Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?

[Ahwatukee]

Hello kedge,

But what if the comma was after the word today instead of before it? The meaning would change completely.

The above is a commonly know false teaching. Why would Jesus tell the thief when he was telling him this information? I tell you today, not tomorrow or the next day, but today, you will be with me in paradise, some day, not today though. The comma in the wrong place makes Jesus sound like Shakespeare in the park. On top of that, you would be saying that every major translators has the comma in the wrong place:

New International Version
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

New Living Translation
And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Berean Study Bible
And Jesus said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Berean Literal Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

International Standard Version
Jesus told him, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NET Bible
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I say to you that today you shall be with me in Paradise.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

New American Standard 1977
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.

American Standard Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

English Revised Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Weymouth New Testament
"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Young's Literal Translation
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

We need to notify all of these translators that they have all made a mistake on this verse and have them change the comma position.

Jesus could not have been with the thief in heavenly paradise that Friday if He had still not ascended to the Father on Sunday.

Jesus was not with the thief in heavenly places. When His body died, His spirit departed and went into the heart of the earth in that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were. After 3 days, Jesus reentered His body in the tomb and resurrected in that immortal and glorified body. We know that He did had not ascended to the Father in heaven and that because when He resurrected He told Mary not to hold onto Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father.

 

[Ahwatukee]

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

You are correct Magenta, "those who believe in his name." However, for those who do not believe in His name, they are not the children of God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You deny scripture if you deny what it is saying. I wonder if you took the time to read all the input that I posted on the first two pages? You may want to indulge in a in depth bible study. I dont see any reason to keep posting the same scriptures over and over again

Good day MsSuzanna, Magenta

The problem is that, though I have provided the Greek words, that in many cases are translated as "destruction," Magenta has attached her own meaning to them, which is annihilation. However, I have provided her with the Greek words most used to convey what type of destruction the unrighteous will suffer which is "Apollumi and its noun "Apoleia" and neither of them are defined as annihilation, but denote complete loss of well being i.e. ruination. Another major word used to describe the destruction that the wicked will suffer is "olethros" which is used in the scripture below:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting [destruction] and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

The word in the scripture above is "Olethros" which is defined below:

Strong's Concordance

olethros: destruction, death​

Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS).3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

As you can see from the definition above, it states that olethros does not imply extinction or annihilation, but for some reason, she does not except the proof that I have provided. Even the words in the scripture which say "they will be shut out from the presence of the Lord" would demonstrate that the person who is shut out would have to be existing in order to experience being shut out. It is the same with the scripture in Rev.14, regarding those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark, which says, "They will have no rest day or night." The word "anapausis" translated as "rest" is defined as cessation, intermission and refreshment, which means that they will have no cessation or intermission from torment in the lake of fire. Even the words "the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever" demonstrates that those who are in the lake of fire would have to be existing in order to experience torment for ever and ever, I would hope that for the sake of the truth of God's word that she would be unbiased and open when considering this information.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Dead people do not weep and gnash their teeth

Very true. Good point!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Of course I agree the word means the same thing: eternal. However that in no way translates to eternal torture or torment.

Hi Magenta,

Well, it is stated that the punishment is in the lake of fire, so I believe that would qualify as torment, don't you? And since the word "Aionios" is used for both the righteous and the wicked, they must mean the same for both parties, wouldn't you agree? And since we know that eternal life is on-going, conscious existence in eternity with God, then eternal punishment would also have to be on-going, conscious existence in separation from God. And that separation is defined as being in torment in flame.

 

[kedge]

Earth is intended for man’s dwelling for eternity had not sin entered.

So what happens in the future? if Jesus paid for the sins of mankind will righteous mankind live on a new planet earth or in paradise heaven where God lives? has God created a new plan for mankinds future and where?

death.

I understand this part and many here and elsewhere say the wages of sin is death, I get that and that is easy to understand.

soul if not saved will be separated from God (spiritual) for eternity in hell.

Yes this is what I am trying to ascertain ..what is hell? where is hell? is hell a place where the unrighteous suffer for all eternity, punishment in hell? but many christians have different answers to this question.

hell is not prepared for man originally but for Satan and his co-host.

But what really is hell? who amongst us say for absolute certainty what hell is?

I really don’t know if you have a true intention.

One purpose I have is to try to find out what the truth is.

or have an honest question.

I try to be as honest as I can be, I think my questions are honorable in principles?

Anyway, this is a late response and honestly I don’t know if you still buy this one.

I take it all at face value and I listen to what others say on matters, I find it very interesting.

 

[kedge]

The above is a commonly know false teaching. Why would Jesus tell the thief when he was telling him this information?

I'm not quite sure what you mean, what information are you refering to?

I tell you today, not tomorrow or the next day, but today, you will be with me in paradise, some day, not today though.

Yes that is what some Christians say; that the thief would be in paradise at some future date or day and not on that day, simply because Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, so Jesus and the thief could not have gone to paradise heaven on that particular day.

The comma in the wrong place makes Jesus sound like Shakespeare in the park. On top of that, you would be saying that every major translators has the comma in the wrong place.

It's not what I am saying it is what other Christians are interpreting from Scripture, perhaps you might of misunderstood me; I never stated that all the commas are in the wrong place in the Bible, It is a possibility that a mistake did happen because mistakes do happen.

Jesus was not with the thief in heavenly places.

But some say the thief and Jesus did both ascend to heaven on that day.

When His body died, His spirit departed and went into the heart of the earth in that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus were.

And where is that place?

After 3 days, Jesus reentered His body in the tomb and resurrected in that immortal and glorified body. We know that He did had not ascended to the Father in heaven and that because when He resurrected He told Mary not to hold onto Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father.

But this is not was is being discussed, the original thread starter saidHell. It is in the Bible isnt it?


a question

what is hell and where is this alleged place?

 

[Pemican]

Kedge, never mind the opinions of men, listen to what Jesus said if you seek the truth:

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[MikeHenderson]

So if there is no Hell and there is no Lake of Fire then what does God do with those who spit in His eye and refuse to follow Him? Does He just ignore then and allow then into Heaven? Why then should anybody follow God if those who do not follow Him receive the same rewards as those who do?

You can teach all you want about no Hell and no Lake of Fire. BUT, it does not matter what you believe because God is in charge and there is nothing you can do to stop God from punishing those who refuse to accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

There are many passages in the Scriptures about Hell, Just because you want to believe Hell is not real means absolutely nothing.

Luke 16:19-31
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ [SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— [SUP]28 [/SUP]for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ [SUP]30 [/SUP]But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This is a real even that will happen because there is the name of the person Lazarus who God was talking about.

Accept it folks, Hell is real and eternal punishment is real and just because you have been taught to reject everything you refuse to believe in does not nullify what God has said He will do.

 

[Sirk]

So if there is no Hell and there is no Lake of Fire then what does God do with those who spit in His eye and refuse to follow Him? Does He just ignore then and allow then into Heaven? Why then should anybody follow God if those who do not follow Him receive the same rewards as those who do?

You can teach all you want about no Hell and no Lake of Fire. BUT, it does not matter what you believe because God is in charge and there is nothing you can do to stop God from punishing those who refuse to accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

There are many passages in the Scriptures about Hell, Just because you want to believe Hell is not real means absolutely nothing.

Luke 16:19-31
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ [SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— [SUP]28 [/SUP]for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ [SUP]30 [/SUP]But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This is a real even that will happen because there is the name of the person Lazarus who God was talking about.

Accept it folks, Hell is real and eternal punishment is real and just because you have been taught to reject everything you refuse to believe in does not nullify what God has said He will do.

You're talking about universalism. I don't think that is correct either.

 

[MikeHenderson]

No Sirk, i'm talking about what God has said in the Scriptures. Are you questioning what the Holy Spirit has said?

You do know Sirk this passage is from the Holy Spirit!

 

[Willie-T]

What is the purpose of punishment? IOW, why do you punish your own children? Are you hoping they will remain in misery and pain for the rest of their lives (and beyond, if you could make it so)?

Considering how often we are referred to as His creations, (children) and how often our relationship to Him is spoken of in terms of parenthood, I think we might be missing something not to keep all that in mind whenever we think of what comes after this life...... for obedient AND disobedient children.

The parable of the Prodigal son seems inescapable to me in this context. Where was the "cut-off point" that the father would have shut his door and told the son to go lie in the bed he had made for himself? Don't you think that would have been one of the most important things Jesus would have wanted to get across to us.... that after a point, God will turn His back on us? I mean, the story is nice, but where is the DOOM?

And just like many of us are, right this minute, getting incensed at me writing this, and just itching to get at the keyboard to refute every word I am saying, the older son, also, was furious that his disobedient brother was not being punished forever.

The same idea is shown to us in the parable of the workers hired early who hated the idea of the Johnny-come-latelies also getting the same pay they got.

And Jesus turning around and telling Peter (I believe it was) "What is it to you if I want this other man to live till I return?"

Sure, we can put our usual "qualifiers" on any of these stories, and repeat the same "Well, that was only while they were living and still had a chance to "repent", arguments." (And, of course many here will) But it is striking to me that Jesus never, in any of those stories, even hinted at that scenario.

.......................... Just something to put in your "Humm?" box, and think about.

 

[kedge]

listen to what Jesus said if you seek the truth:

This is what I am trying to do, but many Christians from what I can see are aware that they need to understand what the Bible teaches, so this too is what I am doing to the best of my ability, plus, I can not know it all on my own, no man can. This is what I have found when searching, Matthew 13:34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable. Jesus always used stories and illustrations like these when speaking to the crowds. In fact, he never spoke to them without using such parables. So I have to read the Bible to understand it but I can never be sure that what I think it is saying is in fact the truth, that is why I believe it is important to understand the Bible as a collective mind than go it solo.

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."- Mt 11:25.

So clearly it looks as if those that are seeking the truth need to search for it in the Bible (obviously) I am not a Bible expert, I am not a know-it-all, I am struggling to understand what Jesus was saying in His parables let alone anything else, hence the collective minds.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Yes this is heart warming, many including yourself help others to see that Jesus is life, but this does not tell us what hell really is.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

This shows a loving Creator God.


this is what someone else said on the internet,


So let me get this straight. Our God of LOVE is going to torture the lost with fire for the ceaseless ages to come? And all for a SHORT life of sin, in a body that is PRONE to sin because of the fall of Adam and Eve? Does this sound like love?

 

[kedge]

So if there is no Hell and there is no Lake of Fire.

I don't think anyone is saying there is no hell nor lake of fire, the questions are what is hell? and what is the lake of fire? from my owm research some Christians say that hell is simply the abode of the dead, when one dies one returns to dust, some say it is a sleep like state and the remeberance of that individual is with the God of the Bible? some Christians say that the lake of fire is symbolic of the final destruction of Satan and all who follow Satan or oppose the Kingdom of the God of the Bible? some Christians teach other things like when you die and if you have done good deeds you go to paradise in heaven? and if you have done bad things and you don't really care anyway you burn in hell for all eternity as punishment for lack of repentance and unrighteousness?

nothing you can do to stop God from punishing those who refuse to accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

Agreed but what is that punishment eternal death or eternal torture?

Luke 16:19-31
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ [SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— [SUP]28 [/SUP]for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ [SUP]30 [/SUP]But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This is a real even that will happen because there is the name of the person Lazarus who God was talking about.

Yes but take a look at what others have said about the rich man and lazarus? is it a parable? should it be understood as literal meaning?



Taken From the religious internet

Today many Christians believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a historical account of two individuals’ literal experiences in the afterlife. Based on this belief, some people teach that those who are consigned to the fiery torments of hell will never stop burning throughout all eternity. As with the parable of the trees and the bramble (Judges 9:8-15), however, serious problems arise with a literal interpretation of the story elements.

Can we believe that all the saints are even now gathered in Abraham’s bosom? If they are, in whose bosom does Abraham rest? And if there is really a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell, how could the rich man possibly have been heard by Abraham? Perhaps more disturbing, how could the saints enjoy the comforts of heaven while enduring the cries of the wicked being tormented?


There has been much debate in the Christian world over the true meaning of the story of “the rich man and Lazarus,” spoken by Jesus. The various arguments tend to boil down to a single issue: Is the story a true tale of the characters involved, or is it a parable?

Those who understand the story literally tend to argue two main points: that life continues immediately after death, either in heaven or hell, before the return of Jesus Christ; and that hell is a place of eternal torment. Those who consider the story as a parable tend to look for the spiritual meaning rather than the literal one. Why is there such confusion?


things that must be true, according to the story, if it is literal:

• The righteous dead go to live in Abraham’s bosom
• The wicked dead are able to speak despite their torment
• Those in hell can speak to those in heaven, and vice-versa
• The dead in heaven and hell both have bodies
• A drop of water is expected to relieve the torments of hell

Accept it folks, Hell is real and eternal punishment is real and just because you have been taught to reject everything you refuse to believe in does not nullify what God has said He will do.

Yes but what is this place called hell and where is it?

 

[Willie-T]

I don't think anyone is saying there is no hell nor lake of fire............. (snipped for brevity)

Some wise thinking all the way through this post, K. (except that it's honestly a parable. Go look up other incidences of "Abraham's Bosom".)

 

[BeyondET]

So if there is no Hell and there is no Lake of Fire then what does God do with those who spit in His eye and refuse to follow Him? Does He just ignore then and allow then into Heaven? Why then should anybody follow God if those who do not follow Him receive the same rewards as those who do?

You can teach all you want about no Hell and no Lake of Fire. BUT, it does not matter what you believe because God is in charge and there is nothing you can do to stop God from punishing those who refuse to accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

There are many passages in the Scriptures about Hell, Just because you want to believe Hell is not real means absolutely nothing.

Luke 16:19-31
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ [SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— [SUP]28 [/SUP]for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ [SUP]30 [/SUP]But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This is a real even that will happen because there is the name of the person Lazarus who God was talking about.

Accept it folks, Hell is real and eternal punishment is real and just because you have been taught to reject everything you refuse to believe in does not nullify what God has said He will do.

I hear your point, but on the other hand would the verses you posted have only to do with hell or could it have other meanings for someone else?.

 

[oyster67]

What is the purpose of punishment? IOW, why do you punish your own children? Are you hoping they will remain in misery and pain for the rest of their lives (and beyond, if you could make it so)?

Considering how often we are referred to as His creations, (children) and how often our relationship to Him is spoken of in terms of parenthood, I think we might be missing something not to keep all that in mind whenever we think of what comes after this life...... for obedient AND disobedient children.

The parable of the Prodigal son seems inescapable to me in this context. Where was the "cut-off point" that the father would have shut his door and told the son to go lie in the bed he had made for himself? Don't you think that would have been one of the most important things Jesus would have wanted to get across to us.... that after a point, God will turn His back on us? I mean, the story is nice, but where is the DOOM?

And just like many of us are, right this minute, getting incensed at me writing this, and just itching to get at the keyboard to refute every word I am saying, the older son, also, was furious that his disobedient brother was not being punished forever.

The same idea is shown to us in the parable of the workers hired early who hated the idea of the Johnny-come-latelies also getting the same pay they got.

And Jesus turning around and telling Peter (I believe it was) "What is it to you if I want this other man to live till I return?"

Sure, we can put our usual "qualifiers" on any of these stories, and repeat the same "Well, that was only while they were living and still had a chance to "repent", arguments." (And, of course many here will) But it is striking to me that Jesus never, in any of those stories, even hinted at that scenario.

.......................... Just something to put in your "Humm?" box, and think about.

I don't know if this will be helpful or change your mind or anything, but I think of the punishment as just the realization that one is being sent away for a good long time. It is in the realization that one has missed out on all the good things God had planned for him. The pain will be from him kicking himself in the butt over how close he had been to having it all, but then turning and walking away.

 

[BeyondET]

I don't know if this will be helpful or change your mind or anything, but I think of the punishment as just the realization that one is being sent away for a good long time. It is in the realization that one has missed out on all the good things God had planned for him. The pain will be from him kicking himself in the butt over how close he had been to having it all, but then turning and walking away.

Indeed the prodigal son did this also he came close but ended up in slop so he turned and went home.

 

[Willie-T]

I don't know if this will be helpful or change your mind or anything, but I think of the punishment as just the realization that one is being sent away for a good long time. It is in the realization that one has missed out on all the good things God had planned for him. The pain will be from him kicking himself in the butt over how close he had been to having it all, but then turning and walking away.

How would that "change my mind?" It is exactly what I believe "punishment" is all about. A GOOD LONG TIME of kicking yourself in the butt is not Eternity in torture.

 

[oyster67]

Indeed the prodigal son did this also he came close but ended up in slop so he turned and went home.

Amen. I'm glad He finally became humble enough to go home.

Like your astronomy avatar pic. The gigantic glow-in-the-dark clock that God created for all of us.