact, I had to wait months to be baptized, even after I began "keeping the Sabbath"...in itself they contradicted their own position by claiming the Holy Spirit is received after baptism (required for obedience), yet requiring obedience prior to baptism by placing people in a probationary status evidenced by obedience to their doctrines.
Again, they are so full of contradictions it is ridiculous. No one can do works that satisfy God prior to regeneration (we won't touch that one because Armstrongites don't understand regeneration either..they don't believe you are "born again" until the resurrection when they become fully God like the Father and Son..otherwise they are a spiritual embryo subject to being aborted). They also ignored all the accounts in Acts where individuals were saved IN A MOMENT OF TIME and were subsequently baptized, not to mention the thief on the cross who did no works whatsoever to merit his salvation. By the way, in rejecting justification by faith alone, Armstrongites are more like Roman Catholics in their understanding of salvation, even though they despise Roman Catholicism.
Armstrongism collapses into a puddle on the floor when examined critically in light of Scripture.
Back to the subject of the thread...one thing I like about SDAs, while disagreeing with them on a number of their doctrines, is that most of them do not consider us unbelievers. In fact, almost every SDA I've met has been friendly, polite and non-condemning to me even though we have had strong discussions on these topics. gotime is a good example of that. I've asked him a LOT of strongly worded questions and he's never been rude to me. I will not outline the points that I strongly disagree with them upon in this post
It is talking about entering the spiritual rest in Jesus Christ that the believer has..which is a rest from alleged works of righteousness that merit salvation (which they cannot).
The book of Hebrews is about how the New Covenant is "better than" the Old Covenant, and about how Jesus is "better than" the angels and ANY of the characters of Israel's past, including the angels.
Here's a post I wrote on that.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115326-hebrews-4-9-real-sabbath-jesus.html
Read Hebrews 3 and 4 and concentrate on that.
One of the problems you will have as an Armstrongite in understanding that, though, is that you do not believe in justification by faith alone. Your view of salvation is insufficient to understand the New Covenant. You will read the verses in light of your presuppositions in that regard, like the rabbit who runs through the same trail over and over again in a circle. Maybe God will enlighten your understanding, though, and you will be able to step outside of the rabbit trail HWA created for you and into the New Covenant.
I would suggest reading the book The God Who Justifies by James White if you don't know what I'm talking about concerning justification by faith alone.
By the way, before you distort my words, justification by faith alone teaches that obedience follows salvation as a fruit of salvation, but no man can do works to merit their salvation. This is unlike Armstrongism, which states that salvation is conditional upon keeping the Sabbath. In fact, I had to wait months to be baptized, even after I began "keeping the Sabbath"...in itself they contradicted their own position by claiming the Holy Spirit is received after baptism (required for obedience), yet requiring obedience prior to baptism by placing people in a probationary status evidenced by obedience to their doctrines.
Again, they are so full of contradictions it is ridiculous. No one can do works that satisfy God prior to regeneration (we won't touch that one because Armstrongites don't understand regeneration either..they don't believe you are "born again" until the resurrection when they become fully God like the Father and Son..otherwise they are a spiritual embryo subject to being aborted). They also ignored all the accounts in Acts where individuals were saved IN A MOMENT OF TIME and were subsequently baptized, not to mention the thief on the cross who did no works whatsoever to merit his salvation. By the way, in rejecting justification by faith alone, Armstrongites are more like Roman Catholics in their understanding of salvation, even though they despise Roman Catholicism.
Armstrongism collapses into a puddle on the floor when examined critically in light of Scripture.
Back to the subject of the thread...one thing I like about SDAs, while disagreeing with them on a number of their doctrines, is that most of them do not consider us unbelievers. In fact, almost every SDA I've met has been friendly, polite and non-condemning to me even though we have had strong discussions on these topics. gotime is a good example of that. I've asked him a LOT of strongly worded questions and he's never been rude to me. I will not outline the points that I strongly disagree with them upon in this post
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Question for you Sparkman, are you a Greek scholar?
OK, let's get the context...
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
What day are we speaking of here if not the seventh day Sabbath and please enlighten us as actual understanding of the Greek for Sabbatismos in verse 9.
Thayer has this...
G4520
σαββατισμός
sabbatismos
Thayer Definition:
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine
Keeping the Sabbath is a picture of the rest coming in the Millennium.
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S
On my testimony concerning leaving Armstrongism, you made derogatory comments concerning the church's leadership which God used to lead us out of the false doctrines of Armstrongism (specifically, Joe Tkach and Mike Feazell). You don't need to quote Armstrong in order to establish that you believe his doctrines.
Do you believe you are going to be a part of the God Family in the resurrection, fully God just like God the Father and Jesus Christ? Do you believe that keeping the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws are conditions of salvation? Do you believe that the redeemed are not "born again" until the resurrection? Do you believe that the white Western Europeans are the physical descendants of ancient Israel? Do you believe that Roman Catholics and Sunday observing Protestants are "so-called believers" following a "false gospel" and have a "counterfeit Christianity" and that their pastors are "ministers of Satan"? Do you believe those who don't keep the Sabbath are under the Mark of the Beast? Do you believe that Herbert Armstrong was a prophet and an apostle in the same sense that Paul and the twelve were? Do you deny the Trinity doctrine, instead believing that God and Christ are two separate beings and that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force? Do you deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and the future bodily resurrection of believers?
If you deny the above points, and denounce Herbert Armstrong as a false apostle and a false prophet, I will retract my comments concerning Armstrongism. Easy enough.
Do you believe you are going to be a part of the God Family in the resurrection, fully God just like God the Father and Jesus Christ? Do you believe that keeping the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws are conditions of salvation? Do you believe that the redeemed are not "born again" until the resurrection? Do you believe that the white Western Europeans are the physical descendants of ancient Israel? Do you believe that Roman Catholics and Sunday observing Protestants are "so-called believers" following a "false gospel" and have a "counterfeit Christianity" and that their pastors are "ministers of Satan"? Do you believe those who don't keep the Sabbath are under the Mark of the Beast? Do you believe that Herbert Armstrong was a prophet and an apostle in the same sense that Paul and the twelve were? Do you deny the Trinity doctrine, instead believing that God and Christ are two separate beings and that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force? Do you deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and the future bodily resurrection of believers?
If you deny the above points, and denounce Herbert Armstrong as a false apostle and a false prophet, I will retract my comments concerning Armstrongism. Easy enough.
S
Selectively quoting one source to "prove" your point doesn't work, especially since the same source makes other comments.
In regards to me being a Greek scholar, no I am not and neither are you.
Let me ask you this..why does the author of Hebrews use sabbatismos instead of sabbaton in these verses? Why didn't he use sabbaton, which is clearly in reference to the physical Sabbath?
Again, read the entire book of Hebrews with the "better than" concept in mind. The "Sabbath" that the redeemed have is "better than" the physical rest that the Israelites had under the Mosaic Covenant.
Read these verses in addition, particularly the parts which are underlined:
Hebrews 4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[SUP][b][/SUP]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and his perfect sacrifice are the ones who enter into the spiritual rest. It is not the keeping of a physical rest, like the Mosaic Covenant Sabbath involved.
The Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant, which God had with ancient Israel (Exodus 31). Christians are not under that covenant. We are not parties to it. Why would a person keep a covenant sign for a covenant they are not under? It is as relevant as circumcision.
If you pluck a verse out of context, you can prove anything. You are ignoring the verse which follows directly behind Hebrews 4:9, which clearly states that this is a rest from our works. And, as I said, since Armstrongites believe works merit salvation, you are handicapped from understanding these verses.
Hebrews 4:9-10 [SUP]9 [/SUP]There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[SUP][e][/SUP] just as God did from his.
The basic question I have for you, though, is if this verse is talking about the weekly Sabbath, the physical rest, why is the unique word sabbatismos used? In addition, 1) why isn't Sabbath-breaking (or eating unclean meats) listed on the sin lists of the Gentiles, whereas every other base sin is listed? 2) if a slave with a Gentile master was saved, and the master wouldn't allow him to observe the Sabbath, would he still be saved if he did not observe the Sabbath? If so, why don't we read of such conflicts in the epistles? 3) why didn't Paul give specific instructions on how to keep the Sabbath in any of his epistles? 4) why does John call the festivals "Feasts of the Jews" if they are applicable to all? The festivals AND new moons AND food and drink offerings are linked to the weekly Sabbath by Colossians 2:16-17 so they stand or fall together.
In regards to me being a Greek scholar, no I am not and neither are you.
Let me ask you this..why does the author of Hebrews use sabbatismos instead of sabbaton in these verses? Why didn't he use sabbaton, which is clearly in reference to the physical Sabbath?
Again, read the entire book of Hebrews with the "better than" concept in mind. The "Sabbath" that the redeemed have is "better than" the physical rest that the Israelites had under the Mosaic Covenant.
Read these verses in addition, particularly the parts which are underlined:
Hebrews 4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[SUP][b][/SUP]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and his perfect sacrifice are the ones who enter into the spiritual rest. It is not the keeping of a physical rest, like the Mosaic Covenant Sabbath involved.
The Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant, which God had with ancient Israel (Exodus 31). Christians are not under that covenant. We are not parties to it. Why would a person keep a covenant sign for a covenant they are not under? It is as relevant as circumcision.
If you pluck a verse out of context, you can prove anything. You are ignoring the verse which follows directly behind Hebrews 4:9, which clearly states that this is a rest from our works. And, as I said, since Armstrongites believe works merit salvation, you are handicapped from understanding these verses.
Hebrews 4:9-10 [SUP]9 [/SUP]There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[SUP][e][/SUP] just as God did from his.
The basic question I have for you, though, is if this verse is talking about the weekly Sabbath, the physical rest, why is the unique word sabbatismos used? In addition, 1) why isn't Sabbath-breaking (or eating unclean meats) listed on the sin lists of the Gentiles, whereas every other base sin is listed? 2) if a slave with a Gentile master was saved, and the master wouldn't allow him to observe the Sabbath, would he still be saved if he did not observe the Sabbath? If so, why don't we read of such conflicts in the epistles? 3) why didn't Paul give specific instructions on how to keep the Sabbath in any of his epistles? 4) why does John call the festivals "Feasts of the Jews" if they are applicable to all? The festivals AND new moons AND food and drink offerings are linked to the weekly Sabbath by Colossians 2:16-17 so they stand or fall together.
S
By the way, john832...I would challenge you to a debate on the topics associated with Armstrongism on a separate thread if you'd be interested. I can outline the deviances from evangelical Christianity on this thread and we can debate each topic in order. I won't accept cut and paste responses from Armstrongite websites, though.
Nor will I discuss extra-biblical assertions such as historical arguments (history is easily distorted) or discuss any of the British Israelism stuff.
Nor will I discuss extra-biblical assertions such as historical arguments (history is easily distorted) or discuss any of the British Israelism stuff.
So, You are a Tkachite! You followed Tkach out of the truth into error.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
What do you believe here? Do you believe that you will NOT be like Him at the resurrection?
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
1Jn 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
2Jn 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Which of the above plain scriptures do you NOT believe?
1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
You are like the wind? No one can see you? They can only see the results of you being there? If you truly believe you are invisible and like the wind, perhaps you should seek some counseling.
Take the hatpin test to see if you are flesh, then compare that to...
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
If you are flesh and blood (and I surely hope that you recognize that you are), you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. We must be changed to spirit at the resurrection...
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Yes, some of them are of the tribes of Israel who migrated there. Where do you think they came from?
You are familiar with the Quarto-Decimani controversy and you do know that a considerable portion of the church kept the Sabbath until the Nicene Counsel in AD325? And it goes on and on. After all, we are admonished...
Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
And you don't believe Paul's warning...
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
And when Christ said...
