-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
My issue isn't with you ben, like I have said a few times I see good word in you. I'm not at all opposed to Grace. Just the many misteachings of Grace. Grace needs to be looked at from Jesus perspective is my point here. to know Jesus perspective is to accept what He left of Himself for us to Know, its found in matt, mark, luke, and John. That's really kind of what I'm saying. Jesus does infact give several warnings to His followers based on what WE do. to ignore Gods word because we don't want to imagine a God who loves us and wont be true to His words of punishment, just as He is to His blesings, is dangerous. anything that deviates from the teachings of Jesus, is a deviation from the word of God. there is no compromise in my heart regarding Jesus own words. I know Who Jesus is and was when He walked the earth, and I take His word as the word of God. in my opinion, every writer in the nt would hold the same stance on the gospel, if a doctrine they were teaching deviated from Jesus teachings, they woulod change their thinking, to what He said is correct. or if you prefer the language, they would let His word change their thinking. either way, they would not hold to a belief that Jesus contradicts clearly.
That's Just what I will never cave on, to me, its not penetrable. Jesus is the measure, the words that matter most, which all others are tested against is Jesus. He is the judge and Lord. and He is the one who says obey my commands. not only in one place, but again several times he points out " you must do these things" its Just Jesus word. That needs to be the test against doctrine. there is no other baseline, paul understood this, many of His students do not
J
absolutely. may I ask what would be the result If a person refused to accept Jesus words as the words of God? or if a person thought I'm saved, there is never any punishment for mi said I believe in Jesus ! yet, they live for themselves and have no desire to even know him? is that salvation for the person? or is there a point we need to surrender our Lives to Jesus and let Him teach us righteousness? His teachings are everything we are supposed to be. they are agape Love, true Love. that's our doctrine, to be Just Like Jesus taught us to be. perfect? naw He is tho, he even provides grace for forgiveness depending on the grace for forgiveness that we offer. "By the measure you use, it will be measured to you" another principle He taught. the condition, is based upon How we treat others. so there is a condition according to Jesus words. the word of God. the highest responsibility is in Christ.
J
that's a great one, I see" make every effort" that's the issue with some of the doctrine as if we don't do anything in response to Jesus sacrifice for us, to purchase us, He owns us. Master Jesus. slaves to righteousness. that is our attitude in Christ, not just wait and one day ill obey, but I cant put effort out or ive transgressed the gog. that's the danger of distorting Grace, Grace gets distorted ONLY when Jesus words are not the Lords authority. remember what He said " The Father has given me all authority in heaven and on earth"......go make disciples, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" . the idea that Grace means we do nothing but believe, is Just not what Jesus says. Gotta hold Jesus up higher in our thinking than Just a man who died for us, He is ALSO and just as important, The Lord and master of the universe. so His words should carry the most weight in any Christian heart. or, my beloief is somethings corrupt in our thinking
J
I certainly don't consider speaking the truth of Jesus, beating anyone. if Jesus words are an offense to someone , I will speak louder so that someone will hear that they are HIS words I'm pointing them to, that's salvation. grace offers salvation, a free gift, up to us whether to accept it. accepting it is to offer our lives in return. we stumble n fall, He is there for the one following His word......repentance and forgiveness. one of His teachings. with the knowledge of paul some of them have, they need to see Jesus and add 1+1. freedom is a bond to Christ
Did Jesus teach the apostle Paul? Then what do you have to say about this?
Ephesians 4:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Colossians 3:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Do you notice that you already have Christ's forgiveness according to these verses? It seems you either have a contradiction at hand (between Jesus and Jesus' apostle) or you aren't rightly dividing the Bible. Either way the doctrine you're purporting is erroneous for a new covenant believer and ignores what Jesus accomplished at the cross (forgiveness of sins).
Ephesians 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
I will say the same to you, "Yeah, what else you got?"
