my last argument for obedience

[PaulMack]

Wrong believes in Doctrines will not keep you out of Heaven. BUT praying to Mary WILL keep a person out of Heaven.

Look in Exodus 20:3-5
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Here Paul shows what shall not inherit the Kingdom of God

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you

 

[Grace777x70]

Here Paul shows what shall not inherit the Kingdom of God

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you

Amen..another great scripture showing identities between those without Christ and those in Christ. The unrighteous and the righteous because of being in Christ!

The next verse in context shows this brilliantly.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In context with the book of 1 Corinthians - the people there were doing all kinds of different sins - going to the temple prostitutes for sex, taking each other to court, getting drunk at communion, creating divisions, back-biting, filled with malice, slandering each other...etc.

What did Paul do? Paul told them who they were - their true identity in Christ.

Paul told them who they were in Christ..then corrected their behavior..he didn't say you were all unsaved now..

..he told them who they were in Christ..saints..they have His righteousness, holiness.....they have the mind of Christ...etc.


1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)

[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Whenever we preach grace to believers they will want to be who they already are in Christ when they really get a revelation of Christ's wonderful unsearchable riches of His grace towards us.

( There is one extreme case in 1 Cor 7 in which Paul turned one guy over for the destruction of the flesh and that the spirit would still be saved.- this was because the people were boasting in what the guy had done for some unknown reason...he later repented in 2 Cor. )

 

[FranC]

Wrong believes in Doctrines will not keep you out of Heaven. BUT praying to Mary WILL keep a person out of Heaven.

Look in Exodus 20:3-5
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

PaulMack

I dislike being in the position of defending the CC, however, you've made an incorrect statement and I hate to just let it go by.

It is not taught that Mary is a God. No one in the CC prays to Mary thinking she is a God.
So this will not apply since God looks at the heart and in their heart they understand that only God Father and God Jesus are God and also God Holy Spirit.

Regarding the graven image - just read your very next verse -- Thou shalt not BOW DOWN thyself to them.
They don't bow down to Mary thinking she is God, the bowing down is for the following reason:

As you know, I'm sure, people were ignorant and couldn't read until fairly recently. So, all the spiritual art pre and post the renaissance was used to by church to teach people about God, Jesus, Mary, the bible story, etc. Same for statues. They made God, Jesus and the saints be more "real" since people did not read about them.

So they're bowing down to a statue because it makes everything more "real" not because they think it's God.
I do believe the LORD will be able to forgive this. Ignorance is not the fault and responsibility of the believer. The responsibility falls upon the church that does not teach well and God will certainly be upset over this, IMHO.

In post no. 1142 PilgrimPassingThrough posts who will not get to heaven. At least, this teaching is present in every church.

Fran

 

[PaulMack]

Interesting that I have seen Catholics bowing down to statues of Mary but yet we see people on this chat site insisting Catholics never bow down to Mary. Also that which you pray to is your god FranC. The very fact that Catholics do pray to Mary does show Catholics look to Mary as a god!

So why FranC are you defending Catholics who do worship Mary as a god?

The very fact that God said we are not to make any images nor bow down to them means nothing to you? Are you so blind that you refuse to see what God has said about making images and bowing down to them? ITS A SIN!

Again i have to ask FranC why are you defending the Catholics who clearly ARE worshiping Mary as their God? Could it be because your eyes have been blinded by Satan to the Truth in the Scriptures where God says we are not to make any image and we are not to bow down to them?

Like Jesus said,"get thee behind me Satan".

 

[KenAllan]

I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. Many a time when i confessed my sins to a Catholic Priest i was told to say 50 Hail Mary's before God could forgive me of my sins. Why the Hail Mary? Its because Catholics do look to Mary as being Co-god with Jesus.

Christians back in the days of the Apostles NEVER bowed down to any statue FranC. So why are you making excuses for those who clearly are not Christians?

Read the Scriptures. No where in the Scriptures did any Disciple or Apostle or follower of Jesus ever bow down to statues of Mary!

Now i have to ask this question FranC. Have you ever thought of accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Because no one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit would ever believe there is nothing wrong with bowing down to any statue of anything.

How can bowing down to a statue make things more real? Have you ever read the 10 commandments FranC? Have you ever read where God says we are not to bow down to statues? Or could it be that you have not received Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

Exodus 20:3-5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
[SUP]5[/SUP]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


What part of we are not to bow down to any image of Mary that you cannot understand FranC?

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't think that all people who have roots in the Catholic church practice what the "official" church says to do. It also takes time for people brought up in a religious system ( I would dare say that every denomination has some religious mindsets in them that are in fact anti-christ in their belief ) to get their minds renewed to the truths that are found in Christ alone for salvation.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is a prophecy teaching all who hear it that God will call His children out of the great whore at a certain time. Reason tell me this time will be just previous to or during the final and great tribulation to come.

It stands to reason, and it stands up in the sight of our Fathers' love for us all that if He will be calling His children out of the great whore, He will also be calling them out of her daughters, too numerous to mention.

The above being so should instruct all never to judge individuals for belonging to anyof these numerous cults, for only God knows what is in the hearts of men.

All of the above has made me non-denominational yet of the faith of Abraham, and further quite capable of fellowshipping with and all who love Jesus Christ as Savior and God, amen.

I don't think that all people who have roots in the Catholic church practice what the "official" church says to do. It also takes time for people brought up in a religious system ( I would dare say that every denomination has some religious mindsets in them that are in fact anti-christ in their belief ) to get their minds renewed to the truths that are found in Christ alone for salvation.

 

[FranC]

Interesting that I have seen Catholics bowing down to statues of Mary but yet we see people on this chat site insisting Catholics never bow down to Mary. Also that which you pray to is your god FranC. The very fact that Catholics do pray to Mary does show Catholics look to Mary as a god!

So why FranC are you defending Catholics who do worship Mary as a god?

The very fact that God said we are not to make any images nor bow down to them means nothing to you? Are you so blind that you refuse to see what God has said about making images and bowing down to them? ITS A SIN!

Again i have to ask FranC why are you defending the Catholics who clearly ARE worshiping Mary as their God? Could it be because your eyes have been blinded by Satan to the Truth in the Scriptures where God says we are not to make any image and we are not to bow down to them?

Like Jesus said,"get thee behind me Satan".

Gee, thanks PaulMack.

Your Christianly love is overwhelming!

I'm not Catholic, but if I were -YOU would not be a good example of Protestantism.

Do you realize that not ALL people who profess to be Christian have read the bible?
Do you realize that not all people know about not bowing down to idols?
Do you realize that most people just do what their church tells them to do?

Are they not also saved?

Are YOU the judge??

Sounds like you know all about sin and being blind to satan.
I can only assume that you have reached Christian Perfection.
Mathew 7:3-5

Fran

 

[FranC]

I was born and raised in the Catholic Church. Many a time when i confessed my sins to a Catholic Priest i was told to say 50 Hail Mary's before God could forgive me of my sins. Why the Hail Mary? Its because Catholics do look to Mary as being Co-god with Jesus.

Christians back in the days of the Apostles NEVER bowed down to any statue FranC. So why are you making excuses for those who clearly are not Christians?

Read the Scriptures. No where in the Scriptures did any Disciple or Apostle or follower of Jesus ever bow down to statues of Mary!

Now i have to ask this question FranC. Have you ever thought of accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Because no one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit would ever believe there is nothing wrong with bowing down to any statue of anything.

How can bowing down to a statue make things more real? Have you ever read the 10 commandments FranC? Have you ever read where God says we are not to bow down to statues? Or could it be that you have not received Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

Exodus 20:3-5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
[SUP]5[/SUP]Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


What part of we are not to bow down to any image of Mary that you cannot understand FranC?

First of all KenAllen, you might have been raised Catholic but you don't know your Catholic theology very well - which goes to prove my previous post to PaulMack. Most people just go to a church and do whatever it tells them to do. Do you really think God will hold them responsible for incorrect worship?

Second - You were NOT forgiven AFTER saying the 50 Hail Marys. (most priests do not adhere to this practice anymore, BTW). You were forgiven at the moment of absolution, when the priest finishes saying: In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

As to the rest, you don't know me, do you?
Don't presume to.

