Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?
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The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Eternal punishment for some translates as death ever after, the second death, as Scripture promises is the wages of sin/disobedience to God starting in Genesis. Others equate eternal punishment with torture and torment, thinking the person must be conscious for punishment to be effective, which is obviously defective thinking, since even in our justice system, death is seen as very much the most harshest punishment possible.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
In the verse above, we have the same word (Aionios) describing the eternal state of both the righteous and the unrighteous. That being said, the meaning must be the same for both. We know that eternal life for believers refers to unending life. Likewise, Eternal punishment must also mean unending punishment.
The Greek word is from the primary ollumi ἀπόλλυμι (to destroy utterly, kill,
slay; to perish; abolish etc); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
Of course I agree the word means the same thing: eternal. However that in no way translates to eternal torture or torment. I am not sure how or why anyone thinks it does, quite honestly. Once a person is dead from the second death in the lake of fire, it is eternal ever after. There is no coming back from it. That does not make it eternal torture though. There is a plethora of Scripture to support my view of death and destruction (I gave some of them already) being the wages of sin. The Bible states that death is the penalty for sin right from the early stages of Genesis. How it can be overlooked and have God turned into a sadistic monster to torture and torment the creation He gave the life of His only begotten Son for, instead, I may never understand aside from saying that people have been deceived by the lies of Satan.
Eternal life is given (extended to us) only through accepting the
propitiatory sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on our behalf.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
In the verse above, we have the same word (Aionios) describing the eternal state of both the righteous and the unrighteous. That being said, the meaning must be the same for both. We know that eternal life for believers refers to unending life. Likewise, Eternal punishment must also mean unending punishment.
The Greek word is from the primary ollumi ἀπόλλυμι (to destroy utterly, kill,
slay; to perish; abolish etc); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
Of course I agree the word means the same thing: eternal. However that in no way translates to eternal torture or torment. I am not sure how or why anyone thinks it does, quite honestly. Once a person is dead from the second death in the lake of fire, it is eternal ever after. There is no coming back from it. That does not make it eternal torture though. There is a plethora of Scripture to support my view of death and destruction (I gave some of them already) being the wages of sin. The Bible states that death is the penalty for sin right from the early stages of Genesis. How it can be overlooked and have God turned into a sadistic monster to torture and torment the creation He gave the life of His only begotten Son for, instead, I may never understand aside from saying that people have been deceived by the lies of Satan.
Eternal life is given (extended to us) only through accepting the
propitiatory sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on our behalf.
[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly those not covered by the righteous blood of Christ are
mortal and perishable. Their existence comes to an end.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clearly those not covered by the righteous blood of Christ are
mortal and perishable. Their existence comes to an end.
[/FONT]
I can only follow what others are saying, all I am doing is searching for the truth. There are those that came before me and have Biblical knowledge the same as you have, all I see is a difference in context. Personally I do not understand, so I can only let those speak that have greater understanding, I just simply observe the differences, which of course causes confusion, there can only be one truth but which one is the truth? obviously that is something I have to try and work out for myself, reading the Bible does not necessarily make me any the wiser, I am ok with the simple things but there is some deeper understanding of Scripture I have to carefully discern for myself. This is not easy for me, for whom shall I trust? was it John Donne who quoted 'Human beings do not thrive when isolated from others' 'no one is self-sufficient; everyone relies on others'. I read up on what others have to say.
I do not know I suppose I would need to do some research on this?
Here is what others might say...
even though Jesus told the thief, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise,” three days later He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father.
Here is the evidence that His Father was in Paradise: Revelation 2:7 says the tree of life “is in the midst of the paradise of God,” and Revelation 22:1, 2 describes the tree of life by the side of the river of life which flows, in turn, from the throne of God. So there is no question about Paradise being where the Father’s throne is located. The question is: How could Jesus tell the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, when He did not go there until three days later?
In the second place, Jesus and the thief did not even die on the same day. Jesus was already dead (John 19:32-34). The thieves were very much alive, and their legs were broken to hasten death and to prevent them from escaping. They undoubtedly lived on past sunset into the hours of the Sabbath and possibly longer. So how could Jesus assure the thief of being with Him in Paradise that day when they did not both die on “that day”?
I do not know I suppose I would need to do some research on this?
Here is what others might say...
even though Jesus told the thief, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise,” three days later He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father.
Here is the evidence that His Father was in Paradise: Revelation 2:7 says the tree of life “is in the midst of the paradise of God,” and Revelation 22:1, 2 describes the tree of life by the side of the river of life which flows, in turn, from the throne of God. So there is no question about Paradise being where the Father’s throne is located. The question is: How could Jesus tell the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, when He did not go there until three days later?
In the second place, Jesus and the thief did not even die on the same day. Jesus was already dead (John 19:32-34). The thieves were very much alive, and their legs were broken to hasten death and to prevent them from escaping. They undoubtedly lived on past sunset into the hours of the Sabbath and possibly longer. So how could Jesus assure the thief of being with Him in Paradise that day when they did not both die on “that day”?
There is no way the thieves would live long after having their legs broken, so they would have died (of asphyxiation) on the same day as well. The purpose of breaking the legs was, after all, to hasten death. Escaping? I don't know why but that kind of makes me laugh. How could they have escaped? They were nailed to a cross. Also, the legs would have been broken to hasten death to make sure the Sabbath was not sullied with bodies hanging dying on crosses outside the Temple. The Temple Mount is fairly close to Golgotha.
K
I didn't see the thread. I'm not her keeper. I have given her advice and she can listen or not. Shes in the water now and she can swim on her own. I speak for myself only, or haven't I made that clear? She has a right to speak the truth as she believes it. If I agree I will say so,if I disagree I will say so. But Im not running around the forums nursing anyone. I spoke my piece and Im done.
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain your position. The reason that I don't have trouble with what I consider to be the more literal, straightforward eternal-separation-from-God [idea] is that I don't envision God or any of his agents tying someone to a board and torturing them day and night for all eternity.
I believe that all mankind is composed of two components; temporary body and permanent soul. God is now holding it all together in the palm of His hand, and even now we can't seem to get along. How much worse will it be when God judges the rebellious souls and casts them out of His presence? Hell for the proud arrogant soul that voluntarily chose to go there.
I am greatly relieved that you don't hold your point of view just because you can't imagine God could be such a mean guy.
I believe that all mankind is composed of two components; temporary body and permanent soul. God is now holding it all together in the palm of His hand, and even now we can't seem to get along. How much worse will it be when God judges the rebellious souls and casts them out of His presence? Hell for the proud arrogant soul that voluntarily chose to go there.
I am greatly relieved that you don't hold your point of view just because you can't imagine God could be such a mean guy.