Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?
- Thread starter MsSuzanna
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
"The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
Jesus spoke parables to that generation of Israel. But to the disciples and therefore all believers', Jesus said, "the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom has been given to you." Most of the parables that Jesus spoke to the crowd, the meaning was told to the disciples. Therefore, No, Jesus did not teach many mature Christians out there only in parables.
Let's see if the above stands up as true: Scripture states that, along with the rich man, all those who end up in Hades will remain there in torment until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. That means that people have been accumulating in there from the beginning of history. At the end of that thousand years, they are resurrected and stand before God at the great white throne and are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire.
Every person who comes into the world, their spirit/soul exists forever and it is the same for the angels! For regarding the angels who sinned, they have been put into gloomy dungeons in chains of darkness until the great white throne judgment. Life and death are the two possible states of existence for all people. Those who obtain eternal life will exist forever in the kingdom of God, while the unrighteous will exist forever in separation from God in complete loss of well being. According to scripture, life and death are both states of eternal existence. It is the state of that existence in relation to God that defines life or death.
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
Jesus spoke parables to that generation of Israel. But to the disciples and therefore all believers', Jesus said, "the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom has been given to you." Most of the parables that Jesus spoke to the crowd, the meaning was told to the disciples. Therefore, No, Jesus did not teach many mature Christians out there only in parables.
Let's see if the above stands up as true: Scripture states that, along with the rich man, all those who end up in Hades will remain there in torment until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. That means that people have been accumulating in there from the beginning of history. At the end of that thousand years, they are resurrected and stand before God at the great white throne and are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire.
Every person who comes into the world, their spirit/soul exists forever and it is the same for the angels! For regarding the angels who sinned, they have been put into gloomy dungeons in chains of darkness until the great white throne judgment. Life and death are the two possible states of existence for all people. Those who obtain eternal life will exist forever in the kingdom of God, while the unrighteous will exist forever in separation from God in complete loss of well being. According to scripture, life and death are both states of eternal existence. It is the state of that existence in relation to God that defines life or death.
Revelation 9:6-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] In those days people will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will flee from them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The appearance of the locusts was like horses equipped for battle. Something like gold crowns was on their heads; their faces were like men’s faces;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] they had hair like women’s hair; their teeth were like lions’ teeth;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] they had chests like iron breastplates; the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses rushing into battle;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and they had tails with stingers like scorpions, so that with their tails they had the power to harm people for five months.
When it happens it will fit scripture to the T. Until we can only strive to speculate the details. Personally I think the reference to Locusts describes how they swarm to attack mankind. I think the reference to horses equipped for battle, gives us the general size of the beasts. And the scorpion-like tails is how they harm people.
John paints one scary picture, whether they look like that drawing or just a wild guess after seeing something beyond John's comprehension.
OR was this a swarm of these in the sky and John had NO WAY TO COMPREHEND WHAT HE WAS SEEING:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81lkBa6S2Fc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp4A4bu41bM
[SUP]6 [/SUP] In those days people will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will flee from them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The appearance of the locusts was like horses equipped for battle. Something like gold crowns was on their heads; their faces were like men’s faces;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] they had hair like women’s hair; their teeth were like lions’ teeth;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] they had chests like iron breastplates; the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses rushing into battle;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and they had tails with stingers like scorpions, so that with their tails they had the power to harm people for five months.
When it happens it will fit scripture to the T. Until we can only strive to speculate the details. Personally I think the reference to Locusts describes how they swarm to attack mankind. I think the reference to horses equipped for battle, gives us the general size of the beasts. And the scorpion-like tails is how they harm people.
John paints one scary picture, whether they look like that drawing or just a wild guess after seeing something beyond John's comprehension.
OR was this a swarm of these in the sky and John had NO WAY TO COMPREHEND WHAT HE WAS SEEING:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81lkBa6S2Fc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp4A4bu41bM
I'm not schooling anyone, I simply showed that there are many mature Christians out there that Jesus only taught in parables, and many mature Christians can show from the Bible that the rich man and lazarus does not teach the immortality of the soul, it is their interpretation just like it is your interpretation of Scripture, but only one can be true. I simply put forward from my perspective on things that there are two sides to the story and anyone has the option of making an informed choice.
Taken from the religious internet
Jesus instructed His disciples not to stop anyone from acting in His name even if they didn’t have the proper credentials.
Anyone Not Against Us Is for Us
Mark9:38-40
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us.
In your opinion.
According to the Scripture above I disagree with you
[ removed due to rudeness]
Taken from the religious internet
Jesus instructed His disciples not to stop anyone from acting in His name even if they didn’t have the proper credentials.