Fran

 

[FranC]

I don't think that all people who have roots in the Catholic church practice what the "official" church says to do. It also takes time for people brought up in a religious system ( I would dare say that every denomination has some religious mindsets in them that are in fact anti-christ in their belief ) to get their minds renewed to the truths that are found in Christ alone for salvation.

Hi Grace777

I thought I had made it clear that although I know Catholic theology very well, I am not Catholic.
Hatred must be so great, that it went unnoticed!

YOU are right, however. Most Catholics do NOT practice what the church officially teaches.
This will certainly not hinder those in the CC that ARE saved from seeing the face of God.

The day our doctrines save us, will be a sad day indeed since we are unable to agree on many things and some must surely be wrong on their doctrine.

But God will overlook all that and see the sincerity of our heart.

Fran

 

[Vdp]

If a person does not read the Bible then how can they know what God wants them to do? Every church i have been in teach the new believers about reading the Bible.

Which True Church does not teach new Christians about reading the Bible? Only those churches that are Cults insist they are not to read the Bible. I find it very hard that God does not put in the Hearts of born again Christians the desire to read His Words!

If a person only does what his church says instead of wanting to read the Scriptures to see what God says, does this not prove these are not saved people?

When i became saved i spent every waking hour i could reading the Bible!

Actually FranC you are a very good poster boy for Satan and his lies.

Do you NOT know its the Holy Spirit in us that teaches us its a sin to bow down to other gods? Its the Holy Spirit that gives us the desire to read the Bible. Its the Holy Spirit that convicts us of our sins we do. Its the Holy Spirit who directs us in the Truth.

So how can you say its all right to bow down to other gods? Could it be because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

No True Born Again Christian filled with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit would ever bow down to other gods. Its a fact of life the Holy Spirit WILL convince a person that this is wrong.

So why are you making excuses for people sinning?

I am beginning to wonder even if you yourself has accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior because no True Christian would ever teach its right to bow down to other gods.

We are to judge those who claim they are Christians. We are not to judge those who are in the World.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13[SUP]
9 [/SUP]I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; [SUP]10 [/SUP]I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

We are to judge those in the Church who claim to follow Jesus.

 

[FranC]

If a person does not read the Bible then how can they know what God wants them to do? Every church i have been in teach the new believers about reading the Bible.

Which True Church does not teach new Christians about reading the Bible? Only those churches that are Cults insist they are not to read the Bible. I find it very hard that God does not put in the Hearts of born again Christians the desire to read His Words!

If a person only does what his church says instead of wanting to read the Scriptures to see what God says, does this not prove these are not saved people?

When i became saved i spent every waking hour i could reading the Bible!

Actually FranC you are a very good poster boy for Satan and his lies.

Do you NOT know its the Holy Spirit in us that teaches us its a sin to bow down to other gods? Its the Holy Spirit that gives us the desire to read the Bible. Its the Holy Spirit that convicts us of our sins we do. Its the Holy Spirit who directs us in the Truth.

So how can you say its all right to bow down to other gods? Could it be because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

No True Born Again Christian filled with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit would ever bow down to other gods. Its a fact of life the Holy Spirit WILL convince a person that this is wrong.

So why are you making excuses for people sinning?

I am beginning to wonder even if you yourself has accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior because no True Christian would ever teach its right to bow down to other gods.

We are to judge those who claim they are Christians. We are not to judge those who are in the World.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13[SUP]
9 [/SUP]I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; [SUP]10 [/SUP]I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

We are to judge those in the Church who claim to follow Jesus.

I thought we were speaking about the Catholic church.
Are you an expert on the Catholic church?
Please share.

I leave you with this:
John 13:35

Please address all further comments to Pope Francis in Rome Italy.

Thanks.

Fran

 

[Vdp]

Pope Francis is a joke. He is not a true Born again Christian. The Lake of Fire is where Francis will spend Eternity.

 

[FranC]

Pope Francis is a joke. He is not a true Born again Christian. The Lake of Fire is where Francis will spend Eternity.

Vdp

It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

I hadn't realized that I'd meet GOD on these here threads!!

Fran

 

[Mec99]

Your not meeting God, just True Christians who know the Truth.

So if i read you correctly FranC if someone disagree with what you or the Catholic Church teaches some how they are not loving people?