Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?

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RBA238

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Paul was once a Jewish Pharisee, on his way to Damascus to persecute, and have imprisoned more Christians. God got his attention, in Acts Chapter 9, and he died on a cross by Roman barbarians, for serving The Lord
"Foxe's Book of Martyrs"...The only people going to heaven, or did exactly what Jesus and his Original Apostles Taught..( Please read: I Timothy 4 verse 16).
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Paul was once a Jewish Pharisee, on his way to Damascus to persecute, and have imprisoned more Christians. God got his attention, in Acts Chapter 9, and he died on a cross by Roman barbarians, for serving The Lord
"Foxe's Book of Martyrs"...The only people going to heaven, or did exactly what Jesus and his Original Apostles Taught..( Please read: I Timothy 4 verse 16).
So I take it your siness, and you do EVERYTHING 24/7 that Jesus and his apostles taught?

Just asking, not tryign to be rude. I need to try to understand what your trying to say. It seems your teaching sinless perfection. Or that people must maintian a standard.. Need to know what that standard is.
 
R

RBA238

Guest
Never stated I never committed a sin since I was saved in 1987...Nor is anyone reading this, can state they never committed any wrongdoing since they were properly converted Asa Born Again child of Jesus. In fact if you read what Apostle John stated in I John 2 verse 1 it confirms this. If we willfully sin, the Bible states also, "There remaineth no more sacrifice for our willful sinning.
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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The verb saved in that verse is in the subjunctive mood, which indicates possibility, but not certainty.

Context, context, context!! (And a knowledge of Greek Grammar would also help!)


I would suggest you get a copy of Daniel Wallace's book "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" before you start spouting off interpretations of Greek syntax and grammar.

"παραδοῦναι τὸν τοιοῦτον τῷ Σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλεθρον τῆς σαρκός, ἵνα τὸ πνεῦμα σωθῇ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ [κυρίου." 1 Cor. 5:5

The word
ἵνα (hina) plus the subjunctive has two possible functions in the sentence. One is "purpose" the other is "Purpose-Result." (There is also a very rare third possibility - "consequence not intended.")

However, in many cases, purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, hence,
ἵνα is used for the result which follows accorded to the purpose of the subject or of God. As in Jewish and pagan thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will. The Semitic mind was notoriously unwilling to draw a sharp dividing line between purpose and consequence.

In other words, NT writers employ the language to reflect their theology:

"what God purposes is what happens, consequently,
ἵνα is used to express both divine purpose and the result."

Wallace gives the example of John 3:16, which employs
ἵνα and two subjunctive verbs follow. "The fact that the subjunctive is all but required after ἵνα does not, of course, argue for uncertainty." John 3:16 unequivocally states that if we believe we ARE saved, even though the verbs are in the subjunctive.

The subjunctive after
ἵνα does not necessarily imply any doubt about the fulfillment of the verbal action on the part of the speaker. Further, many instances of purpose clauses shed off into result as well, especially when the divine will is involved. In fact, the verb σωθῇ or sothae, is in the Aorist tense. It is not talking about the probability or possibility of some future event. It is being used to show the divine purpose/result.

So
, in context, in English:

"
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

For
though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 1 Cor. 5:1-5



Paul is talking about a specific circumstance, with a specific purpose and consequence. This is about a man who was committing adultery with his father's wife. The instructions on how to deal with this person are to hand him over to Satan. (Presumably disfellowship him or some sort of physical punishment*??)

If he is thrown out of the congregation, Paul is saying that the purpose/result is that he being saved/delivered/rescued. In fact, God's divine purpose will not be thwarted! In the following passage in a follow up letter, ie 2 Corinthians. we in fact see that the man has in fact repented, and Paul urges the congregation in Corinth to restore him.

"
Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you.6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.

9
For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.
10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs." 2 Cor. 2:5-11


So the purpose of Paul's first admonition was to hand the man over to Satan. God's intention was completely fulfilled, with the result that the man was restored!

What a glorious study in the forgiving grace and the restoration and reconciliation of a believer.
Because the man was saved, but he was committing an egarious sin, it was necessary for some discipline. The discipline, of course, resulted in the divine purpose for the man being fulfilled, and that he was restored to the congregation.

So Paul could not and did not suggest this man was going to hell. Paul did correct his sin, and give some consequences that would have the result of restoration.

You simply cannot pull 1 Cor. 5:5 out of context not only of this chapter but also of 2 Cor. 2 and in fact the entire message of the NT.

The Greek word
ἵνα means "that, in order that" and does not imply a condition or possibility that everyone generally "might possibly be saved" if they have sinned. Certainly we can apply the principle to other places where correction is meted out, with the purpose/result that someone who believes can be restored to the congregation when they repent of their sin.

What we cannot do is take one very simple generality "all subjunctives imply only a possibility" when in this case, the subordinate conjunction
ἵνα definitely states that the subjunctive verbal "declares God's intention, which is always restoration and reconciliation!"

*Cleon L. Rogers Jr. & Cleon L. Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament. Pg 357

Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basis: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament. pgs. 471-474
 
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John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. :)
Amen, and this is what it speaks of Moses as

Heb 3:3 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

As Jesus said,

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

As He wrote by the mouth of God

Duet 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Moses writings speak even of the words in Christ's mouth,

And Jesus says,

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his (Moses) writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Since Moses also writes in the same breath (next verse)

Duet 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

As Jesus said,

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Next verse (him or his words Jesus as Duet 18:19 states)

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And because that is what his Father said as Jesus said,

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

As God had said, by Moses in Duet 18:18 second part of that verse
that he would

... "put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him".

As Jesus confirms
(John 12:49)

...he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


 
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RBA238

Guest
I can go down a list of things one must do, to qualify as a true converted child of God, but I will save it in another Thread, at a later date.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I can go down a list of things one must do, to qualify as a true converted child of God, but I will save it in another Thread, at a later date.

Please do. lets not wait, And it better be a complete list..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Never stated I never committed a sin since I was saved in 1987...Nor is anyone reading this, can state they never committed any wrongdoing since they were properly converted Asa Born Again child of Jesus. In fact if you read what Apostle John stated in I John 2 verse 1 it confirms this. If we willfully sin, the Bible states also, "There remaineth no more sacrifice for our willful sinning.


What about the apostle john when he says a child of God can not sin, And anyone who sins has never seen god or known him.

so may I ask,, If you have to do exactly what Jesus did, and he never sinned, How can you ever be saved?
 
P

Palmoni37

Guest
Is the difference being expressed one of semantics? My study has lead to believe that 'saved' and 'salvation' is the present experience NOW, not the final hope. When Jesus spoke of 'saving' and 'forgiving' he uses the present active, 'is saving' and 'is forgiving'. The final hope is resurrection as predominately preached in the early church, not 'salvation.

Through lack of faith or endurance I can lose my sense of salvation, but not the resurrected hope to glory with Him.

It can be argued that the plan of God is to separate and then reunite as with Israel, cast of and then reconciled, the church is left by Christ that he might return again, Eve separated from Adam to be married, the prodigal son, the whole of mankind and God, and even Christ left the Father to return in glory to show us 'the way'.

We can lose the 'rescue from the worries and troubles of the world, our 'salvation' (Gk soteria - rescue) but not the promised predestined reward of resurrection.

Yours, and His




 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Is the difference being expressed one of semantics? My study has lead to believe that 'saved' and 'salvation' is the present experience NOW, not the final hope. When Jesus spoke of 'saving' and 'forgiving' he uses the present active, 'is saving' and 'is forgiving'. The final hope is resurrection as predominately preached in the early church, not 'salvation.

Through lack of faith or endurance I can lose my sense of salvation, but not the resurrected hope to glory with Him.

It can be argued that the plan of God is to separate and then reunite as with Israel, cast of and then reconciled, the church is left by Christ that he might return again, Eve separated from Adam to be married, the prodigal son, the whole of mankind and God, and even Christ left the Father to return in glory to show us 'the way'.

We can lose the 'rescue from the worries and troubles of the world, our 'salvation' (Gk soteria - rescue) but not the promised predestined reward of resurrection.

Yours, and His




we are talking about being saved, Saved from Gods eternal wrath. Not saved, as saved from the problems of life.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
Context, context, context!! (And a knowledge of Greek Grammar would also help!)


I would suggest you get a copy of Daniel Wallace's book "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" before you start spouting off interpretations of Greek syntax and grammar.

"παραδοῦναι τὸν τοιοῦτον τῷ Σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλεθρον τῆς σαρκός, ἵνα τὸ πνεῦμα σωθῇ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ [κυρίου." 1 Cor. 5:5

The word
ἵνα (hina) plus the subjunctive has two possible functions in the sentence. One is "purpose" the other is "Purpose-Result." (There is also a very rare third possibility - "consequence not intended.")

However, in many cases, purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, hence,
ἵνα is used for the result which follows accorded to the purpose of the subject or of God. As in Jewish and pagan thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will. The Semitic mind was notoriously unwilling to draw a sharp dividing line between purpose and consequence.

In other words, NT writers employ the language to reflect their theology:

"what God purposes is what happens, consequently,
ἵνα is used to express both divine purpose and the result."

Wallace gives the example of John 3:16, which employs
ἵνα and two subjunctive verbs follow. "The fact that the subjunctive is all but required after ἵνα does not, of course, argue for uncertainty." John 3:16 unequivocally states that if we believe we ARE saved, even though the verbs are in the subjunctive.

The subjunctive after
ἵνα does not necessarily imply any doubt about the fulfillment of the verbal action on the part of the speaker. Further, many instances of purpose clauses shed off into result as well, especially when the divine will is involved. In fact, the verb σωθῇ or sothae, is in the Aorist tense. It is not talking about the probability or possibility of some future event. It is being used to show the divine purpose/result.

So
, in context, in English:

"
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

For
though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 1 Cor. 5:1-5



Paul is talking about a specific circumstance, with a specific purpose and consequence. This is about a man who was committing adultery with his father's wife. The instructions on how to deal with this person are to hand him over to Satan. (Presumably disfellowship him or some sort of physical punishment*??)

If he is thrown out of the congregation, Paul is saying that the purpose/result is that he being saved/delivered/rescued. In fact, God's divine purpose will not be thwarted! In the following passage in a follow up letter, ie 2 Corinthians. we in fact see that the man has in fact repented, and Paul urges the congregation in Corinth to restore him.

"
Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you.6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.

9
For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.
10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs." 2 Cor. 2:5-11


So the purpose of Paul's first admonition was to hand the man over to Satan. God's intention was completely fulfilled, with the result that the man was restored!

What a glorious study in the forgiving grace and the restoration and reconciliation of a believer.
Because the man was saved, but he was committing an egarious sin, it was necessary for some discipline. The discipline, of course, resulted in the divine purpose for the man being fulfilled, and that he was restored to the congregation.

So Paul could not and did not suggest this man was going to hell. Paul did correct his sin, and give some consequences that would have the result of restoration.

You simply cannot pull 1 Cor. 5:5 out of context not only of this chapter but also of 2 Cor. 2 and in fact the entire message of the NT.

The Greek word
ἵνα means "that, in order that" and does not imply a condition or possibility that everyone generally "might possibly be saved" if they have sinned. Certainly we can apply the principle to other places where correction is meted out, with the purpose/result that someone who believes can be restored to the congregation when they repent of their sin.

What we cannot do is take one very simple generality "all subjunctives imply only a possibility" when in this case, the subordinate conjunction
ἵνα definitely states that the subjunctive verbal "declares God's intention, which is always restoration and reconciliation!"

*Cleon L. Rogers Jr. & Cleon L. Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament. Pg 357

Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basis: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament. pgs. 471-474
Love,love,love it sister.:D
 
Nov 22, 2015
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John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. :)
That's a great scripture and in context you can see that Jesus was referring to the self-righteous Pharisees - they had set their hopes on them "doing the law"...thus creating and maintaining their own salvation by what they do.

Jesus was the greatest law preacher to those that think they can by their own works achieve righteousness and the greatest grace preacher to those that know they need a Savior.

Just before that Jesus was saying that they searched the scriptures because they thought in the scriptures they had life - but the scriptures all point to Jesus and our hope and life is built on His finished work for us alone.

The Pharisees were not basing eternal life on what Jesus and His work alone for salvation but on their own ways which they thought were Moses' too.

John 5:39-40 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

[SUP]40 [/SUP] and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


John 5:45-47 (NASB)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

[SUP]46 [/SUP] "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

[SUP]47 [/SUP] "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"


 
R

RBA238

Guest
Please read the Story Jesus tells us about the Five Wise, and 5 Foolish Virgins, in Matthew 25 verses 1-13....The "Virgins" were Children of God who were converted, but 5 played Church, and 5 took their conversion seriously, and served God with fear and trembling and Love, and dedication. When The Rapture of the Children takes place, only the 5 Wise got taken up the 5 Foolish got left behind, read it yourself.
 
Feb 11, 2016
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Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto
you of your brethren,
like unto me;
him shall ye hear.
 
Feb 11, 2016
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Luke 24:27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures
the things concerning himself.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto
you of your brethren,
like unto me;
him shall ye hear.
This way (off the above)

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus even refers to them as Moses writings, and likewise it says,

Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house,
as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after
;


Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we,
if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

And so we see as earlier mentioned, that

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past
unto the fathers by the prophets,


Verses in these last days

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom
he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
 
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RBA238

Guest
Sorry, you are confusing The OT with The NT. The story Jesus told has to do with The Church age, it has no bearing on Old Testament Laws.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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(snip)

Verses in these last days

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom
he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Thank you for those scriptures. I especially love the one there in Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)

[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the true nature of our good, loving Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father. Jesus came to reveal the true heart of our Father to us.

So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the true nature of our Father will be inaccurate. Our perception of the true heart of God can develop as we see Jesus and what He does while on this earth.

If we want to see the Father's will - watch Jesus what Jesus does.

If we want to see how we are disciplined - watch Jesus with the disciples

Jesus is perfect theology!

 
Feb 11, 2016
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Thank you for those scriptures. I especially love the one there in Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)

[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the true nature of our good, loving Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father. Jesus came to reveal the true heart of our Father to us.

So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the true nature of our Father will be inaccurate. Our perception of the true heart of God can develop as we see Jesus and what He does while on this earth.

If we want to see the Father's will - watch Jesus what Jesus does.

If we want to see how we are disciplined - watch Jesus with the disciples

Jesus is perfect theology!

Yes, you might not approve of a book one can be blotted out of whether Moses speaks of it or Jesus, but its shown in both places
 
R

RBA238

Guest
Why don't you take a go at it, and explain the Story Jesus was telling his Apostles. Let us hear your Analogy..
 
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