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Did He really mean churches? And did He mean any and all paths lead to the Kingdom?
Not at the present time. I do believe that there is a mark, a sign that denotes those who are of God...
Exo 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
Absolutely not. Herbert Armstrong was not a prophet and not an apostle...
1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
A little bit of a stretch here but it appears that an apostle must have seen Christ and been taught by Him face to face.
Yes I do. I am not a Trinitarian and if you would look into this doctrine, you would find it was not extant in the early church for several centuries.
Absolutely not. When have I ever said that? Here is what I believe...
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Uh, just so we are on even ground here, your hero, Joe Tkach use to call Herbert Armstrong an apostle. I do not. Herbert Armstrong was just a man, he did not walk on water and was not perfect. He was a human being just like the rest of us.
By the way, again, I ask, where have I ever quoted Herbert Armstrong?
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
What do you believe here? Do you believe that you will NOT be like Him at the resurrection?
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
1Jn 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
2Jn 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Which of the above plain scriptures do you NOT believe?
1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
You are like the wind? No one can see you? They can only see the results of you being there? If you truly believe you are invisible and like the wind, perhaps you should seek some counseling.
Take the hatpin test to see if you are flesh, then compare that to...
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
If you are flesh and blood (and I surely hope that you recognize that you are), you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. We must be changed to spirit at the resurrection...
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Yes, some of them are of the tribes of Israel who migrated there. Where do you think they came from?
You are familiar with the Quarto-Decimani controversy and you do know that a considerable portion of the church kept the Sabbath until the Nicene Counsel in AD325? And it goes on and on. After all, we are admonished...
Jud 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
And you don't believe Paul's warning...
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
And when Christ said...
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Did He really mean churches? And did He mean any and all paths lead to the Kingdom?
Not at the present time. I do believe that there is a mark, a sign that denotes those who are of God...
Exo 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
Absolutely not. Herbert Armstrong was not a prophet and not an apostle...
1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
A little bit of a stretch here but it appears that an apostle must have seen Christ and been taught by Him face to face.
Yes I do. I am not a Trinitarian and if you would look into this doctrine, you would find it was not extant in the early church for several centuries.
Absolutely not. When have I ever said that? Here is what I believe...
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Uh, just so we are on even ground here, your hero, Joe Tkach use to call Herbert Armstrong an apostle. I do not. Herbert Armstrong was just a man, he did not walk on water and was not perfect. He was a human being just like the rest of us.
By the way, again, I ask, where have I ever quoted Herbert Armstrong?
S
Evangelical teachings are based on Scripture..do you understand what evangelical means? Evangel simply means the gospel.
Evangelicals hold that the word of God is the foundation for matters of living and doctrine. They also hold that justification is by faith alone, and that faith plus works doesn't justify the sinner. There's no way that an unregenerate sinner can produce works meriting salvation anyways.
Evangelicals hold that the word of God is the foundation for matters of living and doctrine. They also hold that justification is by faith alone, and that faith plus works doesn't justify the sinner. There's no way that an unregenerate sinner can produce works meriting salvation anyways.
S
Of course, in the sense that I will have a resurrection body like Christ has.
Christ has two natures, though. He is both God and man. He has a resurrection body that the disciples touched. He is a glorified man.
I will be a glorified man as well. With a physical body which has been changed in composition so that it is incorruptible.
But, I will NEVER be God and it's a blasphemous claim to state such a thing. God by nature is uncreated, unique, and worthy of worship.
The whole God Family doctrine is a lying blasphemy that is similar to Satan's claim that he would become like God. And, Armstrong was similarly blasphemous in making such a claim.
Mankind was created in the image of God, to reflect God's character like a mirror reflects light. Nowhere is it taught that mankind is the actual offspring of God, like a human child is the offspring of humans.
Humans are adopted into the family of God. They are not literally going to be God in the sense of having his omnipotence and omniscience.
Christ has two natures, though. He is both God and man. He has a resurrection body that the disciples touched. He is a glorified man.
I will be a glorified man as well. With a physical body which has been changed in composition so that it is incorruptible.
But, I will NEVER be God and it's a blasphemous claim to state such a thing. God by nature is uncreated, unique, and worthy of worship.
The whole God Family doctrine is a lying blasphemy that is similar to Satan's claim that he would become like God. And, Armstrong was similarly blasphemous in making such a claim.
Mankind was created in the image of God, to reflect God's character like a mirror reflects light. Nowhere is it taught that mankind is the actual offspring of God, like a human child is the offspring of humans.
Humans are adopted into the family of God. They are not literally going to be God in the sense of having his omnipotence and omniscience.
No He is not, He is God. He was God, is God and will be God. That glorified man teaching sounds much like Mormonism to me.
Scripture says this...
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
Your "Evangelical Teachings" are showing.
Hmmm, and yet God says His purpose for creating man is...
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
If we are to be made in the IMAGE and LIKENESS of God, what are we then? Different than God?
Christ said this...
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
and the Greek for Gods is...
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
If I were you, I would be careful about the blasphemous statements claim.
Sometimes you make it too easy...
Luk 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Says here that Adam was the son of God.
Scripture says this...
1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
Your "Evangelical Teachings" are showing.
Hmmm, and yet God says His purpose for creating man is...
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
If we are to be made in the IMAGE and LIKENESS of God, what are we then? Different than God?
Christ said this...
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
and the Greek for Gods is...
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
If I were you, I would be careful about the blasphemous statements claim.
Sometimes you make it too easy...
Luk 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Says here that Adam was the son of God.
S
You have no idea how bad this God Family doctrine sounds to ordinary Christians here.
To claim that you are going to be God in the same sense that God the Father and Jesus Christ are God is the epitome of pride and false doctrine.
I apologize to the SDAs for bringing up this conversation on this thread. I hope no one associates you guys with Armstrongites as a result.
To claim that you are going to be God in the same sense that God the Father and Jesus Christ are God is the epitome of pride and false doctrine.
I apologize to the SDAs for bringing up this conversation on this thread. I hope no one associates you guys with Armstrongites as a result.
S
I'm not going to argue with you on this..it's too time consuming.
If individuals on this forum get fooled by Armstrongism, shame on them.
Information is easily available online regarding his false teachings. In addition, any group claiming to become God in the resurrection in the same sense as God the Father and Jesus Christ, and to be the "true church" calling everyone else "so-called Christians" would be considered cultic.
If individuals on this forum get fooled by Armstrongism, shame on them.
Information is easily available online regarding his false teachings. In addition, any group claiming to become God in the resurrection in the same sense as God the Father and Jesus Christ, and to be the "true church" calling everyone else "so-called Christians" would be considered cultic.
Hi Guys, I don't really want to weigh in on this conversation but rather make one point that some of you may or may not be aware of.
While doing word searches can be helpful in Bible study it is more important to take context. The reason this is so is because context can make a word take on different meanings.
It is not a case of same word same meaning even if it most often is used in that sense, Thus the need for context. we have the same thing in the English language. Words can be used to mean different things in different contexts and thus the context reveals the intended use of the word.
When it comes the words for Sabbath There are multiple uses available in the bible that all use the same word but do not refer to the same event or thing or circumstance. This is because there are multiple applications of that same word in the system Given by God to Moses. and that is because while different in application they also contain links also.
I am not directing this at anyone in particular, just putting it out there, may help may not.
Blessings.
While doing word searches can be helpful in Bible study it is more important to take context. The reason this is so is because context can make a word take on different meanings.
It is not a case of same word same meaning even if it most often is used in that sense, Thus the need for context. we have the same thing in the English language. Words can be used to mean different things in different contexts and thus the context reveals the intended use of the word.
When it comes the words for Sabbath There are multiple uses available in the bible that all use the same word but do not refer to the same event or thing or circumstance. This is because there are multiple applications of that same word in the system Given by God to Moses. and that is because while different in application they also contain links also.
I am not directing this at anyone in particular, just putting it out there, may help may not.
Blessings.