Ephesians 4:32 King James Version (KJV)
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Colossians 3:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Do you notice that you already have Christ's forgiveness according to these verses? It seems you either have a contradiction at hand (between Jesus and Jesus' apostle) or you aren't rightly dividing the Bible. Either way the doctrine you're purporting is erroneous for a new covenant believer and ignores what Jesus accomplished at the cross (forgiveness of sins).
Ephesians 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
I will say the same to you, "Yeah, what else you got?"
J
Id say that pointing Christians to the gospel is Love, and already stated several times have nothing against you folk. The truth is the truth. listen ben, weve all said plenty I suppose. grace is wonderful, to know Grace add the truth. because Jesus came with not only grace, but truth. they go together. I challenge you and anyone else to research the earliest articles of the faith and see what the doctrine looks like. the gog, as it is taught today widely accepted, was never a doctrine in the church until some years back. Do you think the early church would have been holding to the gospel? and that the world today understand better than the men who walked with Him and were beheaded after His ascention? look into the early persecutions by rome beginning in 67 ad if you want to see what faith really is. it is an interesting and helpful study, will touch your heart.
I suppose if I was to agree with your scriptures, no one could ever have an opposing thought, or teach anyone anything. I never was angry, actually the longer this went on, the holy spirit was jumpin in my soul
got nothin but Love for you, that's why its okay if I'm disliked, Gods word is able to reach people, and id rather NOT have people saying anything good of me, if its because I'm saying " go learn and follow Jesus words" He teaches the stuff that the gog doesn't work with. it only opens a door to the truth.so in all truth, no hard feelings. cant ever apologize though for pointing to Jesus words. I think if anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, they should study the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus. that's pretty solid backup and I already know what they will find if they will look at it as Jesus words to them. that study on the early persecutions is interesting. Thanks for hangin in so long, wish there were more agreement, But all is well
J
Id say that pointing Christians to the gospel is Love, and already stated several times have nothing against you folk. The truth is the truth. listen ben, weve all said plenty I suppose. grace is wonderful, to know Grace add the truth. because Jesus came with not only grace, but truth. they go together. I challenge you and anyone else to research the earliest articles of the faith and see what the doctrine looks like. the gog, as it is taught today widely accepted, was never a doctrine in the church until some years back. Do you think the early church would have been holding to the gospel? and that the world today understand better than the men who walked with Him and were beheaded after His ascention? look into the early persecutions by rome beginning in 67 ad if you want to see what faith really is. it is an interesting and helpful study, will touch your heart.
I suppose if I was to agree with your scriptures, no one could ever have an opposing thought, or teach anyone anything. I never was angry, actually the longer this went on, the holy spirit was jumpin in my soul got nothin but Love for you, that's why its okay if I'm disliked, Gods word is able to reach people, and id rather NOT have people saying anything good of me, if its because I'm saying " go learn and follow Jesus words" He teaches the stuff that the gog doesn't work with. it only opens a door to the truth.
so in all truth, no hard feelings. cant ever apologize though for pointing to Jesus words. I think if anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, they should study the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus. that's pretty solid backup and I already know what they will find if they will look at it as Jesus words to them. that study on the early persecutions is interesting. Thanks for hangin in so long, wish there were more agreement, But all is well
I suppose if I was to agree with your scriptures, no one could ever have an opposing thought, or teach anyone anything. I never was angry, actually the longer this went on, the holy spirit was jumpin in my soul
got nothin but Love for you, that's why its okay if I'm disliked, Gods word is able to reach people, and id rather NOT have people saying anything good of me, if its because I'm saying " go learn and follow Jesus words" He teaches the stuff that the gog doesn't work with. it only opens a door to the truth.so in all truth, no hard feelings. cant ever apologize though for pointing to Jesus words. I think if anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, they should study the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus. that's pretty solid backup and I already know what they will find if they will look at it as Jesus words to them. that study on the early persecutions is interesting. Thanks for hangin in so long, wish there were more agreement, But all is well
also ben if you do look into that study, consider Jesus foretelling it on the mount of olives, and take a look in the first parts of revelation, knowing that John was the only disciple not martyrd only because He was put into a vat of boiling oil, and miraculously escaped. they then were afraid to kill Him so they exiled Him to patomos, where He received the revelation of Jesus Christ
Thank you for bringing up this scripture as this is a classic example of an obscure scripture that seems to contradict the volume of clear multiple scriptures on forgiveness of sins which is the gospel message.
