Losing Salvation

[Magenta]

I do believe that she believes that baptism of the spirit happens in the water. The witness of scripture and early church fathers do seem to strongly support this.

The witness of Scripture is that John the Baptist baptized with water but told of One to come Who would baptize with the Holy Spirit of God (fire, not water). All of Scripture points to Jesus Christ as the One Who Spiritually regenerates the lost and reconciles us back to God.

 

[MsSuzanna]

I do believe that she believes that baptism of the spirit happens in the water. The witness of scripture and early church fathers do seem to strongly support this.

The heresy you purport originated with the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.

 

[MsSuzanna]

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

That is referring to those who are not saved in the first place or those that cling to works to save them

 

[MsSuzanna]

run like " hell"
oook

 

[iwant2serve]

I believe we must take all accounts into view not just the ones that fit our personal belief. There are scriptures that point to being seal until the day of redemption, no one can pluck you out of His hand and eternal salvation. There are also scriptures that point to being faithful until the end, not turning back, and partaking in the Holy Spirit and walking away.

I have come to a conclusion that this works two ways.
1. God will keep you if you make the decision to continue until the end.
2. We cannot remove our responsibility and place it all on God.

If God gave us something that we must do then we cannot in return say its up to God. Yes it is God who keeps us and gives us the power to do anything he tells us to do. Yet he will not remove our choice to obey him or not and at any time we can choose one way or the other. From what I have noticed from this argument many times is that the ones who stand totally for OSAS do not acknowledge the warning scriptures about walking away and not returning.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I disagree with your point. I was saved before I got baptized and I was baptized because I was saved in obedience to Christ.
I think this is very important because baptism should be done by all who are believers but they were saved by the Power of the gospel as stated in Rom 1:16.

It's like pulling teeth to get people to say this...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The heresy you purport originated with the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.

No, Justin Martyr wrote just a few decades after the apostle John died that regeneration occurred in water baptism. His writing was to pagan Romans to explain the beliefs and practices of all the churches.

 

[Grace777x70]

Nope,

but thank you,

the point is as you stated it is christians who are doing the grieving . And one WHO has the Holy Spirit is the only one who can do the grieving. The Old testament the Spirit of god would depart Samson read about him. in the New testament The Holy Spirit is in the Believer at the time of salvation John 20:22 . when did the disciples get baptized in water ? was it before the Crucifixion? by John? or after Jesus rose again? if it was after please show me where in the scriptures.

I agree with you....Saul's situation was much different then ours. The Holy Spirit stays with us Christians no matter what we do. He was in the Corinthians when they were going to temple prostitutes for sex as Paul talks about. I would say that behavior grieved Him too.

We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. I would say the disciples got water baptized by John before Jesus' death and resurrection but it is not being baptized into the body of Christ.

According to some people that say believers only receive the Holy Spirit and have remission of sins when you get water baptized - they will have a hard time reconciling the fact that the disciples were not water baptized after they received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.

We don't get water baptized then receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 10 clearly shows the opposite.

But I'm not really sure what you are asking me. Perhaps I mis-read what you are asking me?

 

[MsSuzanna]

Grace is the gift of God, BUT He only gives that gift to those who obey Him.

Why do we obey him? Isnt the author and finisher of my faith God?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The witness of Scripture is that John the Baptist baptized with water but told of One to come Who would baptize with the Holy Spirit of God (fire, not water). All of Scripture points to Jesus Christ as the One Who Spiritually regenerates the lost and reconciles us back to God.

But Jesus also baptized with water (via proxy) and commanded all disciples to do so. I don't know of anyone here who disagrees that Christ is the one who spiritually regenerates. The only issue, it seems to me, is when this happens.

 

[Magenta]

No, Justin Martyr wrote just a few decades after the apostle John died that regeneration occurred in water baptism. His writing was to pagan Romans to explain the beliefs and practices of all the churches.

John wrote and warned of heresies in the first century church.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why do we obey him? Isnt the author and finisher of my faith God?

Sounds like the gospel of sock-puppet salvation.

 

[MsSuzanna]

You teach sins are washed in the waters of baptism. That is damnable heresy!

haha yeah! Its no wonder he spoke haughtily to a person who needs some teaching. Its THAT spirit!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

John wrote and warned of heresies in the first century church.

Why don't your read what he wrote about the Christian faith to dertemine if he was a heretic instead of sowing doubt about something you don't know anything about.

 

[dcontroversal]

IMPOSSIBLE...

a) salvation stands in the perfect faith, sacrifice and mediatorship of Jesus Christ before the Father...It is Finished is a legal term and states paid in full..

b) Salvation and verb tense all state and point to an eternal position...a present continuing result from a past completed action...was saved when I believed, I am saved right now and I am continuing to be saved into the future...

c) It is the spirit that has been born again by GOD'S SEED THAT REMAINS IN HIM....THE SPIRIT is eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ...it does NOT SIN, CANNOT SIN AND WILL NOT SIN BECAUSE IT IS BORN OF God's Spirit...it is housed temporarily in a fallen, dead body of sin that is corrupt, dead and can do nothing but sin....There is not a JUST MAN UPON THE EARTH THAT DOES GOOD AND SINS NOT...The SPIRIT IS INDEED WILLING, BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK!

d) We are in the Father,s hand, Christ's hand and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.....which is the Earnest of our ETERNAL SALVATION.......!

A CHILD BY BIRTH will remain a child by birth regardless of what happens or does not happen...a saved child who lives rebellious will lose their reward, wander in the wilderness and pay the price for rebellion, but will never lose SONSHIP!

 

[Magenta]

But Jesus also baptized with water (via proxy) and commanded all disciples to do so. I don't know of anyone here who disagrees that Christ is the one who spiritually regenerates. The only issue, it seems to me, is when this happens.

I thought the issue is whether water baptism saves and is required for salvation. When regeneration happens seems to be secondary, though I would think that would be when we repented and believed. Certainly that happens apart from water baptism. I am sorry that the John 3:16 thread from yesterday was deleted. I had some good resources in there I will have to search them out again; I remember one post I made to you that spoke of the times of these things happening to the apostles apart from water baptism, and separately (rebirth and regeneration).

 

[BeyondET]

I know.....I was just being facetious. ...

I can relate to that fair enough

 

[MsSuzanna]

I believe we must take all accounts into view not just the ones that fit our personal belief. There are scriptures that point to being seal until the day of redemption, no one can pluck you out of His hand and eternal salvation. There are also scriptures that point to being faithful until the end, not turning back, and partaking in the Holy Spirit and walking away.

I have come to a conclusion that this works two ways.
1. God will keep you if you make the decision to continue until the end.
2. We cannot remove our responsibility and place it all on God.

If God gave us something that we must do then we cannot in return say its up to God. Yes it is God who keeps us and gives us the power to do anything he tells us to do. Yet he will not remove our choice to obey him or not and at any time we can choose one way or the other. From what I have noticed from this argument many times is that the ones who stand totally for OSAS do not acknowledge the warning scriptures about walking away and not returning.

1. God will keep you if you make the decision to continue until the end.
2. We cannot remove our responsibility and place it all on God.

Why do we feel that responsibility? Who does the renewing of the mind? God.
All it takes is faith to continue resting in Gods MOLDING ME. I am not the potter but I am the clay.
You cannot please the Lord w/o faith.

I am saved by grace alone and faith alone. This produces obedience out of the indwelling spirit sanctifying me

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

John wrote and warned of heresies in the first century church.

btw, Justin Martyr wrote regarding the practices of all the churches several decades after the apostle John died. I very much doubt that all of the churches were involved in heretical practices so close to the apostolic era.

 

[notuptome]

your context of contend is not ( IMHO) how I see the Gospel to be presented as the only means, Rom 1:16, John 3:16

Jude was writing about defending the gospel against gnostics, Judaism and other works based teachings of salvation. If you allow someone to contend that grace is metered out through mans works like water baptism or keeping of ordinaces then you allow a false gospel to prosper.

The bible is doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger