Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?

[Grace777x70]

Let me try to explain Hebrews 6:4-6:

The person who has been enlightened by God and who has received the Holy Spirit, etc. - if this person falls away (leaves the Lord - "backslides", then it in impossible for him/her to be brought back to repentance as long as they are continuing to "crucify the Son of God afresh" and are continuing to "put him to an open shame"

The "continuing" is based on the use of the Greek present participle

Here is a great short video about Hebrews 6..

[video=youtube;FZ4RjEqfXOg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ4RjEqfXOg[/video]


Here is also a long version for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymCgHPu7Nz4

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Probably from their carnal Prince (Joseph), and the web site escape from reality.

Gr8grace is more Free Grace than hyper grace. He rejects a number of hyper grace teachings.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Gr8grace is more Free Grace than hyper grace. He rejects a number of hyper grace teachings.

Those cult movements and false doctrines of carnally minded men are all "another gospel" to me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

it does not say they recieved the holy spirit. thats adding to the word.

It says they tasted anyone who goes to church or hangs around true children of God tasts the holy spirit, it does not mean they are saved.

Christ tasted death. Same word as Hebrews 6:5. Using your logic Christ didn't really die.

but we see Jesus, for a short [time] made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God he might taste death on behalf of everyone. Hebrews 2:9

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:5​

G1089 γεύομαι geuomai (ghyoo'-om-ai) v.
1. to taste

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those cult movements and false doctrines of carnally minded men are all "another gospel" to me.

And he has me supposedly "on ignore" for bearing false witness.


Mods. can we do somethign about this please. It is getting out of hand!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ tasted death. Same word as Hebrews 6:5. Using your logic Christ didn't really die.

but we see Jesus, for a short [time] made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God he might taste death on behalf of everyone. Hebrews 2:9

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:5​

G1089 γεύομαι geuomai (ghyoo'-om-ai) v.
1. to taste

That does not prove anything.

you can not taste death unless you die, nd even then, If you suffer a horrible loss because a loved one dies, even this is debatable whether you tasted it also or not.

You can taste the HS without having him in you, It is called blessing by association with believers.

If the HS is blessing me, Anyone in contact with me is blessed also.. It is called what God gives in excess, So much so, that it flowed out to other people..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

dude, if your going to judge people based on things you read outside of scripture yourself. Stop judging others who do the same thing..

The point was that Greek scholars can and do come up with rules and explanations that support their theology. So the fact that he posted what some supposed expert said is really meaningless.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

lol.. are you serious? If you deny the words of Christ, You reject him. You do not claim to have faith in someone, yet deny his words.. I think this is your problem, You do not know what it means to have true salvic faith in him.. [/B]

But that's exactly what you say you do. You say you believe in Christ, yet you deny that you can do his words (law, will).

 

[Grace777x70]

Christ tasted death. Same word as Hebrews 6:5. Using your logic Christ didn't really die.

but we see Jesus, for a short [time] made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God he might taste death on behalf of everyone. Hebrews 2:9

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:5​

G1089 γεύομαι geuomai (ghyoo'-om-ai) v.
1. to taste

There is a difference between tasting and drinking......Jesus knew of this truth too..

Matthew 27:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

[SUP]28 [/SUP] for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

John 7:37-38 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, anddrink.

[SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14[/SUP] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give himshall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

You posted before that Jesus' words and commands were not a part of the NT but OT, so that proves you are trying to "filter" out all parts that call for an obedient walk of faith. And by the way, no one here in these forums is preaching we are justified and saved by "our own self righteous works". But this is the straw man you and your group keep trying to prop up constantly against those who disagree with your "filtered" out doctrine.

You talk about others trying to slander and bring false accusations against you and the Hyper grace movement, but you are one of the worst ones who constantly tries to suggest that those who believe in an obedient walk of faith are preaching either "legalism" or "works Salvationism" or DIY "self righteousness" which is nothing more than slander and false accusations directed toward us. You judge others of what you yourself practice on a regular basis, but now you have been warned.

Speaking of the blotting out of the book Moses mentions and in the context of that back and forth back there and the obedient walk as you point out, and seeing Moses being a servant for a testimony of those things that were to be spoken after (Heb 3:5) even here Christ says also

Rev 3:5 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Speaks of the blotting out

Rev 3:6 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Seeing as many walk as enemies of the same and although you didnt bring in Moses into the conversation that was tossed in to serve as sort of a monkey wrench in the very context of the the book, even of life (where the blotting out can be shown) as is shown there also (even in Jesus) the Father and his angels in respects to confessing their names before them

As Jesus says here also (which is directly connected to both Jesus and His words) here

Mark 8:39 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Then look up being ashamed as shown in Paul and according to what "is heard" (even the word spoken) John mentions when encouring what they have "heard" that they also would not be ashamed in the same.

Better yet here is a few

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Abide in him and his words, John is speaking of what they heard (1 John 2:24)

1John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Not to be ashamed, again, ashamed of what (as it is showing between them)? First part only

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed,

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Jesus Christ and His words (whose doctrine was not his, but the Father's who sent him) and likewise themselves and the doctrine itself as Paul said to Tim,

1 Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

For what profit is this?

Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

As Paul said accordingly

1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So I agree

 

[Grace777x70]

It's vitally important to look at all scriptures in their context to see what they were actually talking about in each instance....take a scripture out of it's context and that text could con you.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a great grace-based teaching on Sardis..the zombie Church..

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/11/incomplete-deeds-the-zombie-church-of-sardis-rev-31-6/


Incomplete Deeds: The Zombie Church of Sardis (Rev 3:1-6)

What a wonderful thing for a church to get a letter from Jesus! The seven churches of Revelations 1-3 were a real mixed bag with some getting rebukes and others encouragement, but all were blessed. Even the churches that were mucking around with the things of God were blessed because they were being warned. They were being given a chance to repent. These letters say as much about the mercy and goodness of God as they do the badness of certain people.

When we read these letters it is essential that we ask two questions: What is Jesus saying in light of the finished work of the cross? And who is he speaking to? If we fail to rightly divide the word we can end up getting the wrong message. For instance, consider what Jesus says to the church at Sardis:

“I have not found your deeds complete” (Rev 3:2).

The issue of deeds comes up in several of these letters. At different times Jesus says, “I know your deeds,” or “your deeds are incomplete,” or “I will repay you according to your deeds.”

So what are these deeds that Jesus is talking about?

If we were living under the old covenant, we would no doubt define these deeds in terms of the 10 commandments plus the other 600 or so sundry Levitical laws. Today some might say they are the deeds that “prove repentance” or they are works of obedience, as in, “we should do what the Bible says.” Okay, but do we obey everything in the Bible including the law? If not, how do we know when our deeds are complete? At what point is repentance proved?

No, Jesus did not go to the cross so that we could get the chance to work for our salvation. Some people think Christianity is about rules and regulations, but that’s not grace. No, Jesus “worked” so that we would not have to. He died, so that we might enter his rest unencumbered by the heavy yoke of religion.

Someone once asked Jesus, what must we do to do the works of God? Jesus replied,

“The work of God is this: to believe in the one he sent” (Jn 6:29).

What is our divine occupation? It is believing in the finished work of Jesus and “working” that out in our lives to the point where the supernatural becomes natural and our broken world is restored. This was no one off claim either. From the very beginning of his ministry Jesus consistently preached, “repent and believe the good news” (Mk 1:15).

What does Jesus want you to do? He wants you to repent and believe the good news. And he wants you to tell other people the good news so they have a chance to repent and believe too.

If you think that is too simple, that we also obey Jesus’ commandments, consider what he commanded us to do:

“And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ… ” (1 Jn 3:23)

Here in the church at Sardis was a group of people who heard the good news but had not repented and did not believe. They were busy doing churchy stuff but it was all dead works. They had a reputation of being alive but Jesus wasn’t fooled. “You are dead. Wake up!” I call them the church of the living-dead, but really they were just dead.

Are you surprised to learn that there are unbelievers in the church? You shouldn’t be. Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian. You can preach, prophesy, cast out demons and perform signs and wonders without ever knowing Christ (Mt 7:23). It’s not going to church or leading a church that counts, it’s whether you have repented and put your faith in Jesus.

In many of the letters to the New Testament churches there are sections either addressed to unbelievers or warning the saints about the influence of unbelievers among them. The letter to the church at Sardis is no exception. How do we know for sure there were some unbelievers in the church at Sardis? Because Jesus said they were dead and in danger of judgment.


What message did Jesus have for the saints in Sardis?

“They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.” (Rev 3:4-5)

Those who preach a works-based gospel – which is no gospel at all – have used this verse to burden Christians with unholy demands for religious works. They say things like, “you’ve got to perform for Jesus lest he find your deeds incomplete.” Or they say, “if you don’t overcome to the end, Jesus will blot out your name from the book of life.” Honestly, it’s as if the cross made no difference at all!

Why would Jesus – who nailed the law to the cross and died so that we might live free from its demands – suddenly turn around and start laying law on his church?

In this passage Jesus gives Christians the most wonderful assurance of their salvation. He says, “I will never blot out their names from the book of life.” To this the confused preacher replies, “Watch out Jesus might be tricking us, he might yet do what he just said he would never do.” It’s ludicrous!

Jesus not only died for us but he lives for us that we might be holy and blameless. The riches of his love for us are not bound up in threats and conditions. He “performed” so that we don’t have to. Just as Jesus “worked” on our behalf, so he has overcome on our behalf:

“In the world you have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (Jn 16:33)

If you are in Christ, you have already overcome the world because he has overcome the world (1 Jn 4:4). Trials and tribulations may entangle and overcome sinners (2 Pet 2:20), but they cannot overcome you. You may not feel like an overcomer. The circumstances of your life may be trying to tell you that you are not an overcomer. But they are lying. They are speaking from a worldly point of view. We are from God and he says we are more than conquerors through Christ who loved us (Rms 8:37). The world may rise up against you, but Almighty God is for you! The entire world may try and condemn you but God himself justifies you (Rms 8:33).

The next time circumstances or people try to lay guilt on you saying you must do this and that to overcome, respond with this: “I believe that Jesus is God’s Son. In him I have already overcome the world!” (1 Jn 5:5).

The good news is not that you have to work hard to rescue yourself. The good news is that God himself has rescued you and qualified you and brought you into the kingdom of the Son he loves (Col 1:12). God looks at you clothed with Christ and says, “you are worthy and your deeds are perfectly complete!”

 

[RBA238]

First, there is no such thing as "Once Saved/ Always Saved". Please kindly read what Apostle Paul stated: I Corinthians 9 verse 27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY."
If Paul beleived in "Once Saved/ Always Saved", then why would he be concerned about becoming a CASTAWAY, rather then going to heaven, for doing wrong things after he got converted?....I rest my case.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, there is no such thing as "Once Saved/ Always Saved". Please kindly read what Apostle Paul stated: I Corinthians 9 verse 27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY."
If Paul beleived in "Once Saved/ Always Saved", then why would he be concerned about becoming a CASTAWAY, rather then going to heaven, for doing wrong things after he got converted?....I rest my case.

paul was not talking about eternal life in this passage, He was talking about being a hypocrite.. And losing his ability to teach others..

OSAS is just another term for eternal life..The belief in what Jesus said in John 6, that whoever believes in him will never die, Live forever, and be raised by him on the last day.

Paul taught eternal life. so he taught OSAS

 

[iwant2serve]

I have answers to them but osas find ways to deny that a person can walk away from God and return to sin. Just as the prodigal son did and his father considered him to be dead but then said he is alive again. Considered him lost but then found.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have answers to them but osas find ways to deny that a person can walk away from God and return to sin. Just as the prodigal son did and his father considered him to be dead but then said he is alive again. Considered him lost but then found.

The prodigal son never stopped being the son.

He was still the son, You do not just epty your fathers blood out of your veins, Your still your fathers son.

People forget that when trying to interpret jesus words concerning the son. The point jesus was making was what it looks like when we walk away, And what brings us back. Not that we can lose salvation.

 

[valiant]

First, there is no such thing as "Once Saved/ Always Saved". Please kindly read what Apostle Paul stated: I Corinthians 9 verse 27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY."
If Paul beleived in "Once Saved/ Always Saved", then why would he be concerned about becoming a CASTAWAY, rather then going to heaven, for doing wrong things after he got converted?....I rest my case.

Case rejected. Why should Paul being 'disapproved' mean that he was no longer saved? It meant that he had lost his reward.

 

[Grace777x70]

First, there is no such thing as "Once Saved/ Always Saved". Please kindly read what Apostle Paul stated: I Corinthians 9 verse 27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY."
If Paul beleived in "Once Saved/ Always Saved", then why would he be concerned about becoming a CASTAWAY, rather then going to heaven, for doing wrong things after he got converted?....I rest my case.

Paul in context here is talking about being an apostle and he would be a castaway in relation to his ministry. The whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 9 is Paul defending his apostleship. Read from chapter 1 until the end and you will see what Paul is talking about.

This scripture below has nothing to do with salvation in relation to going to heaven because you are in Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air
;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

In the 1611 the KJV it says "castaway" but the word now means "disqualified" Paul would be disqualified for ministry if he didn't have his body under control.

God Himself through Jesus ahs qualified us for being wiht Him.

Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Here we go,

ISIT is in context here and is followed with the next reply

Shows you are the one kicking in Moses words concerning the LORD blotting someones name out of the book here

You then add how one should use a Jesus finished work filter, and thats what I was doing, to your created context (keeping in mind Heb 3:5) and coming up under your post

Posting...

Rev 3:5 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Speaks of the blotting out

Rev 3:6 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


And so I was also keeping an eye on ISIT's context you seemed to find problematic on a couple of fronts and I thought, you can very easily unite into the post the obedience according to the walk into the blotting out (not according to Moses) but rather according to Jesus Christ (and still remain in an area of "finished work filters" you speak of). But drag in a little gospel concerning both him and his words and tied that in and make the point by remianing in that context which can also be shown in accord with words/doctrine (that heard) and how Jesus using "ashamed" and how that ties in to agree in the others as well. I felt they confirmed one another.

But you went on to say how vitally important it is to stay in context (while you were shifting the context of the conversation) and all the while meeting the context, Jesus words (and the blotting out) AFTER Jesus had finished his work on the cross when I posted what he was saying in one of the churches (which pertained to the blotting out of the book of life there also) as Moses makes mention of being blotted out of a book, and keeping in mind Heb 3:5 which speaks of Moses as a servant to a testimony of what would be spoken after

And then you come up behind, and say

And clearly ISIT was in (on the same page kind of) context (when it doesnt have to be on the same page (or paragraph of the same prophet to be in context to prove points) even as Paul demonstrates this very same in his own writings.

As far as the context of a book one can be blotted out of, such as the one you brought into the post and of Moses making mention of it, I simply posted Jesus mention of the same (and the mention of such a book after the work of the cross had been finished) as you seem to prefer.

I wont chase my own tail here with many more back and forths with you though.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here we go,

ISIT is in context here and is followed with the next reply

Shows you are the one kicking in Moses words concerning the LORD blotting someones name out of the book here

You then add how one should use a Jesus finished work filter, and thats what I was doing, to your created context (keeping in mind Heb 3:5) and coming up under your post

Posting...

Rev 3:5 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Speaks of the blotting out

Rev 3:6 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


And so I was also keeping an eye on ISIT's context you seemed to find problematic on a couple of fronts and I thought, you can very easily unite into the post the obedience according to the walk into the blotting out (not according to Moses) but rather according to Jesus Christ (and still remain in an area of "finished work filters" you speak of). But drag in a little gospel concerning both him and his words and tied that in and make the point by remianing in that context which can also be shown in accord with words/doctrine (that heard) and how Jesus using "ashamed" and how that ties in to agree in the others as well. I felt they confirmed one another.

But you went on to say how vitally important it is to stay in context (while you were shifting the context of the conversation) and all the while meeting the context, Jesus words (and the blotting out) AFTER Jesus had finished his work on the cross when I posted what he was saying in one of the churches (which pertained to the blotting out of the book of life there also) as Moses makes mention of being blotted out of a book, and keeping in mind Heb 3:5 which speaks of Moses as a servant to a testimony of what would be spoken after

And then you come up behind, and say

And clearly ISIT was in (on the same page kind of) context (when it doesnt have to be on the same page (or paragraph of the same prophet to be in context to prove points) even as Paul demonstrates this very same in his own writings.

As far as the context of a book one can be blotted out of, such as the one you brought into the post and of Moses making mention of it, I simply posted Jesus mention of the same (and the mention of such a book after the work of the cross had been finished) as you seem to prefer.

I wont chase my own tail here with many more back and forths with you though.

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.