If you look at the scripture I see where Peter said "If perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee" IS this consistent with the multiple scriptures that say that God will forgive sins? There is no question at all that God will forgive all sins when people come to Him?
This looks like to me that Peter was angry at Simon for thinking that he could buy the ability to lay hands on people so that they could receive the Holy Spirit. This is NOT a doctrinal passage. God does forgive sins so there is no question about "If perhaps" being correct in light of the finished work of Christ.
We should never let an obscure scripture rob us of the multiple clear scriptures that say the complete opposite of what an obscure scripture is saying. If an obscure scripture contradicts the abundance of clear scriptures that say something different - then we are interpreting that scripture incorrectly and we need to ask the Holy Spirit to give us understanding in that area.
Now compare the above scripture that says "If perhaps God will forgive you" to the clear abundant scriptures from both Paul and John below.
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did or achieved.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
In the above scripture the forgiveness of our sins measures the wealth of God's riches in grace. God is very wealthy.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your complete forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
Last edited:
J
honestly, your words about obscure scripture totally rings true to me,........gotta follow Jesus, God bless
how about the parable of the unforgiving debtor? whats the lesson there? or is that obscure scripture? let me break down the parable...matthew 18:22-35. the man owes a great amount (our sins) to the Lord, the Lord is going to sell His wife and children because the man cant pay Him his debt. The man begs for more time, the master takes compassion on Him and shows mercy forgives the entire debt. (shouldn't be a disagreement yet) so the man goes out and sees another who owes Him money, he attacks Him and the man begs forgiveness of the debt.......He ( tha man who was forgiven the great debt) takes no mercy on the one who owes Him......( okay, heres where it becomes what you aren't seeing) The Lord hears what the man did to the other, not forgiving but having him thrown in jail, the Lord becomes FURIOUS with him, and calls Him back into His chambers.......what does The Lord say and do to the man who He forgave earlier? and WHY does the Lord do this?......He was thrown into prison to be tortured....the final verse ? "This is How my heavenly Father will treat EACH of you UNLESS you forgive your brother from your heart."
can you call this obscure? is it a lone verse? or a lesson taught by Jesus Christ the Lord? you have to see that there is a condition after the man was forgiven, that the Lord still punished His wrong after He was forgiven right? that's why the gog as it is taught disagrees with Jesus. not only this one lesson but through the entire gospel is the same things. God forgave us by Grace made us new, But that Grace when accepted, means we are obligated now, to do whats been done for us.
if this is obscure, how bout matthew 6:14-15 " if you forgive men their sins, your father will forgive yours, if you do not, your father will not forgive yours."
obscure still? there are far more shall I continue on? believe me I get the sentence about keeping away from obscure scripture that disagrees with the clear truth of Christ, that is not refutable. Grace is NOT free of obligation, if we do not Live as we are taught to Live, we are only awaiting being called back into an angry Judges chambers. Grace without truth is of no effect to anyone, non conditional was Grace, truth is the greatest bond with the highest responsibility of how we act
I dont have a problem with that scripture for what it says (for myself) I dont find that one to be obscure but rather straight forward and other insights can be drawn from it just the same, but what I was asking HRFTD us how it works in this other doctrine.
The reason I asked him is because I can actually read and understand him better but he also didnt appear to know how that might be answered, and had more of a wait and see about it but I cant say that it made things any more clearer, and thats okay I wasnt expecting it to be.
Thanks for giving that a shot, might be because I dont tune into these TV evangelists and dig into their doctrines, I just bump into various ideas or teachings that I never heard before that might go over with some and not so much with others.
The reason I asked him is because I can actually read and understand him better but he also didnt appear to know how that might be answered, and had more of a wait and see about it but I cant say that it made things any more clearer, and thats okay I wasnt expecting it to be.
Thanks for giving that a shot, might be because I dont tune into these TV evangelists and dig into their doctrines, I just bump into various ideas or teachings that I never heard before that might go over with some and not so much with others.
J
more examples of what I'm saying ? give and iot will be goiven to you.....conditional. blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy...conditional. its really repetitive and I cant understand why no one can accept Jesus words.......its all through the 4 gospel accounts of His teachings and life, sorry, but its the truth.
Id say that pointing Christians to the gospel is Love, and already stated several times have nothing against you folk. The truth is the truth. listen ben, weve all said plenty I suppose. grace is wonderful, to know Grace add the truth. because Jesus came with not only grace, but truth. they go together. I challenge you and anyone else to research the earliest articles of the faith and see what the doctrine looks like. the gog, as it is taught today widely accepted, was never a doctrine in the church until some years back. Do you think the early church would have been holding to the gospel? and that the world today understand better than the men who walked with Him and were beheaded after His ascention? look into the early persecutions by rome beginning in 67 ad if you want to see what faith really is. it is an interesting and helpful study, will touch your heart.
I suppose if I was to agree with your scriptures, no one could ever have an opposing thought, or teach anyone anything. I never was angry, actually the longer this went on, the holy spirit was jumpin in my soul got nothin but Love for you, that's why its okay if I'm disliked, Gods word is able to reach people, and id rather NOT have people saying anything good of me, if its because I'm saying " go learn and follow Jesus words" He teaches the stuff that the gog doesn't work with. it only opens a door to the truth.
so in all truth, no hard feelings. cant ever apologize though for pointing to Jesus words. I think if anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, they should study the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus. that's pretty solid backup and I already know what they will find if they will look at it as Jesus words to them. that study on the early persecutions is interesting. Thanks for hangin in so long, wish there were more agreement, But all is well
I suppose if I was to agree with your scriptures, no one could ever have an opposing thought, or teach anyone anything. I never was angry, actually the longer this went on, the holy spirit was jumpin in my soul
got nothin but Love for you, that's why its okay if I'm disliked, Gods word is able to reach people, and id rather NOT have people saying anything good of me, if its because I'm saying " go learn and follow Jesus words" He teaches the stuff that the gog doesn't work with. it only opens a door to the truth.so in all truth, no hard feelings. cant ever apologize though for pointing to Jesus words. I think if anyone wants to prove me wrong or whatever, they should study the 4 gospel accounts of Jesus. that's pretty solid backup and I already know what they will find if they will look at it as Jesus words to them. that study on the early persecutions is interesting. Thanks for hangin in so long, wish there were more agreement, But all is well
I don't hold anything against you, we are having for the most part a civil discussion. I am just inquiring, how do you reconcile the verses I presented to you with the ones you presented out of Jesus' own mouth? I am referring to the verses on forgiveness. You say we must forgive or else God wont forgive us (as Jesus said) but I have now shown you verses that contradict that and says to forgive from the place of forgiveness (having experienced forgiveness through Jesus Christ by God).
Do you think, just maybe, some of the things Jesus said only applied at a certain time and to a certain people under a certain covenant? Do you think its possible that Jesus dying at the cross changed things, especially in terms of covenant and how we relate to God? I am not saying disregard the words of Jesus our Lord, they still hold significance. That He emphasized forgiveness is important. Yet, consider, our forgiveness is not found in our ability to forgive others, but in God's righteous judgment through Christ, who has justified us by His sacrifice.
You see, all I am proposing is that we rightly divide the word through the lens of the cross of Jesus Christ. He did not die in vain and His death and resurrection changed how we relate to God in terms of sin, repentance, and so many other things. Nor am I saying you are opposed to such, I am just saying consider what I am presenting. It isn't false and no one is saying to ignore the gems of wisdom Jesus has left us through the records of His life in the four gospel accounts.
Hi Jason,
It would take too long to write all this out so I'm going to give out websites that address the scriptures you have asked about. Whether you read them or not is your decision but all those questions do not conflict with the gospel of the grace of Christ in the light of Jesus' finished work after the cross.
It is very possible they may conflict with what you believe Jesus is saying and to whom He is saying it to and for what purpose.
Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.
This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus. Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.
Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here is a website that talks about Matt 6 which is about forgiveness. I always like to use this website as it tackles obscure scriptures which may seem to conflict with clear scriptures in the light of the finished work of Christ and people can ask questions at the bottom of the articles and I usually learn a lot from that too.
https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/19/where-does-forgiveness-come-from-and-why-does-it-matter/
https://escapetoreality.org/2015/08/06/forgiveness-matthew-6v14-15/
We can always agree to disagree too on subjects. We both love the Lord passionately and desire to obey Him in all things as the Holy Spirit teaches us new things.
Anyway - I'm going to bed so have a great night and the rest of the weekend! God bless you...don't forget about your mom tomorrow!...
It would take too long to write all this out so I'm going to give out websites that address the scriptures you have asked about. Whether you read them or not is your decision but all those questions do not conflict with the gospel of the grace of Christ in the light of Jesus' finished work after the cross.
It is very possible they may conflict with what you believe Jesus is saying and to whom He is saying it to and for what purpose.
Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.
This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus. Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.
Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here is a website that talks about Matt 6 which is about forgiveness. I always like to use this website as it tackles obscure scriptures which may seem to conflict with clear scriptures in the light of the finished work of Christ and people can ask questions at the bottom of the articles and I usually learn a lot from that too.
https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/19/where-does-forgiveness-come-from-and-why-does-it-matter/
https://escapetoreality.org/2015/08/06/forgiveness-matthew-6v14-15/
We can always agree to disagree too on subjects. We both love the Lord passionately and desire to obey Him in all things as the Holy Spirit teaches us new things.
Anyway - I'm going to bed so have a great night and the rest of the weekend! God bless you...don't forget about your mom tomorrow!...
You are welcome for my shot at reconciling that obscure scripture with the volume of multiple clear scripture on forgiveness of sins that the believer already has in Christ.
But every one is free to believe what ever they want too...
I have no idea what TV preachers have to do with the mountainous amount of clear scriptures about the forgiveness of sins that we have in Christ but I don't watch TV myself.
Anyways..thanks again for bringing that scripture to our attention. It was a great example. I actually have some other ideas about it too but maybe that can be for another time.
Have a great night and weekend and if you are a mom - happy mother's day! Bless you and your family!
But every one is free to believe what ever they want too...
I have no idea what TV preachers have to do with the mountainous amount of clear scriptures about the forgiveness of sins that we have in Christ but I don't watch TV myself.
Anyways..thanks again for bringing that scripture to our attention. It was a great example. I actually have some other ideas about it too but maybe that can be for another time.
Have a great night and weekend and if you are a mom - happy mother's day! Bless you and your family!
J
Honestly ben, no hard feelings either. to my own knowledge there hasn't been name calling ect. I'm against the gog as it is popularly taught. This is what you guys I guess aren't getting. If there is a reconciliation to be made, it is always TO Jesus words. you guys are seeing like the guys who was forgiven the great debt, you guys are like Him, your headed out in Joy, you are free and clear of a debt you could not pay, God forgave who you were. That's great and true and that's Grace. do you really think Jesus teachings are Not the foundation of all Christianity? when He is the gospel? paul is saying God forgave us all our sins......Jesus said the same thing. so there is an agreement there. God forgave us all our sins.
to ask me, to ignore Jesus words, and conform or omit them in order to agree that were all forgiven no matter what? that in itself is something I will never do. Gods entire word, needs division, Christ is not divided, every single word Jesus spoke is the authority always. paul telling us were forgiven doesn't negate the rest of Jesus teaching there. you honestly cant accept that? even though Jesus taught it Himself, Goid preserved the teaching in more than One account. if that's all irrelevant now......why did He teach them and tell them to teach all nations to obey His commands?
Jesus knew Hed be crucified and what that meant for us, wouldn't you think He would have taught the gog and not wasted so much of Gods time on teachings that would only apply the short time He lived? what sense does it make to any Christian that the words of Jesus Christ aren't the foundation and source for the believers? if you believe in Jesus, why not His words? if it comes to paul and Jesus whos word will you go with? I didn't know u were a pre cross irrelevant guy...wow that's like the worst doctrine besides universalism. at least some of the grace stuff wont deny The Lords word........
There is nothing But Jesus, from the time He began His ministrey the Kingdom of heaven was the only thing that would ever be from God, Jesus is the only King who will ever be from the Lord God. His words will never ever be irrelevant, they will "never pass away" Jesus says it, I believe it. the things you guys have your faith in are meant to spur you to the words of Jesus, you have to put your faith in JESUS. His words. if you have faith in Jesus
J
Hi Jason,
It would take too long to write all this out so I'm going to give out websites that address the scriptures you have asked about. Whether you read them or not is your decision but all those questions do not conflict with the gospel of the grace of Christ in the light of Jesus' finished work after the cross.
It is very possible they may conflict with what you believe Jesus is saying and to whom He is saying it to and for what purpose.
Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.
This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus. Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.
Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here is a website that talks about Matt 6 which is about forgiveness. I always like to use this website as it tackles obscure scriptures which may seem to conflict with clear scriptures in the light of the finished work of Christ and people can ask questions at the bottom of the articles and I usually learn a lot from that too.
https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/19/where-does-forgiveness-come-from-and-why-does-it-matter/
https://escapetoreality.org/2015/08/06/forgiveness-matthew-6v14-15/
We can always agree to disagree too on subjects. We both love the Lord passionately and desire to obey Him in all things as the Holy Spirit teaches us new things.
Anyway - I'm going to bed so have a great night and the rest of the weekend! God bless you...don't forget about your mom tomorrow!...
It would take too long to write all this out so I'm going to give out websites that address the scriptures you have asked about. Whether you read them or not is your decision but all those questions do not conflict with the gospel of the grace of Christ in the light of Jesus' finished work after the cross.
It is very possible they may conflict with what you believe Jesus is saying and to whom He is saying it to and for what purpose.
Matt 18:35 says that God will not forgive unless you forgive from your heart.
This was Jesus giving them the law. Moses 2.0 as it shows their need for a Savior in order for Jesus to create in them a new heart that loves and forgives just like their Father does in Jesus. Love always forgives - it's in our nature now because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
We have a new heart now - so we can't really have unforgiveness in our hearts anymore which is why Jesus said .."If you do not forgive from your heart" ....this is to expose their need for a new heart which always forgives.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love now from our new hearts in Christ and our hearts cannot sin. So Jesus's verse above in Matthew 18 would not apply to the person in Christ as it is impossible for them to have sin in their heart and to not forgive. We have the very nature of God inside us now - righteousness and holiness.
Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here is a website that talks about Matt 6 which is about forgiveness. I always like to use this website as it tackles obscure scriptures which may seem to conflict with clear scriptures in the light of the finished work of Christ and people can ask questions at the bottom of the articles and I usually learn a lot from that too.
https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/19/where-does-forgiveness-come-from-and-why-does-it-matter/
https://escapetoreality.org/2015/08/06/forgiveness-matthew-6v14-15/
We can always agree to disagree too on subjects. We both love the Lord passionately and desire to obey Him in all things as the Holy Spirit teaches us new things.
Anyway - I'm going to bed so have a great night and the rest of the weekend! God bless you...don't forget about your mom tomorrow!...
I don't need a website, I trust Jesus words
yep no hard feelings at all. my message is to go learn and follow Jesus. its approved. God bless