Anyone Not Against Us Is for Us
Mark9:38-40
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us.
In your opinion.
According to the Scripture above I disagree with you
[ removed due to rudeness]
It's not just them many other Christians make it clear in the Bible about the teaching of the unrighteous burning in hell for all eterntiy is a false doctrine. It has been exposed for what it is and it is a lie and some on here porpound that lie. I shall leave some of you lot to your lies and false Christian doctrines.
HOW WOULD JOHN DESCRIBE THESE:
Yeah, Hal Lindsey made his claim in one of his books that they were Apache helicopters, but the problem with that interpretation is that John is told that they have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss. This angel is the none other than the beast who comes up out of the Abyss and kills the witnesses. As for John not being able to comprehend what he was seeing, he gave a very detailed description of them, hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, faces like human faces, crowns like crowns of gold and the most significant is that an angel comes down from heaven, having the key to the Abyss and opens it, which is where these things come out of and smoke comes up out of the Abyss like smoke from a great furnace. There are some things that may seem like they could be helicopters, like the breast plates of iron and their wings sounding like many horses and chariots rushing into battle, but the other details would rule out helicopters, in my opinion anyway. I believe that there are going to be supernatural events taking place on this earth during that time that mankind has never seen before nor could even imagine.
I personally believe that the reason why trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are referred to as woes is because they are all demonic in nature. If we look at trumpet 6/2nd woe, a third of the earth's population will be killed by those four fallen angels bound at the Euphrates and their army of 200 million, which I believe are also demonic.
In your own interpretation yes, I believe it is nonsense though, the Holy Bible tells me the wages of sin is death, death is the end of life. I don't even believe that all the righteous will go to a paradise heaven to be with God, I absolutely do not believe that when the unrighteous people die they suffer and burn in hell for all eternity. Death ends life and there is nothing else but being in a dead state and in a sense being asleep in that death, many Christians believe this many don't. You can bang on about it till the cows come home for all I care Ahwatukee, it is just your own interpretation at the end of the day and it is not necessarily the truth you speak. I reckon that when the majority of good and bad people die they return to the dust they were formed from and there is nothing else to bring them back except for the resurrection which appears to be set for a future date when God decides to execute His Judgement on mankind on this planet earth once again like He did in the past. The end
This is where the error lies, i.e. your definition of the state of death. We have already demonstrated through scripture the conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after the death of the body. It is demonstrated with Moses and Elijah meeting with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus telling the thief that he would be with him in paradise that very day, the souls under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal and many more. The only way that you can get around these as proof of conscious existence of the spirit/soul after death, is to distort or circumvent those scriptures so that they don't mean what they says. In addition to this, we have Paul stating that "to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord" and that he was torn between remaining in the body and his spirit departing to go and be in the presence of the Lord, which he said was better by far.
You keep saying this while at the same time I am providing solid scripture to support it. You are just determined to continue to ignore those scriptures. How can it be my own interpretation when the scriptures are staring you in the face? Good exegesis is to do a comparison of all scriptures instead of choosing one side and distorting the scriptures that support the opposite, which is what you and so many others do.
Those are there bodies only and has nothing to do with their spirit/soul. As I demonstrated through scripture, when the body dies, the spirit/soul departs and goes to either to be in the presence of the Lord or down into Hades. Here's another proof of the spirit/soul existing after death: Saul employed the witch of Endor to call up Samuel, who when he came up said to Saul, "why have you called me up?" Therefore, if there is no consciousness of the spirit/soul after death, where did Samuel come from and how was he able to speak to Saul telling him that by that time tomorrow, he and his son would be joining him in Sheol? You need to do a lot more study on this subject, but more important is to examine all of the scriptures regarding this issue and not just the ones that support your adopted interpretation.
Just some friendly advice.
You keep saying this while at the same time I am providing solid scripture to support it. You are just determined to continue to ignore those scriptures. How can it be my own interpretation when the scriptures are staring you in the face? Good exegesis is to do a comparison of all scriptures instead of choosing one side and distorting the scriptures that support the opposite, which is what you and so many others do.
Those are there bodies only and has nothing to do with their spirit/soul. As I demonstrated through scripture, when the body dies, the spirit/soul departs and goes to either to be in the presence of the Lord or down into Hades. Here's another proof of the spirit/soul existing after death: Saul employed the witch of Endor to call up Samuel, who when he came up said to Saul, "why have you called me up?" Therefore, if there is no consciousness of the spirit/soul after death, where did Samuel come from and how was he able to speak to Saul telling him that by that time tomorrow, he and his son would be joining him in Sheol? You need to do a lot more study on this subject, but more important is to examine all of the scriptures regarding this issue and not just the ones that support your adopted interpretation.
Just some friendly advice.
I don't think so. At death all living things go to the same place, back to the earth, a return to dust.
[h=1]Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. [/h]
[h=1]Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. [/h]
I agree, but I also would have pointed out the the SO-CALLED parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is ACTUALLY A TRUE BIOGRAPHICAL STORY, and not a parable. JESUS NEVER gave a name to anyone when it was only a parable. ALSO, the EXACT number of brothers that the Rich had would be totally irrelevant if it was only a parable, and totally relevant when telling the biography of the Rich Man. So why did Jesus not mention the Rich Man's name? Most likely because some or all of the brothers were standing there in the crowd listening to HIM tell the biographical story, and Jesus respectfully did not want to embarrass them.
I also noticed you used "spirit/soul" exists forever. I think that is a common mistake that adds to the confusion that spirit and soul are the same thing. I think even our translators added to that confusion, when the Bible clearly says they are NOT the same thing.
Hebrews 4:12 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts (in the soul) and intentions of the heart (in the spirit).
I know when you look at this next verse, you will agree that there has been an ongoing debate about it's meaning for centuries. However, I believe that confusion over soul and spirit both being immortal in the unbeliever, can also be resolved in understanding the division of soul and of spirit.
Matthew 10:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is my understanding that the Greek word that translates to "destroy" means to be totally consumed by fire. That makes the soul and body of the unbelievers in hell NOT IMMORTAL. HOWEVER, there is NO MENTION, about what happens to the unbelievers human spirit in hell. I believe that is clear evidence that the "human spirit" in hell will be eternally tormented.
I admit, it is extremely hard to find anyone defining in detail, the difference between soul and spirit. However for me, the light bulb of understanding came on in looking at the Greek word for soul.
Greek Strong's Number: 5590
Greek Word: ψυχή
Transliteration: psychē or psuche
Phonetic Pronunciation: psoo-khay'
Root: from <G5594>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 9:608,1342
Part of Speech: n f
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
soul 58
life 40
mind 3
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Not only can psyche be translated MIND, but also when you go to the Strong's word "mind" G3563, you will find this statement:
Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Why would that statement be there if the Greeks were not in the habit of using those two words interchangeably?
I believe the Greek usage of the word "soul" ([FONT=Gentium !important]psychē)[/FONT] is referring to the some total of the invisible activity that goes on between one's ears; while the activity of the spirit (good or evil) takes place the heart; making them two different things.
No spiritually dead does not refer a cessation of activity, but rather the exact opposite of eternally living and loving the LORD our GOD. The Holy Spirit brings our spiritually dead, self-centered, rebellious human spirit, to eternally living and loving the LORD our GOD, when we willingly choose to surrender to Jesus as LORD, meaning MASTER.
Brother, I have a question, you said "their spirit/soul exists forever and it is the same for the angels"; DO ANGELS HAVE SOULS? I really do not know, as I have always thought they were only spirit beings.
Also notice how SOUL is used in this verse:
Revelation 16:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Yes that too is G5990. Doesn't that mean every living creature in the sea? Wouldn't that in itself clarify that the Apostles understood SOUL, to be the life force that drives brain activity?
I also noticed you used "spirit/soul" exists forever. I think that is a common mistake that adds to the confusion that spirit and soul are the same thing. I think even our translators added to that confusion, when the Bible clearly says they are NOT the same thing.
Hebrews 4:12 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts (in the soul) and intentions of the heart (in the spirit).
I know when you look at this next verse, you will agree that there has been an ongoing debate about it's meaning for centuries. However, I believe that confusion over soul and spirit both being immortal in the unbeliever, can also be resolved in understanding the division of soul and of spirit.
Matthew 10:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is my understanding that the Greek word that translates to "destroy" means to be totally consumed by fire. That makes the soul and body of the unbelievers in hell NOT IMMORTAL. HOWEVER, there is NO MENTION, about what happens to the unbelievers human spirit in hell. I believe that is clear evidence that the "human spirit" in hell will be eternally tormented.
I admit, it is extremely hard to find anyone defining in detail, the difference between soul and spirit. However for me, the light bulb of understanding came on in looking at the Greek word for soul.
Greek Strong's Number: 5590
Greek Word: ψυχή
Transliteration: psychē or psuche
Phonetic Pronunciation: psoo-khay'
Root: from <G5594>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 9:608,1342
Part of Speech: n f
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
soul 58
life 40
mind 3
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Not only can psyche be translated MIND, but also when you go to the Strong's word "mind" G3563, you will find this statement:
Compare <G5590> (psuche).
Why would that statement be there if the Greeks were not in the habit of using those two words interchangeably?
I believe the Greek usage of the word "soul" ([FONT=Gentium !important]psychē)[/FONT] is referring to the some total of the invisible activity that goes on between one's ears; while the activity of the spirit (good or evil) takes place the heart; making them two different things.
No spiritually dead does not refer a cessation of activity, but rather the exact opposite of eternally living and loving the LORD our GOD. The Holy Spirit brings our spiritually dead, self-centered, rebellious human spirit, to eternally living and loving the LORD our GOD, when we willingly choose to surrender to Jesus as LORD, meaning MASTER.
Brother, I have a question, you said "their spirit/soul exists forever and it is the same for the angels"; DO ANGELS HAVE SOULS? I really do not know, as I have always thought they were only spirit beings.
Also notice how SOUL is used in this verse:
Revelation 16:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Yes that too is G5990. Doesn't that mean every living creature in the sea? Wouldn't that in itself clarify that the Apostles understood SOUL, to be the life force that drives brain activity?
Last edited:
I think you make a good point, but I am also remembering that the demons that had the appearance of frogs, manipulate Armies from all over the world to move to Israel for war. So could John seeing a vision beyond his comprehension, tell what were actual demons, and what were mechanized war machines whose operators were manipulated by demons.
For example, this is another portion of scripture that leaves one questioning, "Is he describing only spirit beings (angels and or demons) , or mechanized war fair involving spirit beings?
Ezekiel 1:13-21 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches moving to and fro among the living creatures. And the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the living creatures darted to and fro, like the appearance of a flash of lightning.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl. And the four had the same likeness, their appearance and construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel. (Tires on a rim?)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] When they went, they went in any of their four directions without turning as they went.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And their rims were tall and awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all around.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
For example, this is another portion of scripture that leaves one questioning, "Is he describing only spirit beings (angels and or demons) , or mechanized war fair involving spirit beings?
Ezekiel 1:13-21 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches moving to and fro among the living creatures. And the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the living creatures darted to and fro, like the appearance of a flash of lightning.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl. And the four had the same likeness, their appearance and construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel. (Tires on a rim?)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] When they went, they went in any of their four directions without turning as they went.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And their rims were tall and awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all around.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
Hello VCO,
Yes, I totally agree. I have also continued to maintain that parables for the most part contain symbolism representing the literal, where--as you stated--the rich man and Lazarus uses real names and people and the real location of Hades. One would have to force this event into being a parable. Regarding this, if you were to have a 100 people to give the symbolic meaning of the rich man and Lazarus, not one of them would be the same and that because there is nothing in the scriptures to identify any of the characteristics of this event.
Yes, you are correct. That is exactly why I use spirit/soul and that because--as you pointed out--scripture identifies the soul and spirit as being separate. Regarding this, when the body dies, I can only surmise that the spirit and soul are bound together, for I am not able to discern the dividing of soul and spirit and there I write spirit/soul. I only know that consciousness of who the person exists forever whether in the presence of God or in separation from God. That said, I suppose that those who are blessed to be in the presence of God in eternal life will be so in their resurrected bodies, soul and spirit.
Yes, I totally agree. I have also continued to maintain that parables for the most part contain symbolism representing the literal, where--as you stated--the rich man and Lazarus uses real names and people and the real location of Hades. One would have to force this event into being a parable. Regarding this, if you were to have a 100 people to give the symbolic meaning of the rich man and Lazarus, not one of them would be the same and that because there is nothing in the scriptures to identify any of the characteristics of this event.
Yes, you are correct. That is exactly why I use spirit/soul and that because--as you pointed out--scripture identifies the soul and spirit as being separate. Regarding this, when the body dies, I can only surmise that the spirit and soul are bound together, for I am not able to discern the dividing of soul and spirit and there I write spirit/soul. I only know that consciousness of who the person exists forever whether in the presence of God or in separation from God. That said, I suppose that those who are blessed to be in the presence of God in eternal life will be so in their resurrected bodies, soul and spirit.
Morning VCO,
My take on this is that, since these demons that look like frogs are coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, seeing that we know that the beast and false prophet are literal beings, I would think that it would rule out as representing military machines. Also, I believe that if John saw something like a personnel carrier or something with wheels on it, he would be more apt to call it a chariot or a carriage, for he uses the word carriage in Rev.18:13 and well as the word chariot in Rev.9.
Regarding the above, these living beings are described by Ezekiel, Isaiah and John in Revelation, as being in heaven. Both Isaiah 6:3 and Rev.4:8 record them as continually saying "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty!" Furthermore, these beings are interacting with God in heaven. In the book of Revelation, they are also the ones who--after the Lord opens each seal--they call out the individual plagues associated with that seal. In addition, these beings are seen as being in the area of the throne of God and falling down to worship and singing songs with the twenty four elders and the myriad of angels. That said, I personally believe that these four living beings are some specific class of angelic beings that are described with having some amazing attributes that we just can't fathom. Each of them have four faces, are covered with eyes all over, they have what is called, "whirling wheels" that are also covered with eyes and the spirit of these beings resides in each of those whirling wheels that have the appearance of chrysolite. All I can say is that I look forward to seeing them and rest of heaven first hand.
My take on this is that, since these demons that look like frogs are coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, seeing that we know that the beast and false prophet are literal beings, I would think that it would rule out as representing military machines. Also, I believe that if John saw something like a personnel carrier or something with wheels on it, he would be more apt to call it a chariot or a carriage, for he uses the word carriage in Rev.18:13 and well as the word chariot in Rev.9.
Regarding the above, these living beings are described by Ezekiel, Isaiah and John in Revelation, as being in heaven. Both Isaiah 6:3 and Rev.4:8 record them as continually saying "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty!" Furthermore, these beings are interacting with God in heaven. In the book of Revelation, they are also the ones who--after the Lord opens each seal--they call out the individual plagues associated with that seal. In addition, these beings are seen as being in the area of the throne of God and falling down to worship and singing songs with the twenty four elders and the myriad of angels. That said, I personally believe that these four living beings are some specific class of angelic beings that are described with having some amazing attributes that we just can't fathom. Each of them have four faces, are covered with eyes all over, they have what is called, "whirling wheels" that are also covered with eyes and the spirit of these beings resides in each of those whirling wheels that have the appearance of chrysolite. All I can say is that I look forward to seeing them and rest of heaven first hand.
I am not a fan of Soul Sleep Theology, but doesn't your linking of spirit/soul opinion give more credence to Soul Sleep Theology, than you would ever want to:
Job 33:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
Psalm 16:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 30:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] O LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Those Soul Sleep Theologians always link Soul and Spirit too, and then use that to DENY that absent from the body and present with the LORD means that our human spirits go instantly to Heaven to be with the LORD upon our death. By KEEPING my understanding that SOUL is only a reference to the part of the body that is the living human Psyche or Mind with all of it's cognitive abilities, I forever protect the FACT that the human spirit is the part of man that departs the body and does not die. What most do not understand is that the human spirit also thinks, and is not part of the human mind.
Psalm 146:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.
Am I not correct, the plans of a human being are part of his or her mind or their SOUL?
I know most translations say the souls of the tribulation saints were under the altar, and that is what I was referring to earlier that even our translators have added to the confusion that soul and spirit are linked, when it says the Bible is able to divide soul from spirit. Look how Holman's Christian Standard Bible translates that verse, insuring that everyone knows it is not literally referring to human SOULS being under the Altar:
[SUP]
[/SUP]Revelation 6:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
Souls certainly can be another way to refer to people or living beings.
1 Corinthians 15:45 (ASV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul (human being). The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Revelation 16:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul (being) died in the sea.
Also to say that Soul refers to the immortal part of man, cross grains with what is being said in Rev. 16:3.
Hosea 10:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I will discipline them at My discretion; nations will be gathered against them to put them in bondage for their two crimes.
Jeremiah 49:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Look, I am about to bring terror on you— ⌊this is⌋ the declaration of the Lord GOD of Hosts— from all those around you. You will be banished, each man headlong, with no one to gather up the fugitives.
There is GOD gathering earthly armies to do His will.
Revelation 16:13-14 (NRSV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
There are demons gathering earthly armies to try to stop CHRIST from coming back.
What I am saying is I do not think John or the Prophets in their visions would have been able to distinguish between the demons involved the end times prophecies, and the modern day war machines built by men.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I will discipline them at My discretion; nations will be gathered against them to put them in bondage for their two crimes.
Jeremiah 49:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Look, I am about to bring terror on you— ⌊this is⌋ the declaration of the Lord GOD of Hosts— from all those around you. You will be banished, each man headlong, with no one to gather up the fugitives.
There is GOD gathering earthly armies to do His will.
Revelation 16:13-14 (NRSV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And I saw three foul spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] These are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
There are demons gathering earthly armies to try to stop CHRIST from coming back.
What I am saying is I do not think John or the Prophets in their visions would have been able to distinguish between the demons involved the end times prophecies, and the modern day war machines built by men.
Last edited: